Pugging M+ as a rogue?

[Sinte]

Is it hard to find groups? No, too many groups going to not find an invite in 5-10 min. Would it be easier as a monk or dh? Yes,immensely. People still underestimate outlaw damage in m+ and even when I can blow any other leather class out of the water on higher mythics, they still take the other classes most of the time just because of the notion.

If you only want to run M+, pick frost dk, dh or mage. They're always wanted,because aoe is king.


At 877 i still get declined out of a +2 because they want lust (even though I'd probably bring more damage than the other two dps lusted 90% of the time). Higher level mythics it really depends on the keystone, I was getting insta invites to 10-12's because of skittish last week.

[Deleted]

I havn't had anyone outdps me on the overall for weeks now, and I'm Outlaw, no ring (nor Sephuz), boots, no bracers, just the gloves for some burst AoE which isn't all that valuable once you get to higher +s. I'm fairly convinced Outlaw has one of the highest, if not the highest, potential for dmg in mythic+ - I reach 650k-750k every single run, depending on the instance, and this is without BiS legendaries. I'm 886 equipped.

We lack utility in form of AoE stuns or CRs, but we do bring a lot of disruption - We can completely shut mobs down from casting. Between Gouge, Blind, BtE, Kick and Vanishing for Cheap Shot, we can stop anything from casting. Good for shutting down mobs during raging on higher +s if you're focus firing (Like a Breaker in Lair).

It is also worth noting that pugging as Outlaw can be a bit of a tough nut to crack at times - As Outlaw your CDs won't always be up at the same time as it was last run, so you may need to vary how you pull, which requires coordination with tanks, though this is only really relevant when attempting to push keys.

I stand firm by my opinion that Outlaw is a "bottom of the top end of m+" specs, and is DEFINITELY a good addition to groups if your setup can accomodate. Does exceptionally well alongside AoE stuns.

Just prior to writing this post I did an EoA14 with DH tank, Dudu healer, Frost DK, WW monk and I - Did it in time with 5 mins to spare, despite multiple wipes.

The DH has the frost bracers and Sephuz - WW had boots and Sephuz - Both are same Ilvl as I am, and I won on the dps meter with 720k overall. Outlaw just can't die, even during pulls that become a clusterfuck of kiting, surviving and not dying to Sand Blasters
Mind you my group isn't made up of exceptional players, but we're above average to say the least, so it isn't just that "well the DK and the WW suck, apparently", cause we're all in 5/7M and 6/7M guilds and are among the best DPSers in said guilds.

TL;DR: Outlaw is a great m+ spec. Spread the word. Extremely sustained damage, does super well with the whole "never stop, keep pulling" attitude. Survives anything. The whole "Too much RNG" is nothing but a crutch for bad players - I am extremely consistent in my damage output over the course of a dungeon, barely moving 10-20k on my overall from run to run in the same dungeon. Just roll for more True Bearing's x)

[Deleted]

you're underestimate your gloves very hard. To pull 720k dps in EoA means you have used all of your cds at the unimportant critter packs, otherwise is the amount of trash combined with the long trashless paths not enough, even if you neverending chain pull. Maybe skada shows you an dps of 720k dps, but the infight uptime must be really low (+-85%), which would put your dps to effective ~605k.

In my m+ journey i met some special players (bring the player not the class) which has outstading insane dps (kinda >1mio total dps over a whole big dungeon at +9 with necrotic/raging this week for example) from classes no one would await something like this.

The fact is outlaw rogue is not the strongest aoe class or spec. The player behind the screen is the biggest part of the performance of a class. An elite monk or lock will outdps an elite outlaw rogue or mage with ease. But those players and those performances are very rare like legendaries . An elite rogue will always be better than an average [put your class inside]. Most pugs thinking each mage or monk with 880+ gear is the god of dps, which is not the case in reality. Most of the 880 random players are performing at ~70% of the possible maximum (this makes m+ really interesting, sometimes you met players which are acting at +-95% of its maximum, which blows you away, because all of your prejudice is build on nonsense).

[hulkgor]

but here n there..i get even declined by +5 groups...well some ppl are just stupid

Or they simply got a better (higher ilvl) choice? Why be offensive?

[Tyrarolls]

Or they simply got a better (higher ilvl) choice? Why be offensive?

higher ilvl choice than my 894 outlaw..alright

[Geehbee]

I mean, people throw out numbers, would love to see some logs of 750k dps overall +10 runs that aren't cherry picked.

[Deleted]

you're underestimate your gloves very hard. To pull 720k dps in EoA means you have used all of your cds at the unimportant critter packs, otherwise is the amount of trash combined with the long trashless paths not enough, even if you neverending chain pull. Maybe skada shows you an dps of 720k dps, but the infight uptime must be really low (+-85%), which would put your dps to effective ~605k.

In my m+ journey i met some special players (bring the player not the class) which has outstading insane dps (kinda >1mio total dps over a whole big dungeon at +9 with necrotic/raging this week for example) from classes no one would await something like this.

The fact is outlaw rogue is not the strongest aoe class or spec. The player behind the screen is the biggest part of the performance of a class. An elite monk or lock will outdps an elite outlaw rogue or mage with ease. But those players and those performances are very rare like legendaries . An elite rogue will always be better than an average [put your class inside]. Most pugs thinking each mage or monk with 880+ gear is the god of dps, which is not the case in reality. Most of the 880 random players are performing at ~70% of the possible maximum (this makes m+ really interesting, sometimes you met players which are acting at +-95% of its maximum, which blows you away, because all of your prejudice is build on nonsense).

Sorry, that was a typo - 620k, not 720k - We didn't do too many massive pulls. Cooldowns were definitely not spent on unimportant critters, otherwise we would've died many times over. =x
I didn't die the entire dungeon, and I did the majority of the pulls because, well, I am an impatient ninjapuller, so I know my fight uptime was close to 100% - Also worth noting that you can get an extremely high overall in EoA if you pull right, so 720k is not too crazy even for EoA, without having to be useless for everything else. Pretty sure I did 780k in a +9 once because we pulled 3 packs of Gilbins, two hydras, a pack of blobs and two packs of crabs and pretty much got 50% of off that pull, haha.
Either way, I didn't do 720k that run, you are correct :P

"Lock" - Warlock? What? Elaborate! I am curious, never seen a Warlock perform even remotely close to acceptable

Just looking at the logs from wowlogs, Outlaw is a top-performing M+ spec. Also, there were several Outlaw Rogues in a bunch of the M15+ server firsts (world first DHT had 1 or 2, pretty sure?), so I am will remain rather unconvinced for now, but, eh, we can't all agree on everything!

That said, of course confirmation bias plays a gigantic role and I do only speak from personal experience + scanning logs and a few streams here and there, so it isn't like I have ironclad knowledge of the subject - I just know that I've played with some very good players with little to no life (like myself) whom I outperform quite significantly even without an optimum setup, leading me to believe Outlaw could be even stronger.

PS: About the gloves, if I am correct, they make Blade Flurry go from 35% at all times to 45.5% "on average" (If we assume it wasn't 70% 3 secs after activation but instead a normalized value of the full 10 seconds), assuming you toggle it on CD, so yea, the gloves are not BAD - Didn't mean that :3 Just that Insignia or Sephuz are better, and the people I run with have a combination of good aoe legendaries+Sephuz or even another aoe legendary. DH with bracers+boots, the one guy among my acquintances who wins over me ever so slightly!

[iky43210]

Poison bomb triggers me. I would've switch to sub or reroll classes if getting AK and legendaries weren't such a pain

[Deleted]

I havn't had anyone outdps me on the overall for weeks now, and I'm Outlaw, no ring (nor Sephuz), boots, no bracers, just the gloves for some burst AoE which isn't all that valuable once you get to higher +s. I'm fairly convinced Outlaw has one of the highest, if not the highest, potential for dmg in mythic+ - I reach 650k-750k every single run, depending on the instance, and this is without BiS legendaries. I'm 886 equipped.

We lack utility in form of AoE stuns or CRs, but we do bring a lot of disruption - We can completely shut mobs down from casting. Between Gouge, Blind, BtE, Kick and Vanishing for Cheap Shot, we can stop anything from casting. Good for shutting down mobs during raging on higher +s if you're focus firing (Like a Breaker in Lair).

It is also worth noting that pugging as Outlaw can be a bit of a tough nut to crack at times - As Outlaw your CDs won't always be up at the same time as it was last run, so you may need to vary how you pull, which requires coordination with tanks, though this is only really relevant when attempting to push keys.

I stand firm by my opinion that Outlaw is a "bottom of the top end of m+" specs, and is DEFINITELY a good addition to groups if your setup can accomodate. Does exceptionally well alongside AoE stuns.

Just prior to writing this post I did an EoA14 with DH tank, Dudu healer, Frost DK, WW monk and I - Did it in time with 5 mins to spare, despite multiple wipes.

The DH has the frost bracers and Sephuz - WW had boots and Sephuz - Both are same Ilvl as I am, and I won on the dps meter with 720k overall. Outlaw just can't die, even during pulls that become a clusterfuck of kiting, surviving and not dying to Sand Blasters
Mind you my group isn't made up of exceptional players, but we're above average to say the least, so it isn't just that "well the DK and the WW suck, apparently", cause we're all in 5/7M and 6/7M guilds and are among the best DPSers in said guilds.

TL;DR: Outlaw is a great m+ spec. Spread the word. Extremely sustained damage, does super well with the whole "never stop, keep pulling" attitude. Survives anything. The whole "Too much RNG" is nothing but a crutch for bad players - I am extremely consistent in my damage output over the course of a dungeon, barely moving 10-20k on my overall from run to run in the same dungeon. Just roll for more True Bearing's x)

Unfortunately m+ runs are not logged very often. I dont do logs by myself and did over 600 runs so far with pugs and got logged maybe 3 times in my very first m+. My +15 run in brh was around 34:14, what was speed rank 1 at this day what cannot be imho :-), there was denifinetly something faster.

And yes, i met warlocks they pulled over 1mio total dps no matter which dungeon and affixes at +9. The last one was yesterday: the tank just pulled more trash you would pull even without necro and it got just wrecked in secs (10mio aoe dps no prob).

[Deleted]

Unfortunately m+ runs are not logged very often. I dont do logs by myself and did over 600 runs so far with pugs and got logged maybe 3 times in my very first m+. My +15 run in brh was around 34:14, what was speed rank 1 at this day what cannot be imho :-), there was denifinetly something faster.

And yes, i met warlocks they pulled over 1mio total dps no matter which dungeon and affixes at +9. The last one was yesterday: the tank just pulled more trash you would pull even without necro and it got just wrecked in secs (10mio aoe dps no prob).

I find that extremely hard to believe, no offense - What would possibly be doing that? 20 Seed of Corruptions popping at the same time?

[Deleted]

Hi all. I'm currently in doubt between having a rogue or a druid alt. I love dpsing, and rogues in general, which makes me lean towards the rogue. Rogue dps specs are great in M+ too, the druid ones less so. I'd have to tank or heal as a druid. Groups would most likely be easier to find as a healer or tank, that's true. But how well is it to find groups as a rogue? Will I be much worse off than a tank or a healer? I'd mostly be interested in mid-level M+ runs, around the 5-8 range.

You should make your own group as a dps anyway, and work on your key. At least that is what Im doing on my warrior, as it saves me lots of time. Less than 3 mins and you are good to go.
If you enjoy rogues the most that is what you should be playing- no doubt about that.

[GT4]

I find that extremely hard to believe, no offense - What would possibly be doing that? 20 Seed of Corruptions popping at the same time?

The only thing that could come close is Seed of Corruption + Soul Flame (enemies explode on death) but even then that's only possible for absolutely massive pulls (e.g. imps in VotW) and most of it is just padding because other DPS would kill (cleave) them in a few seconds anyway.

Total DPS in general isn't exactly the best indicator in such cases because it doesn't directly relate to your contribution to the run's speed.

[Deleted]

The only thing that could come close is Seed of Corruption + Soul Flame (enemies explode on death) but even then that's only possible for absolutely massive pulls (e.g. imps in VotW) and most of it is just padding because other DPS would kill (cleave) them in a few seconds anyway.

Total DPS in general isn't exactly the best indicator in such cases because it doesn't directly relate to your contribution to the run's speed.

Ah, that is an excellent point, actually.

I usually run with a frost DK and we always chastise him when he pops the dragon on imp in VotW or crabs/gilbins in EoA, because it would've died to cleave anyway and it would be much more important to have it for some of the tougher pulls instead, even if it his dps overall looks lower.

[Mibzo]

Poison bomb is awesome burst AOE, which you can sorta predict by timing envenoms.

How can you predict it? I feel utterly useless when it comes to trash, depends if posion bomb procs.

[Xeion]

How can you predict it? I feel utterly useless when it comes to trash, depends if posion bomb procs.

What talents are you running?

I tend to do quite fin as sin. I won't be outdpsing monks, hunters and the like, but I still do respectable 500-600k dps on AoE without poison bomb.

[Deleted]

Total DPS in general isn't exactly the best indicator in such cases because it doesn't directly relate to your contribution to the run's speed

Sure, DPS is not the only thing which is important for a speedrun, but it is the most important. If everything is perfect (correct paths, pulls etc.) Total dps (the effective dps per infight sec over the whole dungeon) is responsible for the world fastest speedrun in a dungeon. The potential of some classes is only shown at insane pulls - the damage done by locks grows more than any other class the more adds you have - this makes locks to one of the best classes for really elitist speedruns. The dps of the lock at such pulls is really necessary, because the tank is not able to survive very long at these pulls, especially at current affixes.

[scrangos]

Things might get better for rogues with the group stealth coming in 7.1.5

[Deleted]

Sure, DPS is not the only thing which is important for a speedrun, but it is the most important. If everything is perfect (correct paths, pulls etc.) Total dps (the effective dps per infight sec over the whole dungeon) is responsible for the world fastest speedrun in a dungeon. The potential of some classes is only shown at insane pulls - the damage done by locks grows more than any other class the more adds you have - this makes locks to one of the best classes for really elitist speedruns. The dps of the lock at such pulls is really necessary, because the tank is not able to survive very long at these pulls, especially at current affixes.

I still don't understand exactly where this mythical Lock damage is coming from. Affliction? demo? destru?

Outlaw Rogues AoE also grows by the target since Blade Flurry don't give no fucks =x

Does all AoE grow by the target, actually? Completely off-topic but I don't know if things has changed on that front...

[iky43210]

What talents are you running?

I tend to do quite fin as sin. I won't be outdpsing monks, hunters and the like, but I still do respectable 500-600k dps on AoE without poison bomb.

That feel when you do 500-600k aoe and your pal dk/hunter are pulling in million because poison bomb won't proc

[Valnar]

I still don't understand exactly where this mythical Lock damage is coming from. Affliction? demo? destru?

Outlaw Rogues AoE also grows by the target since Blade Flurry don't give no fucks =x

Does all AoE grow by the target, actually? Completely off-topic but I don't know if things has changed on that front...

I don't know about locks, but most classes aoe increases pretty linearly.

Like Outlaw does 100% damage + 35% for each added mob + greed damage (I dont think each greed hit blade flurrys).

Fire Mage however scales I think more exponentially with living bomb, since it reapplies living bomb on each mob hit by the first, so like fire mages get a lot better with more mobs.