Mythic Odyn Difficulty

[Deleted]

Honestly, Mythic Odyn is one of the worst bosses i ever played.

On my realm, currently 4 Guilds killed him out of 49 guilds that are 7/7m EN. I looked at the logs of the top ~15 guilds and literally all of them wipe about 1-2 minutes into the second phase, the logs look all the same for every guild.

The duration of the fight is insane because you barely get to DPS the boss. The small adds need to be killed, then Hyrja/heimdall spawn, then you get a few tiny seconds on the boss and you are back on the adds. The second phase is >almost< as long as some EN encounters.

Healers can't keep up that long with their mana, especially considering how fucking long this fight lasts combined with nonstop never ending AoE damage. Spears shatter, Shield of Light, unerring blast, horn of valor all these occur with basically zero downtime after each other.

Global, 243 Guilds have killed Mythic Odyn since ToV mythic release almost 2 weeks ago. If you compare this to nearly any other Raid-tier, this is an extremely low number.

As it stands right now, Odyn, Guarm and Helya mythic are more difficult than the Nighthold mythic bosses we tested on the PTR.

EN was one of the biggest failures in WoW raiding history. If it convinced weak players that they were eligible for Mythic raiding, it was even worse than previously thought.

Mediocre guilds will not be killing Helya in in its current state, unless they bruteforce 600 pulls on it.

[Zyky]

uhm is there any specc that doesnt have the ToV stat sticks as bis trinket? (maybe not if it rolls with their worst secondary stat)

Only problem with Odyn is the length imo, p1 is just a waste.

Enh Shamans is just 1 of the classes that don't use the stat stick, just about any caster can get better trinkets than a stat stick too. But if you read the whole post, no one is going to go into ToV for stat stick trinkets when there are far better trinkets in Nighthold. FAR BETTER.

[Deleted]

EN was one of the biggest failures in WoW raiding history. If it convinced weak players that they were eligible for Mythic raiding, it was even worse than previously thought.

Mediocre guilds will not be killing Helya in in its current state, unless they bruteforce 600 pulls on it.

What's wrong with killing the last boss in a raid after 600 pulls ? It took us ~ 450 pulls to kill ragnaros (last tier I played "seriously"), and it didn't feel like needing so many pulls meant we were not eligible for mythic (heroic then) raiding.

[Eapoe]

uhm is there any specc that doesnt have the ToV stat sticks as bis trinket? (maybe not if it rolls with their worst secondary stat)

Only problem with Odyn is the length imo, p1 is just a waste.

Part of the problem comes from better or equal gear coming from easier content. Mythic ToV has the highest guaranteed ilvl drops; however, with farming and some luck, mythic/m+ dungeons will get you equal or better gear than even H ToV will reward. I know it's not the same for everyone, but just an example, an Etheral Urn from Nightbane that warforges is equal to heroic trinkets from ToV, titanforged is actually higher. The relics from Nightbane are usually a BiS, as well as the chest. This is just an example of 1 boss. M+ farming can give the same ilvl/higher ilvl rewards, it just comes down to if you want to farm or not. This is one of the main issues with m/m+ right now as well as why most people are saying ToV is overtuned. The time to reward ratio is not there for a lot of people to feel like the head to wall banging is worth it right now.

[Deleted]

Except it won't be, they made the gear in ToV absolute trash and none of it is tier or tier related. The trinkets aren't great, nothing in ToV is amazing. I don't see guilds wasting time progressing in ToV once NH comes out for 1 or 2 classes that the gear is actually BiS for. Doesn't change the fact that ToV is grossly overtuned, even the highest of high end guilds are saying it. I did Mythic Nighthold beta testing and it wasn't nearly as dreadful as ToV...

basically spot on

the only reason we are actually trying to kill the bosses in ToV is because we are competing for our wowprogress ranking. Without it, we most likely would be skipping ToV

[Allenseiei]

I see nothing wrong with the Odyn fight.
I'm sure it wasn't balanced around being a first boss, because it isn't. The fight length is not really a problem at all, it might get a bit tedius, but there have been longer and more boring fights. Odyn is not a boss you need "tight" dps on, so people raising rediculous stuff about "needing BiS legendaries" to get through it only perhaps shows their lack of actual knowledge of their class. Odyn is 100% self responsibility fight, if u lapse you can easily die, which I have no problems with.

Was emerald nightmare too easy and gave people false hopes now that they actually reach something difficult? I don't think that's the right question, I believe its "Was there too much access to high ilevel gear before the raid?" Which I think its a yes. Mythic + is what trvialized EN, apart from Xavius fight which was wrong mechanically for an end boss.

[Deleted]

Only thing wrong with Odyn is invisible stun balls.

[Zyky]

This is it really. ToV is imo a very fun and challenging raid but sadly many (most?) raiders are loot driven and it will not be easy to keep people focused on ToV when the loot there is nothing special. I think for most guilds, Mythic ToV will be something they will do after they are done with Nighthold progression for the additional content. ToV needed something special lootwise. Sadly all the interesting items in 7.1 ended up in Kara.

Its not about loot driven, I was just using that point to what the person I quoted said. Its just when it comes to progression, people do the newest content, not the older content. ToV is a very boring raid when you think about it. You have the first boss which is literally 3 bosses from the Dungeon put together with some mechanics removed and very few new ones put it. Second boss is patchwerk dps race with little mechanics if you're not a healer. Helya is the only fight with lots of new stuff put in with the old stuff, so much new stuff that it makes the fight very overwhelming.

The main reason I mentioned loot is because the required DPS and HPS numbers to actually ridiculous for the item level returned from actually killing the bosses. The Nighthold testing for mythic bosses were far more lax and shorter fights. Shorter fights mean that its easier on healers and their mana, dps required to kill bosses ie to push phases at proper times and to make sure that adds are dying while still having time on the boss is just perfect in Nighthold.

You look at like Odyn for example, this is by far the most unfriendly melee fight they ever made. The Rune adds, which are fine imo, but there's way too much required moving for this boss. You have stun balls coming from everywhere and their hitboxes are larger than their actual animation, same stun balls can be under Odyn's foot, you can't see them and then it comes right for you and basically its "oh well GG". You have the inability to pull the spawned add in P2 ontop of the boss, so you have to run a pretty large distance just to get to the spawned add, which makes uptimes become a very large problem. Then the constant moving in the last phase coupled with the boss constantly turning to spear a tank and parrying your hits while throwing the spear.

I mean Odyn might not be a real dps check or anything, but its still very overtuned and you can tell that they threw the entire raid together without putting any real effort into it or effort into thinking about mechanics because there's WAY TOO MUCH going on during Odyn and Helya. Speaking of Helya, worst encounter they've ever made...drops 895 gear, but the fight is just toxic. I don't even see 100 guilds killing Helya legitimately before Nighthold releases.

[Alvito]

It's a pretty large step up from Mythic EN, we're also 7/7mythic EN and progressing on Odyn Mythic. I like the fight alot (as a hunter), I think the issue is that the difficulty very suddenly got stepped up, rather than gradually which is kind of frustrating I suppose.

Hell heroic ToV is a step up from mythic EN.

[Raiju]

Mediocre guilds will not be killing Helya in in its current state, unless they bruteforce 600 pulls on it.

Many difficult endbosses have required nearly as much anyway. Was it Limit that said they had 500 pulls before they gave up and used the exploit?

[Baconeggcheese]

Blizzard considers ToV as an extension of EN, if you think about linear difficulty scaling forgiving that xavius was extremely under tuned this raid makes a lot of sense.

[Deavane]

Helya's Cutting Edge achievement refers to Tomb of Sargeras.
Xavius' ... refers to Nighthold.

You can infer from that ToV/Helya is supposed to be relevant content until 7.2

It won't be relevant outside of a few pieces of gear though. Guilds will forget about Helya and come back to her if Nighthold is out. Relevant rankings for her will last until Nighthold. Kills following Nighthold's release won't mean much.

[tratra]

Honestly, Mythic Odyn is one of the worst bosses i ever played.

On my realm, currently 4 Guilds killed him out of 49 guilds that are 7/7m EN. I looked at the logs of the top ~15 guilds and literally all of them wipe about 1-2 minutes into the second phase, the logs look all the same for every guild.

The duration of the fight is insane because you barely get to DPS the boss. The small adds need to be killed, then Hyrja/heimdall spawn, then you get a few tiny seconds on the boss and you are back on the adds. The second phase is >almost< as long as some EN encounters.

Healers can't keep up that long with their mana, especially considering how fucking long this fight lasts combined with nonstop never ending AoE damage. Spears shatter, Shield of Light, unerring blast, horn of valor all these occur with basically zero downtime after each other.

Global, 243 Guilds have killed Mythic Odyn since ToV mythic release almost 2 weeks ago. If you compare this to nearly any other Raid-tier, this is an extremely low number.

As it stands right now, Odyn, Guarm and Helya mythic are more difficult than the Nighthold mythic bosses we tested on the PTR.

Ill be very honest with you and I need to be.

Atm raiding is an issue, and blizzard is trying to see how it plays out in general. A lot of people have quit the game and some new people are coming along or old players. Thing is they are not sticking around.

7/7M EN says nothing about a guild in reality. It only means that that guild has enough people online to raid on time. Thats it really.

As preach called on his youtube channel and I totally agree with him is that most guilds in the world nowadays are casual. He went out and called his own guild casual which is clearing content within top 300 or something like that.
Thats the reality though, you dont get a lot of guilds that have a lot of quality players anymore etc.

And thats of course why you see on the top raiding race e.g Method and Serenity have some abysmal talent difference against other guilds in the top 5-10.

So what happened really? Blizzard introduced EN. Which was 4 out of 10 in difficulty.
EN Normal was easy enough, HC was easy as well and Mythic was only hard at the 1st and the 2nd week. After that people start overgearing and stepping through mythic or at least killing bosses that in reality without them being overgeared it wouldn't be possible.

Tov on the other hand was released with a gear cap that disallows you to overgear it currently. Thats why you see guilds like yours getting stuck on M odyn. Its just that your guild cannot handle actual progress without being overgeared.

Now don't go offensive and think oh I called you bad or whatever. Thats how the game works.

On the other hand I personally believe that TOV is a failure from blizzards side. They shouldn't release content that is that hard because they are eventually killing their own game. Tov normal is alright for pugs. Heroic is almost not doable in pugs. Also the current mythic raiding scene that is bellow top 100 sees that it can't progress through TOV and that of course its gonna make people stop playing or changing guilds looking for something else, and then those guilds won't be able to find replacements etc.

So yes I don't think mythic odyn is particullarly hard, its just that guilds self-entitled the 7/7 EN mythic meaning that they are TOP or they are a very good guild which in reality is totally not true. Damn I joined a 400 guild at the start of legion and they thought they were the shit while in reality only 5 people from them could play they game the rest was literally pulling bosses until the bosses died, and obviously looking at their progress they are stuck atm with TOV mythic.

- - - Updated - - -

What's wrong with killing the last boss in a raid after 600 pulls ? It took us ~ 450 pulls to kill ragnaros (last tier I played "seriously"), and it didn't feel like needing so many pulls meant we were not eligible for mythic (heroic then) raiding.

lets just say your not entitled to kill a boss because you make many pulls. If you can't kill it with 600 pulls then consider changing your guilds structure or actually admit defeat and that its harder than you thought it was.

M Helya was defeated 1st week of her being available on M content by 2 guilds. That shows you its pretty much doable. Is it doable by mediocore guilds? Not rly. Is it doable from current "Top" guilds? hmm define that... I was watching Danish Terrace for example on their stream towards Gurahm took them like 12 hours. They had some serious issues with dispeling though. Well thats a top 10 guild atm that you could clearly see that they had at least 3 people that weren't feat for raiding in that kind of content. Thing is 3 people can make a massive difference on encounters that require everyone to perform at max.

[Zyky]

Tov on the other hand was released with a gear cap that disallows you to overgear it currently. Thats why you see guilds like yours getting stuck on M odyn. Its just that your guild cannot handle actual progress without being overgeared.

On the other hand I personally believe that TOV is a failure from blizzards side. They shouldn't release content that is that hard because they are eventually killing their own game. Tov normal is alright for pugs. Heroic is almost not doable in pugs. Also the current mythic raiding scene that is bellow top 100 sees that it can't progress through TOV and that of course its gonna make people stop playing or changing guilds looking for something else, and then those guilds won't be able to find replacements etc.

So yes I don't think mythic odyn is particullarly hard, its just that guilds self-entitled the 7/7 EN mythic meaning that they are TOP or they are a very good guild which in reality is totally not true. Damn I joined a 400 guild at the start of legion and they thought they were the shit while in reality only 5 people from them could play they game the rest was literally pulling bosses until the bosses died, and obviously looking at their progress they are stuck atm with TOV mythic.

Odyn sure, but when those top 10 guilds are saying that Helya is the worst designed fight Blizzard has ever done...There's a problem. ToV as a whole is a problem. There is a massive design flaw and I really have no idea where Blizzard is going with this, but they made the game way too casual friendly and just out of the blue they release this retardedly overtuned raid for the majority of the playerbase. Statistically 3%-10% of raiding guilds kill end bosses, at the rate of which Helya is going we're lucky if its .5% of guilds. I guarantee it though if Blizzard overtuned Nighthold they're going to drop down in subs again because people are going to quit because they're making shit way too hard for even the more casual, but still decent players.

[DakonBlackblade]

ToV is just wierd, its overtuned as fuck because its suposed to be Nighthold content, but when Nighthold actualy opens ppl are gona kill Scorpiroc and some other of the early bosses easier than they could Odyn and will get much better gear, even from heroic Nighthold they get better gear, and then there will be no point in doing ToV anymore other than for the Helya achievement. I mean the place drops Ilevel 890 gear and needs ilevel 890 gear to beat, theres no other way to describe it as overtuned since the only way to get that ilevel is by killing the boss in the raid itself that also rrequire you to have such a high ilevel. That or do infinite amounts of split runs to get lucky with titanforgeds.

Ill be very honest with you and I need to be.

Atm raiding is an issue, and blizzard is trying to see how it plays out in general. A lot of people have quit the game and some new people are coming along or old players. Thing is they are not sticking around.

1 7/7M EN says nothing about a guild in reality. It only means that that guild has enough people online to raid on time. Thats it really.

2 As preach called on his youtube channel and I totally agree with him is that most guilds in the world nowadays are casual. He went out and called his own guild casual which is clearing content within top 300 or something like that.
Thats the reality though, you dont get a lot of guilds that have a lot of quality players anymore etc.

And thats of course why you see on the top raiding race e.g Method and Serenity have some abysmal talent difference against other guilds in the top 5-10.

3So what happened really? Blizzard introduced EN. Which was 4 out of 10 in difficulty.
EN Normal was easy enough, HC was easy as well and Mythic was only hard at the 1st and the 2nd week. After that people start overgearing and stepping through mythic or at least killing bosses that in reality without them being overgeared it wouldn't be possible.

4Tov on the other hand was released with a gear cap that disallows you to overgear it currently. Thats why you see guilds like yours getting stuck on M odyn. Its just that your guild cannot handle actual progress without being overgeared.

Now don't go offensive and think oh I called you bad or whatever. Thats how the game works.

On the other hand I personally believe that TOV is a failure from blizzards side. They shouldn't release content that is that hard because they are eventually killing their own game. Tov normal is alright for pugs. Heroic is almost not doable in pugs. Also the current mythic raiding scene that is bellow top 100 sees that it can't progress through TOV and that of course its gonna make people stop playing or changing guilds looking for something else, and then those guilds won't be able to find replacements etc.

5So yes I don't think mythic odyn is particullarly hard, its just that guilds self-entitled the 7/7 EN mythic meaning that they are TOP or they are a very good guild which in reality is totally not true. Damn I joined a 400 guild at the start of legion and they thought they were the shit while in reality only 5 people from them could play they game the rest was literally pulling bosses until the bosses died, and obviously looking at their progress they are stuck atm with TOV mythic.

6lets just say your not entitled to kill a boss because you make many pulls. If you can't kill it with 600 pulls then consider changing your guilds structure or actually admit defeat and that its harder than you thought it was.

M Helya was defeated 1st week of her being available on M content by 2 guilds. That shows you its pretty much doable. Is it doable by mediocore guilds? Not rly. Is it doable from current "Top" guilds? hmm define that... I was watching Danish Terrace for example on their stream towards Gurahm took them like 12 hours. They had some serious issues with dispeling though. Well thats a top 10 guild atm that you could clearly see that they had at least 3 people that weren't feat for raiding in that kind of content. Thing is 3 people can make a massive difference on encounters that require everyone to perform at max.

1 - This is false, EN is not the easiest raid ever as ppl clain, it is basicaly as hard as Dragon Soul was, has some easy bosses, is small, has a couple of hard bosse sand an undertuned last boss (wich si the only problem with the raid otherwise itd be awell designed firs raid). Only about 5% of the raiding comunity si 7/7, it is hard enought, the game is not balanced to the best players in the planet, never will be, so drop this notion that because Exorsseus cleared the place in 10 hours it is easy, Exorsseus, Method and such are not the standard, never were, never will be.

2 - I partialy agree here, most guilds that raid mythic are semi-hardcore, they put in much more effort than the average joe guild but are far from the real hardcore guilds that do endless split runs, farm Ap like theres no tomorrow and play non stop during progression. This is not a problem tough, this is the crowd Blizz aim theire tunning of myhtic at, without this crowd you can kiss mythic difficulty bie bie as only a handfull of players would be left. Things were much better when 10 man mythic was a thing tough, 20 mans forced ppl into guilds they didn't want to be in with players that are there just to fill the rosters.

3 - Again EN is not the easiest raid ever and you can't overgear current content. This is an RPG part of the progression is conected to upgrading your character, wether trough Ap, gear or level. Current content is tuned to a base ilevel and whatever gear you get on the raid itself makes your life easier but you can't overgear a raid with gear from the raid itself, getting that gear and upgrading your character is factored in the design. Do the fights get easier as you get stronger ? Of course they do, but again thats per design and the kills have just as much merit as they did 2 months ago. When ppl start comming back with Nighthold gear then well talk about overgearing, right now were seeing ppl at the top fo theire power progression allowed by the current content making it as easy as its gona get before its not current anymore.

4 - ToV is overtuned, to be cleared in any difficulty it requires an item level as high as the raid itself drops, thats nonsensical as you can only get that high ilevel by killing the bosses in the raid in the first place. Even real hard bosses in the past have seen more kills than Odyn/Guarm and Helya. Guarm in particular is a problem as he is a boss that requires insane gear and you have nowhere to go for that gear since the best source of items for this fight is Helya wich is even harder than Guarm and only comes after him. The solution top guilds found was to farm AP like mad and get the 5% buff, its bad design to factor in power upgrades such as the 5% on the tuning of fights cause all that do is serve as a hidrance to those without the 5% while providing no real advatage to those who have it. Anyone who started playing 1 month into this expansion is screwed for not having enought AP for the upgrade for instance.

5 - Mythic Odyn is objectively hard as fuck, and it is the wrong kind of hard just like Guarm. You can get you guild go in there execute every mehcanic to perfection and still die because your tank didn't have enought HP to survive the spear, your healers just couldn't keep up with the insane healling requirement that is made even higher because you DPS just never seen to be able to damage Odyn as they don't have the DPS to just melt Hyrja or Heimdal when they spawn. Guarm is even worse, they designed an easy boss than upgraded his HP to infinity, doubled his damage and gave him a 4 minutes enrage timer. They could put Hogger in there under those conditions and it'd be an insanely difficult fight.

6 - Nobody is entitled to kill anything, but progresison implies pratice, wich in turns means you keep trying and improving. When bosses are realy hard you die a lot and need a lot of pratice. Method probably wiped over 200, maybe over 300 times in those 2 days. I rember my mythic (heroic back them I think) Lei Shen kill, it took my guild 230 tries, Paragon took around 250 tries to kill the boss, so basicaly the same, the only difference was, Paragon wiped those 250 times in about 3 days, my guild took over 15 days of raids to get to that same amount of wipe. One thing ppl almost always forget to factor in is that the top guilds raid so much during progressiong they pull the bosses more than the average middle of the pack mythic guild do on the durationg of the entire tier sometimes.

[adamzz]

lets just say your not entitled to kill a boss because you make many pulls. If you can't kill it with 600 pulls then consider changing your guilds structure or actually admit defeat and that its harder than you thought it was.

M Helya was defeated 1st week of her being available on M content by 2 guilds. That shows you its pretty much doable. Is it doable by mediocore guilds? Not rly. Is it doable from current "Top" guilds? hmm define that... I was watching Danish Terrace for example on their stream towards Gurahm took them like 12 hours. They had some serious issues with dispeling though. Well thats a top 10 guild atm that you could clearly see that they had at least 3 people that weren't feat for raiding in that kind of content. Thing is 3 people can make a massive difference on encounters that require everyone to perform at max.

It took Paragon well over 500 pulls to get world first Ragnaros Heroic, and you are claiming that they were not entitled to kill that boss? It took Method 225 pulls to take down Helya. That's also many pulls and you are saying that they are not entitled to kill Helya.

Yes, some weaker guilds might need 600 pulls to kill Helya, but that doesn't change the fact that they can. Needing many pulls to kill a boss doesn't make the kill illegitimate..

Someone that dinged 110 just a few weeks ago really has no say in what makes a kill legit.

[Avalrand]

I will just hope that EN and ToV edge cases will help Blizzard to balance NH right.

[tratra]

It took Paragon well over 500 pulls to get world first Ragnaros Heroic, and you are claiming that they were not entitled to kill that boss? It took Method 225 pulls to take down Helya. That's also many pulls and you are saying that they are not entitled to kill Helya.

Yes, some weaker guilds might need 600 pulls to kill Helya, but that doesn't change the fact that they can. Needing many pulls to kill a boss doesn't make the kill illegitimate..

Someone that dinged 110 just a few weeks ago really has no say in what makes a kill legit.

i was just replying to the guy that was saying he should be able to kill the boss on 600 pulls... open your eyes and read.

[adamzz]

i was just replying to the guy that was saying he should be able to kill the boss on 600 pulls... open your eyes and read.

Yea.. This is what he said:

What's wrong with killing the last boss in a raid after 600 pulls ? It took us ~ 450 pulls to kill ragnaros (last tier I played "seriously"), and it didn't feel like needing so many pulls meant we were not eligible for mythic (heroic then) raiding.

You replied saying that needing 600 kills means that he wasn't entitled to kill the boss and that if you need 600 pulls you should change the guild structure or just admit defeat. Which is a dumb statement.

[Mykk]

Honestly, Mythic Odyn is one of the worst bosses i ever played.

On my realm, currently 4 Guilds killed him out of 49 guilds that are 7/7m EN. I looked at the logs of the top ~15 guilds and literally all of them wipe about 1-2 minutes into the second phase, the logs look all the same for every guild.

The duration of the fight is insane because you barely get to DPS the boss. The small adds need to be killed, then Hyrja/heimdall spawn, then you get a few tiny seconds on the boss and you are back on the adds. The second phase is >almost< as long as some EN encounters.

Healers can't keep up that long with their mana, especially considering how fucking long this fight lasts combined with nonstop never ending AoE damage. Spears shatter, Shield of Light, unerring blast, horn of valor all these occur with basically zero downtime after each other.

Global, 243 Guilds have killed Mythic Odyn since ToV mythic release almost 2 weeks ago. If you compare this to nearly any other Raid-tier, this is an extremely low number.

As it stands right now, Odyn, Guarm and Helya mythic are more difficult than the Nighthold mythic bosses we tested on the PTR.

L2P issue.

Trial of Valor is so far best raid in legion that we had chance of expierencing. Only decent boss in EN was Cenarius and rest of them were blah especialy Xavius.

On our second kill i had 150k mana when odyn gave up as resto druid and 380k HPS. So yeah again l2p issue from healers. And im MS balance.