Dakota Pipeline Protests

[Kryos]

This is not remotely feasible in the short run.

I never said short run, but even a long run starts with a first step. Right now I see just some big words and vague statements that USA plans to do the first step sometimes in the far future and if they don't then there will be no consequences... but they say they really really want to start with the first step. But right now let's eat another big slice of the tasty oil cake that made us happy and fat for so long. Yeah, the big run... maybe tomorrow... or later. With Trump they even dismiss the whole idea of the long run. Eat more oil cake, who cares about getting sick.

Start with taxing CO2. That will change everything. Right now the cost for CO2 is zero. If you had to pay for CO2, even a little bit, it would be a big reason to reduce your CO2 emissions. It would create incentive to build new machines and tech. You need to hire people to do that. There you have your new jobs. Since producing CO2 would be expensive, people would buy products that don't generate CO2 or less of it. The sales of electric and hybrid cars would boost. New products that sell = new profits. Building the infrastructure for solar based cities is also a big task and will also create new jobs. Just like the invention of the car shaped the cities and created billions of jobs, the clearn energy revolution could, too. If the country would support it and not try everything to stop it from happening.

[Shadowferal]

Just say no to oil? LOL, you aren't serious are you?
or no to useing our own oil supply and just buy it from countries that really violate human rights and support terrorist?

The decision against the Keystone XL Pipeline...is laughing at you.
Even more laughable; the US is already currently the largest oil and gas producer.

Competing groups are trying to define the Dakota Access pipeline debate. So where does the truth lie?

Pressure mounts on Obama to end Dakota pipeline standoff

[Spectral]

I never said short run, but even a long run starts with a first step. Right now I see just some big words and vague statements that USA plans to do the first step sometimes in the far future and if they don't then there will be no consequences... but we really really want to start with the first step. But right now let's eat another big slice of the tasty oil cake that made us happy and fat for so long. Yeah, the big run... maybe tomorrow... or later.

We kind of need to focus on order of operations here though - turning off the energy spigot on the basis that someday we're going to build solar is a pretty bad idea. Let's start getting solar (and nuclear IMO) in place to an extent that makes more than a minor dent and then stop approving new pipelines. For the time being, we're going to need a lot of oil for the foreseeable future.

[Shadowferal]

Ya can't drink the oil, or clean/bathe in it

[Direpenguin]

Fuck their sacred sites.

So religious superstition is important, but only when it coincides with the Evil Corporation, or suppressed minorities narrative(s)?

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The DAPL thing is one of those deals where on the surface when you see Native Americans seemingly being wronged again, and terrible pictures of people being hosed your heart goes out to them.

But when you look into this whole thing further, if you look at the Native American lands per the 1851 Treaty of Fort Laramie the pipeline doesn't even go through them. It goes near the NE corner of them, but that's it. You'd think for all the protesting that the pipeline goes right through the middle of their lands and that's not at all the case. Could a spill near their lands cross-over? I suppose, but it's a pipeline and so if there's a break anywhere they will quickly turn off a valve ahead of it. It's not like Deepwater Horizon where it will pour oil out uncontrolled for weeks.

And there are always these eminent domain things for the better infrastructure of our country. The whole idea is to move oil more efficiently and safer than by rail as it's done today. If they don't do the pipeline they'll continue to have trainloads of oil by rail taking a similar path. And that's probably more risky to the lands of an accident. If we took this approach to everything there wouldn't be highways, or airports, or railroads. The people there in the lands have cars too, which use gas, so it's kind of hypocritical to be anti-oil. It's like how everyone wants an airport close enough to not have to drive far when they want to take a trip by plane, but they just don't want an airport near them because of the noise. Or they love bacon but don't put a hog farm within 100 miles. It reminds me of the semi-truck bumper sticker I often see that says "If you don't like all the trucks on the highway quit buying so much stuff at WalMart".

And what escalated this was when the workers on the pipeline started having construction equipment vandalized and even torched at night. The law enforcement have been going a little overboard with the pretend soldier bit as they often tend to do, but it's not been completely innocent on the other side either.

But... corporations... man...

[Kryos]

Fuck their sacred sites.

It's their land. So you would be ok if a company would just destroy your home because they feel like it and give a fuck about your legal papers?

[Spectral]

It's their land. So you would be ok if a company would just destroy your home because they feel like it and give a fuck about your legal papers?

It's actually not their land. It's near their land.

[Shadowferal]

It's actually not their land. It's near their land.

Clean water site makes that distinction irrelevant.

[Spectral]

Clean water site makes that distinction irrelevant.

1. The claim was regarding "sacred land" - it's literally not their land, regardless of whether they think it's sacred.
2. Declaring that anything that's part of your water table is literally your land is obviously absurd.

[Shadowferal]

1. The claim was regarding "sacred land" - it's literally not their land, regardless of whether they think it's sacred.
2. Declaring that anything that's part of your water table is literally your land is obviously absurd.

If it was your source of clean water you'd be arming yourself and joining them.

[Spectral]

If it was your source of clean water you'd be arming yourself and joining them.

Whether I would or wouldn't isn't an actually an argument that it's their land. You've just moved the goalposts.

[Shadowferal]

Whether I would or wouldn't isn't an actually an argument that it's their land. You've just moved the goalposts.

I had initially given a link to what happens when clean water goes away. That was always part of the argument. If you want to imagine differently through your own very selective reading then no argument will penetrate your creative logic.

[iperson]

If it was your source of clean water you'd be arming yourself and joining them.

It's downstream of their clean water supply. Care to try again?

[Spectral]

I had initially given a link to what happens when clean water goes away. That was always part of the argument. If you want to imagine differently through your own very selective reading then no argument will penetrate your creative logic.

Reading the words "it's their land" and replying to it isn't selective reading. You can't just jump into a conversation someone else is having and get irritated when it turns out I was replying to someone's actual words.

But anyway, the notion that a tribe or other organization should have full carte blanche to stop everything going on upstream of them at their sole discretion is still pretty ridiculous. Again, what you're really arguing for here isn't some standard version of property rights (which would be and has been adjudicated by courts) but just a de facto ban on all oil pipelines.

[Shadowferal]

It's downstream of their clean water supply. Care to try again?

Are you that stupid to risk a clean water supply?
I guess so...when it's not your supply.

[iperson]

Are you that stupid to risk a clean water supply?
I guess so...when it's not your supply.

Don't let science or those pesky facts get in the way of your outrage...

[Kryos]

1. The claim was regarding "sacred land" - it's literally not their land, regardless of whether they think it's sacred.
2. Declaring that anything that's part of your water table is literally your land is obviously absurd.

So if someone opens a stinking landfill or a pig farm 5 yards in front of your house, you are ok with that since it's not on your land anymore?

[Shadowferal]

Don't let science or those pesky facts get in the way of your outrage...

Sure...don't let your brand of intellect get in the way of having (not much of) an argument...because your claim isn't relevant to the risk. That shit is just too close.

Seriously, wtf was your argument when Keystone XL Pipeline was getting hashed about?

[iperson]

So if someone opens a stinking landfill or a pig farm 5 yards in front of your house, you are ok with that since it's not on your land anymore?

no one's house is near this and there's no chance the reservations water supply will be contaminated. Even if anyone lived near it they would neither see nor smell it...

[Kryos]

no one's house is near this and there's no chance the reservations water supply will be contaminated. Even if anyone lived near it they would neither see nor smell it...

You are wrong, you look at the old plans. This is the new plans and they go right through their land and endanger sacred sites and water ressources:



Bismarck was afraid of the pipeline crossing the Missouri once. Now the build over four rivers in Sioux Territory including a lake in the Missouri. This is not right and only shows the double standards.

Now they want to move the protesters away from the pipeline so they won't bother them doing their unjust illegal work:

The Corps of Engineers has established a free speech zone on land south of the Cannonball River for anyone wishing to peaceably protest the Dakota Access pipeline project, subject to the rules of 36 C.F.R. Part 327. In these areas, jurisdiction for police, fire, and medical response is better defined making it a more sustainable area for visitors to endure the harsh North Dakota winter [Henderson to Archambault, 2016.11.25].