PvP Design Legion .. Good or Bad?

[Cempa]

Most builds have the ability to hit you with +8xx / +9xx in a single global and with RNG pretty much end you inside of a hard CC .. Add to that some healing builds can solo DPS hard -all be it with in CD's.

Go out questing and everything changes, getting blown up is a normal occurrence, being a tank is being immortal ...

Is this the kind of design you like?

[Krusza]

No.

The PvP design in terms of systems (except how obtaining elite gear works), I do like. In terms of actual gameplay, no.

There are next to no mechanics involved in the game, you can't really tell the difference between a good and bad player anymore. It's true that there were backpeddling rets and DKs at 2100+ MMR, probably more specs also.

Counter comps completely counter due to there being no way to outplay anymore and it all comes down to damage. You might say "it's always been like that" but it's never been close to that level this expansion. A common thought at the end of an arena game is "Why did we lose?" "I don't know" because there's literally 0 depth to arena gameplay anymore.

And yes, World PvP. Dead. Server sharding and lack of PvP templates make it unplayable. Includes dueling, obviously.

I can't see how anyone can enjoy PvP gameplay in it's current state. I'm hoping the honor talent revamp and the "return of several utility spells" make it a bit better. Until then, trash.

[xZerocidex]

No.

The PvP design in terms of systems (except how obtaining elite gear works), I do like. In terms of actual gameplay, no.

There are next to no mechanics involved in the game, you can't really tell the difference between a good and bad player anymore. It's true that there were backpeddling rets and DKs at 2100+ MMR, probably more specs also.

Counter comps completely counter due to there being no way to outplay anymore and it all comes down to damage. You might say "it's always been like that" but it's never been close to that level this expansion. A common thought at the end of an arena game is "Why did we lose?" "I don't know" because there's literally 0 depth to arena gameplay anymore.

And yes, World PvP. Dead. Server sharding and lack of PvP templates make it unplayable. Includes dueling, obviously.

I can't see how anyone can enjoy PvP gameplay in it's current state. I'm hoping the honor talent revamp and the "return of several utility spells" make it a bit better. Until then, trash.

Well said.

[Deleted]

What Kraszz said. The game has no depth anymore, it's all been pruned away and made faceroll.

[Tyrannica]

And yes, World PvP. Dead. Server sharding and lack of PvP templates make it unplayable. Includes dueling, obviously.

World pvp is dead since cross realm was reduced to helheim and underbelly again after a hotfix, before this all hell broke out, actually!

Seems some sissys and their friends complained too much about some pvp in their little world.

I bet you mean pvp STAT templates, because abilitiy templates are working in wpvp and duels, well to be honest i am against the stat template concept.

People should finally learn how to gear their character after 12 years in a MMORPG game...better have a diverse pvp gear set that scales up in anything pvp in the open world, not everything was bad in WoD after all, it seems. Basing everything in the open world on high ilvl will never work, because most people can't be arsed to do challenging content - resulting in poor, unchallenging wpvp if it would ever exist, that is.

[BannedForViews]

They are too slow to respond to imbalance imo. Look no further than Affliction UA backlash. It is still a profitable decision to dispel UA off the target.

[Saberstrike]

Things are better than expected after MoP and WoD basically sent the bar so low it's now applying for Chinese citizenship. Not great. But at least most classes / specs are playable in one way or the other. And for all the whining about 'meleecraft' I think I've lost more to mages than I ever have to melee.

Yes, wizards are no longer just 'melee but better'. I hope that's here to stay. I honestly have more fun with huge melee skirmishes in BGs than with CC-spamming wizard-trains. And guess what? For all the whining about how wizards can't keep up the GOOD moonkins / mages / wlocks / shadow priests / eles are -still- wrecking face. I'm sorry but if you're a mop-baby warlock who got used to being an untouchable god class I have no sympathy for you, and if you leave because 'but muh faesroll!!!!!' -- honestly, game is better off without you.

I do hate -some- instances of horrible design (auto-bubble, frost mages, one-button sub rogues, vanish still existing as a spell, and warriors as always being garbage for 75% of the expac), but overall I'm just happy I get to actually fight people and control my character at least most of the time now.

[Gratlim]

Hate it. They took away the ability to personalize your toons while in instanced pvp. We are just templates based on ilvl alone. We can't gear for burst or survivability anymore for instance.
The way pvp gear is rewarded is horrible. (PVE is much easier to get to high ilvl = bad design)
Pvp talents are a good idea though. A step in the right direction.
Balance is broken as ever. But never before have casters been so bad in battlegrounds. They should have pruned interupts and more stuns. Or increase casts damage a lot.
Note: I cba about arena. Having a pocket healer change the perception of balance.

[Deleted]

The depth of gameplay has really suffered in PvP. But to be honest, this is not really something that started with Legion. I mostly agree with Krassz. The system iteself is good (except maybe RNG loot instead of currencies) with tuning down gear influence.

It's definitely an improvement though after PvP went downhill for like 2 or 3 expansions. They removed too much abilities that allowed for outplaying over the last expansions and while there was some hope that they could reintroduce such things with honor talents, there is not much in there that changes playstyle a lot.

[Riistov]

No.

The PvP design in terms of systems (except how obtaining elite gear works), I do like. In terms of actual gameplay, no.

There are next to no mechanics involved in the game, you can't really tell the difference between a good and bad player anymore. It's true that there were backpeddling rets and DKs at 2100+ MMR, probably more specs also.

Counter comps completely counter due to there being no way to outplay anymore and it all comes down to damage. You might say "it's always been like that" but it's never been close to that level this expansion. A common thought at the end of an arena game is "Why did we lose?" "I don't know" because there's literally 0 depth to arena gameplay anymore.

And yes, World PvP. Dead. Server sharding and lack of PvP templates make it unplayable. Includes dueling, obviously.

I can't see how anyone can enjoy PvP gameplay in it's current state. I'm hoping the honor talent revamp and the "return of several utility spells" make it a bit better. Until then, trash.

Totally agree with you on the point regarding counter comps. Pre-WoD, there was ALWAYS a way to beat your counter comp. It might be slim, but there was still a chance to grind them down, make a play, save a teammate with a utility spell. Specifically, I remember playing Ele shaman all through MoP and being able to pull off that clutch healing tide to bring the team back up while the healer was locked down.

[RelaZ]

Its the worst its ever been.

Four reasons:

1) Class design is utter shit. Even with PvP honor talents basically all specs are retardedly one dimensional and with a skillcap almost rivaling tbc (and thats not a good thing). Biggest reason by far, could live with all the others if class design was somewhere between MoP and WoD. skillful utility and CC is all but a fading memory replaced by "skillful" mechanics such as auto bubble, calming water and the new spell reflection.

2) RNG gearing. Yeah... playing for months on end and still missing those titanforge ilvls. PvP is about even playing field, this is so anti that its not even funny.

3) PvE > PvP gear. PvE gear is much easier to acquire and also has a higher top ilvl (as far as Im aware?). Thus PvPing to get gear is just retarded.

4) The grind. If you start late you have to farm 30+ artifact traits to be fully competitive - which takes months. On top of that you have PvP talents and gear which all take quite some time. Whereas in WoD PvP gear was the best in PvP and took like 10hrs to get (PvE gear was still decent). Thats months of prep to be competitive compared to days (especially late in season with the old catchup).

Also Krassz, with regards to class design, didnt I tell you this was exactly what was going to happen already in beta (or was it alpha?). We had some heated discussions in the Druid forums. Anyway it seems we agree now haha ☺.

[Krusza]

Its the worst its ever been.

Four reasons:

1) Class design is utter shit. Even with PvP honor talents basically all specs are retardedly one dimensional and with a skillcap almost rivaling tbc (and thats not a good thing). Biggest reason by far, could live with all the others if class design was somewhere between MoP and WoD. skillful utility and CC is all but a fading memory replaced by "skillful" mechanics such as auto bubble, calming water and the new spell reflection.

2) RNG gearing. Yeah... playing for months on end and still missing those titanforge ilvls. PvP is about even playing field, this is so anti that its not even funny.

3) PvE > PvP gear. PvE gear is much easier to acquire and also has a higher top ilvl (as far as Im aware?). Thus PvPing to get gear is just retarded.

4) The grind. If you start late you have to farm 30+ artifact traits to be fully competitive - which takes months. On top of that you have PvP talents and gear which all take quite some time. Whereas in WoD PvP gear was the best in PvP and took like 10hrs to get (PvE gear was still decent). Thats months of prep to be competitive compared to days (especially late in season with the old catchup).

Also Krassz, with regards to class design, didnt I tell you this was exactly what was going to happen already in beta (or was it alpha?). We had some heated discussions in the Druid forums. Anyway it seems we agree now haha ☺.

To be fair, I did like it during beta, and I was still enjoying it in 7.0

It was 7.1 that took it to absolutely shit levels.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

Absolutely terrible, like usual.

Vanilla had the best design hands down, and it showed.

[Krusza]

Absolutely terrible, like usual.

Vanilla had the best design hands down, and it showed.

Vanilla gameplay was probably even worse than Legion. There was no such thing as "balance" even in the mind of devs.

Not really a criticism though as the game was new and it was 2005.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

[QUOTE=Krassz;43516010]Vanilla gameplay was probably even worse than Legion. There was no such thing as "balance" even in the mind of devs.

Don't care, the Rank 1-14 system was still the coolest thing they ever implemented into the game. Simple. Play a lot, get cool stuff.

No bullshit "e-sports", no bullshit "muh skill", just fun and community.

[Krusza]

[QUOTE=High Marshal Sigismund;43516063]

Vanilla gameplay was probably even worse than Legion. There was no such thing as "balance" even in the mind of devs.

Don't care, the Rank 1-14 system was still the coolest thing they ever implemented into the game. Simple. Play a lot, get cool stuff.

No bullshit "e-sports", no bullshit "muh skill", just fun and community.

I agree, I did like the ranking system.

The actual gameplay did suck though. Not for it's time, but it wouldn't pass these days.

[Tyrannica]

Vanilla gameplay was probably even worse than Legion. There was no such thing as "balance" even in the mind of devs.

Not really a criticism though as the game was new and it was 2005.

I much prefered BC PvP. It was a little bit better balanced and included no hard-pvp balance and no templates not so many restrictions like stupid cds on rogue stuns, there was still the term "stunlock" and it was feared, like actually warlock fears that could lock you down and did not break on moderate dmg, healers were not immortals, too. Overall i had more fun with more uncontrolled pvp balance than with those many pvp templates that destroy classes.(the rogue for now in 7.1.) I know a raider who will never return to pvp, since he said he does not enjoy it anymore after they removed ranks in vanilla thats his decision, though.

titles are nice but not that important, i liked how pvp was actually fun to do and some wpvp - in that regard i consider Bc and partly mop the best expierence because of their wpvp isles, even though, mop allready had too many restrictions to be truly fun anymore.

For some strange reasions, people in the vanilla/bc/wotlk era did not need so many restrictions in pvp to enjoy their game, also worst idea in legion ever were stat templates to remove the last bit of customization from a class, devs press really hard into esport, while this is just a MMORPG and will not be enjoyable with so much paternalism.

The only thing that was fun for me was really wpvp with balanced factions and no crossrealm/connected servers. It made pvp so much more personal and exciting.

And while some pvpers claim 3s is the most important aspect of pvp, i yet have a hard time to find a majority of people to agree with that, because pvp is really dead/dead alltogether.

[Deleted]

They just need to nerf/change all the braindead melee specs (Arms/Frost/Ret/Demon Hunter, WW Monk) and make the game about cc/coordination again.

Games shouldn't be won through tunneling a target and occasionally using an instant cast cc on the healer.

[Cempa]

They just need to nerf/change all the braindead melee specs (Arms/Frost/Ret/Demon Hunter, WW Monk) and make the game about cc/coordination again.

Games shouldn't be won through tunneling a target and occasionally using an instant cast cc on the healer.

No one would play that game!

Seeing how they have been simplifying and speeding up game play?

[High Marshal Sigismund]

They just need to nerf/change all the braindead melee specs (Arms/Frost/Ret/Demon Hunter, WW Monk) and make the game about cc/coordination again.

Games shouldn't be won through tunneling a target and occasionally using an instant cast cc on the healer.

Translation: I'm terrible at the game and can't handle melee classes on my caster.

The game has always been about CC/coordination. Try moving up from your 1400 rating games.