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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiftyonred View Post
    Which logged numbers? Define "better" through numbers in a mythic+ setting. You can't. It's not just about damage.
    Go look at warcraft logs and/or run some high end mythics (10-15). We are only competitive with ED + IFE.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by PowerGamez View Post
    Go look at warcraft logs and/or run some high end mythics (10-15). We are only competitive with ED + IFE.
    I hate when people say this. Honestly, how many class are viable without their BiS legendarys? Not many, and those that are are getting nerfed

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeflin View Post
    Are the forgotten spirits in arcway immune to silence?
    Not just silence, either. They're immune to spell lockout and will simply start a new cast no matter what.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    Must have just been specific mobs. and players.

    Despite any of that it doesnt change the fact that mobs can just be aoe stunned for the same duration, preventing casting and physical. Its not THAT great an ability
    "just"? You need a minimum of 2 AE stuns for that, both of which also take a GCD. After that, you can at most stun them for 1 more second before they become immune, while our silence would still last the full 8 seconds.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Not just silence, either. They're immune to spell lockout and will simply start a new cast no matter what.

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    "just"? You need a minimum of 2 AE stuns for that, both of which also take a GCD. After that, you can at most stun them for 1 more second before they become immune, while our silence would still last the full 8 seconds.
    Right, its great on high hp caster packs. Unfortunately those are not a common thing.
    6 seconds of stun on every mob is generally better than 8 seconds of silence on the caster mob (which can likely be shutdown by tank+melee anyway.

    I like solar beam. Its great, especially in RBGs where you can combo your stuns and silences.
    But having it is no justification for any of our other issues. Others have stuns and other utility, and maintain a powerful damage toolkit at the same

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    Right, its great on high hp caster packs. Unfortunately those are not a common thing.
    6 seconds of stun on every mob is generally better than 8 seconds of silence on the caster mob (which can likely be shutdown by tank+melee anyway.

    I like solar beam. Its great, especially in RBGs where you can combo your stuns and silences.
    But having it is no justification for any of our other issues. Others have stuns and other utility, and maintain a powerful damage toolkit at the same
    We are talking about high level M+ where mobs usually live atleast 30 seconds. Id much rather have a caster mob melee me rather than cast chaos bolts/heal/fear/stuns. IDK how you can say you prefer a 1 sec DR stun over a 8 second silence

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by MV Kaa View Post
    We are talking about high level M+ where mobs usually live atleast 30 seconds. Id much rather have a caster mob melee me rather than cast chaos bolts/heal/fear/stuns. IDK how you can say you prefer a 1 sec DR stun over a 8 second silence
    Because you forgot about the first 5 seconds of taking NO damage from ANY target (DH chaos nova), followed up by additional stuns, and then taking no damage from the caster still due to melee and tank interrupt. And then the 1s DR stun.
    Luckily enough, you will be able to use those AoE stuns again in 45s (shorter in some cases) to prevent all damage again.

    What pack are you fighting where an 8 second silence is better than that? Im actually curious.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    Because you forgot about the first 5 seconds of taking NO damage from ANY target (DH chaos nova), followed up by additional stuns, and then taking no damage from the caster still due to melee and tank interrupt. And then the 1s DR stun.
    Luckily enough, you will be able to use those AoE stuns again in 45s (shorter in some cases) to prevent all damage again.

    What pack are you fighting where an 8 second silence is better than that? Im actually curious.
    Slightly offtopic, but there's only two sets of adds, that I can think of, where Solar Beam works well: the mana wyrms in Arcway and the Horrors in DHT. Even then, a 5 sec stun outperforms that because there's no chance the effect will end early by mob movement, like with Solar Beam.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by PowerGamez View Post
    Go look at warcraft logs and/or run some high end mythics (10-15). We are only competitive with ED + IFE.
    I ran that, with my Druid mate. So I think this is a Learn to play issue really, especially since you are referring to damage logs to establish how good a given class is for mythic+ content lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    You actually think groups try to combo 3 aoe stuns after one another? No.
    Again, it doesnt change the fact that it 99% of cases a stun (with followup single interrupts) is better than an aoe silence.

    Im sure you could give some examples where you prefer the solar beam over an aoe stun? I cant think of many.
    Imps in court of stars? should be dead easily after 2 stuns. What else?

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    The issue is that utility spills into raids, where utility is worth a big fat 0.
    Should i use treants to get some extra dps on Mythic Guarm? Maybe i can help offtank it? Oh i know, il solar beam him for a trinket proc chance
    Raids whatever, but we are also talking about mythic+ and in an expansion were dungeons are every bit as valid PvE content as raids, being good in dungeons are equally important. And here, Balance is fucking awesome.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    "just"? You need a minimum of 2 AE stuns for that, both of which also take a GCD. After that, you can at most stun them for 1 more second before they become immune, while our silence would still last the full 8 seconds.
    Funny that you still can't spit out a single example where solar beam way better than aoe stun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiftyonred View Post
    Which logged numbers? Define "better" through numbers in a mythic+ setting. You can't. It's not just about damage.
    You do realize that balance is the least present dps spec in mythic+ 12 or above right? Blizz just released the ladder. Go check the numbers yourself.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiftyonred View Post
    I ran that, with my Druid mate. So I think this is a Learn to play issue really, especially since you are referring to damage logs to establish how good a given class is for mythic+ content lol

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    Raids whatever, but we are also talking about mythic+ and in an expansion were dungeons are every bit as valid PvE content as raids, being good in dungeons are equally important. And here, Balance is fucking awesome.
    We are ok for mythic+. not fucking awesome, or the ranks would have far more balance druid.
    We are not entirely useless, we can clear a 15, but the difference in throughput can still be adjusted to bring us up.

    Mythic 15 also doesnt compare to mythic raids if we're being honest, but they sure offer at least something challenging that previous expansions didnt, which is great

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobjorn View Post
    Funny that you still can't spit out a single example where solar beam way better than aoe stun.

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    You do realize that balance is the least present dps spec in mythic+ 12 or above right? Blizz just released the ladder. Go check the numbers yourself.
    I dont mean to point this out as a point of argument, but saying beam is as good as a stun, or a reason for lower damage isnt valid in most situations

  11. #91
    If balance druid needs any kind of tweaks it would only be either Starfalls dmg or dots dmg. We are said to be a heavy dot class, but I dont really feel that. And yes we are pretty weak in low lvl mythic dungeons, but pretty strong in the higher levels where the trash lives for more than 5 sec.

    What I would like to see, is the removal of Fury of Elune and make it an ability that have one 1 or 1½ min CD that applies both dots on the target and all targets within 10-15yards. Or atleast if we have to keep FoE, make us cast while moving when it is up. It is so stupid when using it, we cannot dodge any mechanics without loosing it, and in that case either of the two other talents would be better. Or decrease the drain abit.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by joltcola1234 View Post
    This is way to extreme imo. AoE doesn't need anywhere near a complete rework, we just need to get to our maximum output quicker. Echoing Stars could be stronger, really we need more burst AoE potential. I understand that Blizzard doesn't feel that everyone needs this, unfortunately that's not how the players feel and not what design calls for in mythic+

    Simple fact is, if a class doesn't posses burst AoE, they aren't going to be desired for mythic+ and that needs to be viewed as a problem from blizzards end.

    I agree that FoE needs a change, it's simply to difficult and to unreliable to use in it's current state. It's use is way to niche, and it's to unforgiving if even a tiny mistake is made. Mathematically the talent is good, conceptually it's pretty fun...but practically it's just not possible to use right now.
    Its not extreme because all of things that i mentioned are bad. If things are bad they need tweaking / rework.

    -Buffing Starfall alone does not work because adding 20-30% more dmg to it will stil make it shit spell to use. And even then its completely plausible that we would be using it on ST. So there is literally no way of buffing it without causing it to become ST spell too which its not meant to be.

    -Éven our maximum output is behind a lot to top aoe DPS. Yes a lot. I've been pulling 700-800k constant aoe when pack has lasted quite lot and i still see a lot of speccs doing double or triple amount of that. So issue is not our burst but our potential aoe dmg

    -Problem is not our burst aoe but completely lackluster aoe. For multidoting spriest and affliction is better. Sustained aoe / burst many other speccs are far superior.

    The fact is that i listed all the problems that balance has or will have. Specc is beyong broken. Why do we have 2x AOE spells that consumes Astral power? Why our dps relies completely about the fact that do we have to move or not? Why do blizz designs legendaries that has effect which should be baseline? Who the fuck designed FOE and thought it was good spell? I like FoE's idea but i don't like how punishing it is.

  13. #93
    Totally wouldn't mind seeing FoE changed and become baseline.

    Something in the lines of the same damage, 10 sec duration and it generating AP/sec instead of consuming it.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen- View Post
    Nope! Instead we get a mobility nerf ontop of the mobility nerf we got in legion...
    We never had any mobility to begin with... How can they possibly nerf it?
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > ShaLa > MoP > DF > BfA > WoD = WotLK

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  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    If you actually read what they said, mechanically they're happy with it, but said it needs a few number tweaks and buffs.
    The patch notes are not done. There will be number changes for balance when the actual balancing phase comes in.
    Yeah, I read that as well. I hope they do some tweaking. I was doing great on Warcraft logs until everyone else got one of three good legendaries.

    I think wrath and lunarstrike need a small buff, moonfire and sunfire get a mediocre buff, and Starfall to get supreme lord of buffs.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by bubbadubba View Post
    Yeah, I read that as well. I hope they do some tweaking. I was doing great on Warcraft logs until everyone else got one of three good legendaries.

    I think wrath and lunarstrike need a small buff, moonfire and sunfire get a mediocre buff, and Starfall to get supreme lord of buffs.
    Yeah i'd agree with all of that.

    2 or so more weeks and we should start to see number tuning.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Still, telling people to "get better" doesn't help anybody and is functionally identical to telling people they suck.
    So if a person sucks you don't tell them?
    That is more harmful to the player than letting them know they suck. Of cause saying it in the right way is important other than say you suck then leave.
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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by DonDalle View Post
    If balance druid needs any kind of tweaks it would only be either Starfalls dmg or dots dmg. We are said to be a heavy dot class, but I dont really feel that. And yes we are pretty weak in low lvl mythic dungeons, but pretty strong in the higher levels where the trash lives for more than 5 sec.

    What I would like to see, is the removal of Fury of Elune and make it an ability that have one 1 or 1½ min CD that applies both dots on the target and all targets within 10-15yards. Or atleast if we have to keep FoE, make us cast while moving when it is up. It is so stupid when using it, we cannot dodge any mechanics without loosing it, and in that case either of the two other talents would be better. Or decrease the drain abit.
    I feel like we are a jack of no trades, a class that wants to be considered something but is not the ideal class at any of it. Dots in your case is a perfect example, we seem like we should be a dot class when we have meh dot damage.

    I hate FoE to be honest, not that it is difficult, just annoying to pull off and not worth it.

    I think NB should be a part of the class and in its place we get a talent that when you lunarstrike a target with moonfire, it spreads to another target, if no target close by it causes moonfire to deal 1 tick of damage. Solar wrath and sunfire would need to get something as well with it but can't think of something that isn't to over powered. Maybe cause solar wrath cause sunfire to spark causing it to deal an extra tick of damage on the main target and 50% of a tick on targets around the main target with sunfire.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Because so far there have been only mechanics changes and they already told us they're mostly happy with how Moonkin play, just not with their damage output.

    Our changes will come towards the end of the PTR cycle.

    Honestly I think they are in good shape playstyle wise this expansion we just need some number tweaking. One quality of life change I would like to see though is kinda what they did for demonology have our astral power refil to 40 or 50 AP when out of combat for a while. This would help the initial prime the pump issues we have especially when trying to get AOE rolling. DPS gain overal is not going to be huge with that on any boss but makes doing trash packs a lot less painful by being able to get into our rotation faster.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Taalyn View Post
    First when you told Gebuz to get better I thought you were a troll. Then you said Balance is good in M+ so I thought you were a dedicated troll. Then you said Elemental is bad in M+ and now you're telling people to get good based on logs. You're either a very dedicated troll or very misguided. If you base a specs performance on logs you really shouldnt. I'm usually in the 75th percentile and I know there's huge room for improvement which I actively work on. On Xavius though I'm in the 90th percentile. Why? Because he's on farm so I pad the meters with Starfall on tentacles. And that right there is why you don't base a specs performance on logs. They are very misleading.

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    Also Guardian Affinity is not taken so you can emergency tank. It's taken for Thick Hide which is being nerfed. I can tank better in Moonkin Form than I can in Bear Form.
    I was told you take Guardian Affinity for Thick hide but you took it for Frenzied Regen.

    Resto Affinity is better on terms of passive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xqt View Post
    There are People with 0 Legendary that play since Legion launch. But yeah i guess that they arent investing much time huh?
    That or you got the wrong legendaries. I got the chest which I was pissed about, I am waiting to get my Prydaz shortly. I play 6 hours a day on average, farming dungeons or raiding and only have gotten one legendary. I have an alt but I only do Emm quests on, has two legendaries already and I barely play the thing. Some people are just unlucky.

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