So has the numbers been crunched, will Nemesis topple Momentum?

[Shirofune]

Because momentum is hard work? It's not, and for the little amount of extra work it takes over nemesis, it is overperforming outside of ST.

Edit: and talents are about having a choice, there isn't supposed to be an option so heavily dominated like momentum, sure in ST you have a choice, momentum is still better but not disgustingly so, but for ANY aoe and cleave it's not, it's not about rewarding skilled play when you face fuck everyone who doesn't have momentum even when playing like a retard, not pooling energy, not using VR atall.

If you want to be 15%+ ahead on AoE and cleave just because you took a talent, it needs to be far, far harder to pull off, i'd say it's about right as is on pure tank and spank, nemesis is a viable option, outside of that? NAHHHHH.

You're the only one that says that Momentum is not hard to pull off, yet I don't see any proofs you're using it, overperforming the average DH.

Yeah, it must be easy to:

1/ Keep control of the 4 seconds windows, managing your fury so you can actually do stuff on them.
2/ Control the cooldown on both VR and FR, to maximize momentum uptime
3/ Learn how to react to hitboxes, so you actually don't exit the enemy hitbox or lose the min time going back to it (less than 1 GCD)
4/ React to the terrain, knowing where you can FR or VR safely without getting hit by AoE. Learning which walls you can FR/VR to without being displaced instead of falling to your death (Cenarius)
5/ Camera turning for VR. Something no other class has to do.

Yeah. It is easy as fuck, almost the same effort as Nemesis, lol. Use and forget, use FR on CD, gg.

Stop being delusional.

[mitre27]

You're the only one that says that Momentum is not hard to pull off, yet I don't see any proofs you're using it, overperforming the average DH.

Yeah, it must be easy to:

1/ Keep control of the 4 seconds windows, managing your fury so you can actually do stuff on them.
2/ Control the cooldown on both VR and FR, to maximize momentum uptime
3/ Learn how to react to hitboxes, so you actually don't exit the enemy hitbox or lose the min time going back to it (less than 1 GCD)
4/ React to the terrain, knowing where you can FR or VR safely without getting hit by AoE. Learning which walls you can FR/VR to without being displaced instead of falling to your death (Cenarius)
5/ Camera turning for VR. Something no other class has to do.

Yeah. It is easy as fuck, almost the same effort as Nemesis, lol. Use and forget, use FR on CD, gg.

Stop being delusional.

Nothing you said is hard atall rofl.

1. An addon like weak auras makes this beyond simple, one for fury, one for momentum timer...
2. How is this hard? FR has two stacks so it's not like you even have to make a choice on which skill to use.
3. Most bosses have wide hitboxes so this isn't really an issue, if it is, it's also an issue for those without momemtum fel rushing.
4. Again, fel rush is used without momentum so this would apply to nemesis also.
5. Not sure if this one is even serious, sure it could be tedious if you're a keyboard turner, but turning your camera slightly with your mouse before hitting VR is a joke.


I'd say there are enough reasons to justify how far ahead momentum is on pure ST fights, like you said, it's harder to pull off (Though still not that hard) but on AoE and cleave fights no, sorry even if you don't use VR atall (Which is the only slightly tricky part of momentum) you destroy nemesis.

Also i'm not the only one that says momentum is not hard to pull off by the way, most good DH would argue that it's not, though they wouldn't be arguing for it to be nerfed.

This isn't the ideal change for me, i'd rather they make nemesis 20% as is, but be a self buff or apply an aura to the target increasing damage to nearby enemies, it would still be behind well played momentum, but it wouldn't be useless on AoE and cleave.

[Shirofune]

I guess there's no point arguing this anymore.

If you think Momo is easy to pull off, then you should've no issues whatsoever and you shouldn't complain about Nemesis being behind, like pretty much EVERY DEMON HUNTER that can handle his shit.

I'm out.

[Killface1]

Momentum isn't hard. I'm not the number one demon hunter in the world, but I have more parses inside of the top 90-95% then outside of it, and to reiterate, momentum is quite easy. Its an extremely easy priority system; setup fury for burst window, and then spend it in burst window. Keep must use abilities on cooldown.

Nemesis is also quite easy. If you think this game is hard, but want something more difficult, I recommend pacman, pong, tetris, candycrush, or literally any other game in the world. The reason to play this game is to have fun in a social environment working with a bunch of other players to get something done. The skill has never been in playing a class or spec, the skill has been getting 20 players to be on the same page together.

Acting like momentum is the gold standard for difficulty and that its some great achievement to be able to hit 55-60% is silly. The only people not hitting those numbers are people who don't care enough to setup weakauras and timers to track things. I get what you're saying - nemesis isn't hard. I agree. It isn't. But neither is momentum, and some variety in optimal talents on a boss by boss basis is never a bad thing. I think it adds more complexity to the game to have to approach each fight differently and have a different set of priorities per boss than it does to force everybody to play the same talents on all bosses.

Edit: I think you're getting the following thing confused: the difference between a player who's bad at using momentum and a player who is good at momentum is very large. Players who are bad at it (momentum) are gonna sit at 230k dps. Players who are good at it are going to sit at 450k dps in the same gear. Artificially, that seems like there's a high skill ceiling, but honestly that just isn't the case. There's no floor with momentum, so sub-optimal play is extremely punishing. It isn't difficult to play optimally (or close to it), but it is very punishing if you don't. With nemesis, there's a much higher floor for low end skill players. Are you so set on epeen size that not only does your spec have to be good in comparison to other specs, but that you actively want other demon hunters who are more casual to play poorly? I don't get it, I don't particularly mind if some other demon hunter that's not that good is posting numbers that are within 10% of mine instead of 40% different than mine. Optimal cooldown usage, fight understanding, positioning, and button priority is still rewarded with nemesis. It's just not quite as punishing if you're a casual.

[Deleted]

Momentum is easy...until you get to mythic Odyn where it is fucking retarded to pull off

Fact is, all EN fights are stupid easy for any decent player, to be honest. So there has not been a real "check" to see whether Momentum is hard top ull off or not. On Mythic Odyn, it's fucking nightmare (and I like that).

The main issue here is that people act like the ~7% DPS difference between Nemesis and Momentum on live is too much. And it is not. 7% between a talent you have to actively incorporate into your playstyle vs. one that you press every 2 minutes is completely okay.

Players who are bad at it (momentum) are gonna sit at 230k dps. Players who are good at it are going to sit at 450k dps in the same gear.

That just makes zero sense. The difference can be 14% at most - if one uses it perfectly and the otehr one not at all. Unless one player is doign everything else wrong, too.

[Killface1]

That just makes zero sense. The difference can be 14% at most - if one uses it perfectly and the otehr one not at all. Unless one player is doign everything else wrong, too.

You're assuming that players are filling in GCD's with momentum. If somebody is doing it poorly (which theres lots of room) they wont be next to the boss to be hitting it, they'll be spending 2/3 momentum burst window GCD's on running back in. With nemesis you're always *on* the boss. With momentum, there is a lot of room to not be on the boss, and have empty GCDs during burst windows. I donno where you got "at most, 14% different" from, because getting a 20% buff for 4s 30% of the time doesn't do you much good if you're not even near the boss to hit him. There's a ton of room for bad rushes and retreats to screw your damage over with momentum.

[Zyky]

Nemesis will never topple Momentum when there's a hard swap to something or when you have multiple targets during an encounter.

[mitre27]

You're assuming that players are filling in GCD's with momentum. If somebody is doing it poorly (which theres lots of room) they wont be next to the boss to be hitting it, they'll be spending 2/3 momentum burst window GCD's on running back in. With nemesis you're always *on* the boss. With momentum, there is a lot of room to not be on the boss, and have empty GCDs during burst windows. I donno where you got "at most, 14% different" from, because getting a 20% buff for 4s 30% of the time doesn't do you much good if you're not even near the boss to hit him. There's a ton of room for bad rushes and retreats to screw your damage over with momentum.

Why are you always on the boss with nemesis but not momentum? You still fel rush on CD as nemesis, also throw glaive is a godsend for that sort of situation.

[Raiju]

Fact is, all EN fights are stupid easy for any decent player, to be honest. So there has not been a real "check" to see whether Momentum is hard top ull off or not. On Mythic Odyn, it's fucking nightmare (and I like that).

While it leads to lower parses our kit practically makes us a ranged on odyn, being able to deal with any add as required to make sure things are going smoothly in the fight.

[Shirofune]

While it leads to lower parses our kit practically makes us a ranged on odyn, being able to deal with any add as required to make sure things are going smoothly in the fight.

Wot?

We still Momo in the adds, you know, so we've to keep those FR charges. It's actually painful as fuck to get branded and having to stand still unless someone stuns the add.

Thanks god I don't have the ring yet so I go Felblade for that boss. It makes it somewhat bearable, lol.

Mythic Odyn is probably the worst designed boss Blizzard has ever done, and I didn't think there could be a worse boss than Ascendant Council, that simply penalized you for being a melee in the third phase, spawning pools on him, with all the other bullshit amount of movement required in the previous phases to handle the debuffs and the orb.

I mean, why are spread/range mechanics still a thing for melee? We have to stand behind the boss at all times because of parries (one mechanic that doesn't make sense at all now that hit is removed), why do we also have to handle another mechanic that penalizes us just by the fact we're melee?

How about spears spawning on melee, forcing every melee out of action?

And if we get into DH specifics is even worse. Momentum while you're branded? No, no. Momentum while horn of valor is casting? No, no.
Momentum while 8 trillion fragments that sometimes bug, get invisible, or just go through the bosses, hiding them, are flying around? Yeah, if you're good enough to dodge them and you don't get hit by an invisible one.

[Ansi]

Momentum is fun, but there should be better and more worthy alternatives than Nemesis and Fel Eruption.

That's the real issue, in my opinion.

[Deix-EU]

Momentum isn't hard. I'm not the number one demon hunter in the world, but I have more parses inside of the top 90-95% then outside of it, and to reiterate, momentum is quite easy. Its an extremely easy priority system; setup fury for burst window, and then spend it in burst window. Keep must use abilities on cooldown.

Nemesis is also quite easy. If you think this game is hard, but want something more difficult, I recommend pacman, pong, tetris, candycrush, or literally any other game in the world. The reason to play this game is to have fun in a social environment working with a bunch of other players to get something done. The skill has never been in playing a class or spec, the skill has been getting 20 players to be on the same page together.

Acting like momentum is the gold standard for difficulty and that its some great achievement to be able to hit 55-60% is silly. The only people not hitting those numbers are people who don't care enough to setup weakauras and timers to track things. I get what you're saying - nemesis isn't hard. I agree. It isn't. But neither is momentum, and some variety in optimal talents on a boss by boss basis is never a bad thing. I think it adds more complexity to the game to have to approach each fight differently and have a different set of priorities per boss than it does to force everybody to play the same talents on all bosses.

Edit: I think you're getting the following thing confused: the difference between a player who's bad at using momentum and a player who is good at momentum is very large. Players who are bad at it (momentum) are gonna sit at 230k dps. Players who are good at it are going to sit at 450k dps in the same gear. Artificially, that seems like there's a high skill ceiling, but honestly that just isn't the case. There's no floor with momentum, so sub-optimal play is extremely punishing. It isn't difficult to play optimally (or close to it), but it is very punishing if you don't. With nemesis, there's a much higher floor for low end skill players. Are you so set on epeen size that not only does your spec have to be good in comparison to other specs, but that you actively want other demon hunters who are more casual to play poorly? I don't get it, I don't particularly mind if some other demon hunter that's not that good is posting numbers that are within 10% of mine instead of 40% different than mine. Optimal cooldown usage, fight understanding, positioning, and button priority is still rewarded with nemesis. It's just not quite as punishing if you're a casual.

You have the same problem I had at the start of my career. Realizing you're ahead of many people (vast majority). Once I learned I was gifted, I knew my life would change a bit. Understand peeople, their needs and adapt to them instead of thinking what I was doing was "easy" and everyone should do the same. Yeah no, the world doesn't work like this and once I realized it I was more Alliocentric than ever. i.e: you surestimate people globally. It may not hard to pull momentum for some people, like you seem to be, like many people right here on mmo-champ in fact but speaking for the majority I assure you there are many many many DH that don't know how to stay focus on the 4 sec optimum rotation which I compare to a Sprint phase in agile methodology for who knows; intense (wrist problems huh ?)

[Deleted]

Momentum is equally fun to the new fel eruption spec Or demonic spec. There is no given rule,just numbers and ppl should be able to play what they like better instead of being forced into a playstyle for performance. Whatever argument is made on skill is purely subjective as nobody as the same gameplay inclinations.

You're not better or more skilled than any other player that doesn't like momentum but would rather play something where they have more fun and therefore would be far better at.

The criteria of skill level in a game is strongly influenced by how much you ENJOY it.

[Deix-EU]

Momentum is equally fun to the new fel eruption spec Or demonic spec. There is no given rule,just numbers and ppl should be able to play what they like better instead of being forced into a playstyle for performance. Whatever argument is made on skill is purely subjective as nobody as the same gameplay inclinations.

You're not better or more skilled than any other player that doesn't like momentum but would rather play something where they have more fun and therefore would be far better at.

The criteria of skill level in a game is strongly influenced by how much you ENJOY it.

I'll extend it to real life things. It's the same for every domain. You're good at what you like typically. However, not everyone as a sense of feeling for more than 3/4 domains (included video games / theorycraft etc.). Those are atypic (socio-psycho speaking). But, speaking about what is "hard" between another if you like both is not about liking it or not, it's about the model / requirements hidden behind. Fact is momentum requires more focus than other and not everyone can be good at it.

[Deleted]

Same goes for DOT specs , or boring specs , or all specs. Some will enjoy it some won't . Being good is a side effect. For your brain to focus you must enjoy it.

Otherwise it feels like work and we re not talking about a game anymore.

[Deix-EU]

Same goes for DOT specs , or boring specs , or all specs. Some will enjoy it some won't . Being good is a side effect. For your brain to focus you must enjoy it.

Otherwise it feels like work and we re not talking about a game anymore.

Agree but sometimes this is also bidirectional, in fact it's a matter of pilosophical statement. Is this because we are good a some things we like it afterwards ? Or the contrary ? Or both equally ?
You have 2 hours ;D

[Deleted]

Hahaha good one . That could be debated for hours indeed.

[Raiju]

And if we get into DH specifics is even worse. Momentum while you're branded? No, no. Momentum while horn of valor is casting? No, no.
Momentum while 8 trillion fragments that sometimes bug, get invisible, or just go through the bosses, hiding them, are flying around? Yeah, if you're good enough to dodge them and you don't get hit by an invisible one.

Works fine if you position it correctly and back-move while you rush / sideforward while you retreat - to top it off you can stun (I generally hold it as utility to allow people to avoid spears, but it can be used for this too)

Invisible ones are an issue, but I chalk this up to what momentum has always been designed to have as a downside - difficulty to play around some raid mechanics.

I will clarify I meant the Demon Hunter toolkit, specifically our plethora of instant moves (although we should totally be able to glide over all the tiny things in odyns encounter...) to be where we're needed. Yes, momentum by its design runs in conflict with that, but that's the point of the talent.

[ChakanDH]

Wot?

We still Momo in the adds, you know, so we've to keep those FR charges. It's actually painful as fuck to get branded and having to stand still unless someone stuns the add.

Thanks god I don't have the ring yet so I go Felblade for that boss. It makes it somewhat bearable, lol.

Mythic Odyn is probably the worst designed boss Blizzard has ever done, and I didn't think there could be a worse boss than Ascendant Council, that simply penalized you for being a melee in the third phase, spawning pools on him, with all the other bullshit amount of movement required in the previous phases to handle the debuffs and the orb.

I mean, why are spread/range mechanics still a thing for melee? We have to stand behind the boss at all times because of parries (one mechanic that doesn't make sense at all now that hit is removed), why do we also have to handle another mechanic that penalizes us just by the fact we're melee?

How about spears spawning on melee, forcing every melee out of action?

And if we get into DH specifics is even worse. Momentum while you're branded? No, no. Momentum while horn of valor is casting? No, no.
Momentum while 8 trillion fragments that sometimes bug, get invisible, or just go through the bosses, hiding them, are flying around? Yeah, if you're good enough to dodge them and you don't get hit by an invisible one.

I fucking hate that fight - you're right, it might just be the worst fight they have ever done, certainly for melee.

Actually going to give it a shot with nemesis tonight.

[Deleted]

Really loving this whole "If you don't like Momentum you should just play another class".
As if people not liking a talent somehow made them picking that class invalid.
Maybe they're the ones who should reroll if ONE talent makes that much difference to them.
I hope momo get fucking gutted, it makes fights like Odyn and several Mythics needlessly hard.