[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[trm90]

@Rorschachs for real though we are actually extremely strong healers at the moment

We have varied talents, mana efficient throughput with a ton of instant casts, a couple of legendaries which will clearly increase your HPS, and we have a lot of utility spells especially compared to every other healer except Resto Shamans. We can pull 350k+ DPS on shorter dungeon boss fights while weaving in 1M+ flash heals. On top of a free 15% extra health and 30% armor from our artifact as well as bubble, we are sturdy healers (unlike HPriests who will die to literally fucking anything).

Itemising as an HPal is dead easy and crit has such a huge impact on our gameplay. Meanwhile, HPriests stack Mastery for a powerful HoT that overheals, MWs use Vers (lol) and need a second item set altogether to keep up in m+, Druids also need a second item set.

With the buffs to BoV and legendaries next patch I'm actually wondering if we'll get nerfed a little bit. I'm mega happy with the Legion changes and our class is really fun, but we are the last healer class who needs any buffs right now. Holy Priests and Mistweavers are jack-of-all-trade specs without any obvious reason to bring them to a raid over Shamans, Disc, Paladins, or Druids, and I really think they could use a push.

[Floopa]

We are now the 4th best healer in EN mythic according to warcraftlogs and Blizzard's response to that is buffing Holy Priests.

paladins are the strongest healer right now.

but keep memeing like the cucked aladya lmao

[Nedralixx]

paladins are the strongest healer right now.

but keep memeing like the cucked aladya lmao

Yes!! Listen to this man. He knows exactly what he's saying!

[AtomicT]

We are now the 4th best healer in EN mythic according to warcraftlogs and Blizzard's response to that is buffing Holy Priests.

must be why every mythic worldfirst in en/tov had 2 hpalas in it ayy

[Smag]

Never understood the whole "we are doomed!" panic that some high end raiders were spreading before Legion. Did we play the same beta?

Yes, our mastery is cluncky AF, so as our Artifact ability (it's OP in 5 man though). But the core mechanic was still there and I've yet to see a boss fight where two tanks are not getting damaged in some shape or form, e.g. making our two beacons doing most of hard lifting regarding tank healing in the raid. Our MA is better than before, not great, but good. Even our 5 man kit is much better with BoV. And they are buffing that shit, can you belive it?

[spikeh]

I think the doom-mongering was mostly Aladya. As long as beacon exists our mandatory raid spot remains safe.

[Deleted]

I just never liked how they did the design phase of the paladin. Placing us in melee and then giving us light of dawn in a cone ability. Pretty much forcing you to turn around 180 degrees to hit the ranged. Restrictions on mastery. Restrictions on LoD. DPS restricted to melee. Restrictions on the aura. No movement ability at first! The circle of forgiveness for LoD certainly took a while to be implemented. Just to name a few things off the top of my head. They can buff/nerf our spells and mastery to balance us better. I was never afraid of being the weakest hps wise. But core mechanics like being melee + cone LoD are not things that get changed during the first heroic week. And for me that was the biggest concern. It was never about the hps numbers. We did fine number wise when raid testing rolled around.

[Taeldorian]

I think the doom-mongering was mostly Aladya. As long as beacon exists our mandatory raid spot remains safe.

It was. He ran around saying Hpaladins were dumpster tier but every world first guild brought one even though the great aladya said it would even be better to bring an extra Rsham over an hpal. Obviously wasn't the case, but meh.

It was quite obvious we weren't and aren't dumpster tier, we're one of the better healers which has already been proven with logs and world first raiding rosters.

[trm90]

I just never liked how they did the design phase of the paladin. Placing us in melee and then giving us light of dawn in a cone ability. Pretty much forcing you to turn around 180 degrees to hit the ranged. Restrictions on mastery. Restrictions on LoD. DPS restricted to melee. Restrictions on the aura. No movement ability at first! The circle of forgiveness for LoD certainly took a while to be implemented. Just to name a few things off the top of my head. They can buff/nerf our spells and mastery to balance us better. I was never afraid of being the weakest hps wise. But core mechanics like being melee + cone LoD are not things that get changed during the first heroic week. And for me that was the biggest concern. It was never about the hps numbers. We did fine number wise when raid testing rolled around.

It was difficult to get used to, but you can very easily solve both of those problems by speccing into BotLightbringer, which is a totally viable talent in almost every single raid encounter.

If we do get nerfed next patch I hope it's just a small numbers decrease to certain talents or legendaries. Mechanically I'm pretty happy, mostly because I feel like I've chosen a healer with a really clear niche. There is a specific reason to bring us to a raid in spot/tank healing and bubbles, just like Resto Shamans bring a fuckton of AoE throughput and AoE CDs. We have a specific playstyle of juggling mini-cooldowns and positioning ourselves properly. I don't really get the same vibe when playing something like an HPriest or MW though. Even though they bring huge throughput, there's a reason why many HPriests are gradually thinking of swapping to Disc and MWs are the least popular class.

[Deleted]

Would it ever be worth taking BoF over BoV in M+? Can see the usefulness of having 2 perma beacons on the tank and 1 melee DPS. BoVs healing sounds really nice but can't help but feel it would be extremely situational?

Dinged 110 on my Pala yesterday, been doing 10+ as Rdruid but fancied a change of playstyle

[Lestrang]

Arcway +10 M guys how do u deal with this shit, wiped at every trash wave, Jesus at some point there was a mob who basically 1 hit the DK tank with 4 mill HP, i felt so powerless
@Ashtwo, You can run BoF, it works, sometimes can be actually nice, but the thing is, BoV basically ensure that your whole party is topped by just channeling heal into 1 person, and the if this person is beacon'd you would be spending less mana too, sure, BoV costs alot, but its not a raid boss, you can drink all the time, i can drink when they pull the boss. Never really went oom, so honestly, it feels far more superior, but in the end of the day, play what you feel comfortable with and works.

[trm90]

Would it ever be worth taking BoF over BoV in M+? Can see the usefulness of having 2 perma beacons on the tank and 1 melee DPS. BoVs healing sounds really nice but can't help but feel it would be extremely situational?

Dinged 110 on my Pala yesterday, been doing 10+ as Rdruid but fancied a change of playstyle

BoV is almost always better, M+ is about spammy burst heals and BoV lends itself well to that. BoF/L are good for raids and will massively improve your mana efficiency and raid heal capabilities, two things which aren't very useful in M+.


@Lestrang which affixes? Sometimes you have to depend on smart tanks or well-timed CC from DPS to get anything done. Arcway is aids if your team is mostly melee as well.

[Deleted]

It was difficult to get used to, but you can very easily solve both of those problems by speccing into BotLightbringer, which is a totally viable talent in almost every single raid encounter.

If we do get nerfed next patch I hope it's just a small numbers decrease to certain talents or legendaries. Mechanically I'm pretty happy, mostly because I feel like I've chosen a healer with a really clear niche. There is a specific reason to bring us to a raid in spot/tank healing and bubbles, just like Resto Shamans bring a fuckton of AoE throughput and AoE CDs. We have a specific playstyle of juggling mini-cooldowns and positioning ourselves properly. I don't really get the same vibe when playing something like an HPriest or MW though. Even though they bring huge throughput, there's a reason why many HPriests are gradually thinking of swapping to Disc and MWs are the least popular class.

How does BotL solve the following issue:


The ranged are over 20 yards away and take an aoe hit. How do you cast LoD on them while facing the boss. You are forced to turn around 180 cast it and turn back to face the boss.

Remember that during alpha both crusaders might and BotL buffed our mastery past 50% with just the talents. We also had the beacon talent that pretty much worked like attonement healing to our beacon target. Our talents where vastly different from what we have now. And why do you think it's different? Because people play-tested it and complained/commented and provided criticism on their design choices. The original design wasn't made by adding abilities into the game and playing it. It's made on paper at a table by the class designers. Please don't forget how huge the circle of forgiveness is for LoD. It makes such a huge difference that i don't think a lot of players realize. This isn't about numbers. It never was about numbers for me and many others. Sure there where doomsayers just calling for the end of the paladin. But a lot of people provided very valid criticism that pretty much formed the paladin to what it is now.

[MCC]

Please don't forget how huge the circle of forgiveness is for LoD. It makes such a huge difference that i don't think a lot of players realize.

It is not "huge" by any stretch of imagination. 3-4 yards is all you get. Now, if it was 8-10 yards... that would have qualified as "huge". What we do have on live... isn't.

[Deleted]

It is not "huge" by any stretch of imagination. 3-4 yards is all you get. Now, if it was 8-10 yards... that would have qualified as "huge". What we do have on live... isn't.

I wasn't saying huge as in literally but it's a huge change for LoD. Because the cone was nasty on the ptr. Super forgiving what we have now.

[Hawg]

Would it ever be worth taking BoF over BoV in M+? Can see the usefulness of having 2 perma beacons on the tank and 1 melee DPS. BoVs healing sounds really nice but can't help but feel it would be extremely situational?

Dinged 110 on my Pala yesterday, been doing 10+ as Rdruid but fancied a change of playstyle

I don't think it would, but if it was, I would probably put one on the tank and the other Beacon on yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

How does BotL solve the following issue:


The ranged are over 20 yards away and take an aoe hit. How do you cast LoD on them while facing the boss. You are forced to turn around 180 cast it and turn back to face the boss.

Remember that during alpha both crusaders might and BotL buffed our mastery past 50% with just the talents. We also had the beacon talent that pretty much worked like attonement healing to our beacon target. Our talents where vastly different from what we have now. And why do you think it's different? Because people play-tested it and complained/commented and provided criticism on their design choices. The original design wasn't made by adding abilities into the game and playing it. It's made on paper at a table by the class designers. Please don't forget how huge the circle of forgiveness is for LoD. It makes such a huge difference that i don't think a lot of players realize. This isn't about numbers. It never was about numbers for me and many others. Sure there where doomsayers just calling for the end of the paladin. But a lot of people provided very valid criticism that pretty much formed the paladin to what it is now.

That's where you stand if you have BoF, if you have BoL you stand with the ranged. It doesn't make any sense to stand in melee with BoL. You want to spread your two mastery circles to cover both groups.

[Deleted]

Never understood the whole "we are doomed!" panic that some high end raiders were spreading before Legion. Did we play the same beta?

Yes, our mastery is cluncky AF, so as our Artifact ability (it's OP in 5 man though). But the core mechanic was still there and I've yet to see a boss fight where two tanks are not getting damaged in some shape or form, e.g. making our two beacons doing most of hard lifting regarding tank healing in the raid. Our MA is better than before, not great, but good. Even our 5 man kit is much better with BoV. And they are buffing that shit, can you belive it?

Because the spec was a disaster early beta, the issues were never about how much hps paladins could do because that was for the most part always fine, it was about the design of the spec.

It has improved a lot since then but they quite frankly still has some way to go, this is not just me talking BS it is something Blizzard agrees with, just take a look at our legendaries on live vs PTR, 5 out of 8 legendaries are getting big buffs and two new amazing hpala legendaries are being added to the game. This is a QoL/HPS buff to 95% of all holy paladins out there, the only way you are not affected by that change is if you already have shoulders + ring.

Then theres the talents which are still wildly unbalanced, again dont take my word for it take a look on warcraftlogs statistics, BoF 53.2%, RoL 71.3%, HA 52.8%, BF 77.6%, AoM 61.6% and at the oposite end of the spectrum you have BoV at 1.4%, Cavalier at 10.4%, CM at 6.3% etc etc.

Then theres the things you mentioned yourself like the artifact ability being a joke and everyones favorite spell, light of the martyr. So lets not pretend paladins are perfect and have no room for improvements. Oh and I challenge you to find a single post where Aladya talked about how our hps were shit because that was never the problem, not objectively and not in his opinion either.

[Supliftz]

Oh and I challenge you to find a single post where Aladya talked about how our hps were shit because that was never the problem, not objectively and not in his opinion either.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure at world 3000 paladins are viable and Blizz is surprised more raiders haven't used versatility stacking. I'm trying to not sound rude here really hard because my opinion about paladins is right now below dumpster tier.

Limited in how much I can talk about this, but long story short there's not enough hps to account for lacking utility/mobility/raid cd/legendary factor. The only reason to use a paladin atm in EN is freedom and bop(and neither is useful on the last boss). I cannot give you more specifics.

thinkingemoji

[Deleted]

thinkingemoji

So his posistion was that to make up for lack of utility/mobility/raid cd/legendary factor you need more hps not that paladins were getting outhealed by other classes. I.e if you want to bring a paladin over resto shaman they should do considerably more hps.

Whether or not you agree with his opinion it was never about "paladin doing too low hps". It was about the entire package.

Also I would think that you agree with him considering you play the highest hps healer while giving up the kind of things resto shamans have?

[Deleted]

Cheers for the tips Lestrang and Trm90 - makes sense that the cost of BoV is irrelevant when you can drink between pulls on M+