Mythic Odyn Difficulty

[Ebalina]

It's not advice, it's facts.

When world rank 680 raiders start thinking not having 35 traits is what is holding them back it's them thinking they're better than they really are.

You obivously like to read what ever you want i'm not thinking it.
It has been said by the world 1st guilds that numbers on Guarm/Heilya are tuned for 35 traits on your dps.
Unless you want to resort for 1 tanking 3 healing on Guarm to be able to meet the enrage with less traits.

The 35trait is 5% flat dps increase for each dps there is no ifs or buts on this one it is needed.
What ever is holding my guild back is my problem not yours but you need to learn and actually use your head before shit posting.

And before you go and say "no one said it" look at the time spent from guilds like method/serenity/exorsus and others spamming mythic+ just to be able to reach the 35 trait to make their life a hell lot easy'er.

You can also deduct by Danish terraces stream on Guarm from Yverr where he say's 7 ppl out of the raiding grp have 35 traits and i think 2 of them weren't even in their raid for Guarm.
Took them around 12h to learn the fight and to get blessed with the RNG number to kill it cause they were always short by 2-5% on most of their best try's.
I spent around 4h watching them and they got world 3rd kill on heilya so you coming here thinking you know something about something actually feels rather funny when you have absolutely no frigging clue.

Guarm/Heilya are tuned around 35 traits on at leat 70% of your raiding grp Odyn is a fight based on self responsability but as usual the more dps you have the less fight lasts the less room for mistakes so gtfo .

[Threndsa]

I kinda think that, while ToV is certainly overtuned for the level of gear it drops, the difficulty is right where it should be. EN was easy. If ToV had been just as faceroll progression raiders would have gone a long time without something to sink their teeth into.

The 35th trait IS a big deal. It's a flat 5% dps boost full stop. Any low percentage wipes probably won't have happened if everyone had them, and in a fight like Helya killing slimes/adds/tentacles faster can drastically improve the qualify of a run.

ToV will likely gather dust once nighthold comes out as there really isn't anything there worthwhile and the fights are difficult enough that they won't really be faceroll until you well overgear them. Until then it's doing it's job as a filler and keeping people busy.

[Marrilaife]

ToV will likely gather dust once nighthold comes out as there really isn't anything there worthwhile and the fights are difficult enough that they won't really be faceroll until you well overgear them.

Yeah, sad fate of "filler raids", Halion was the same, didn't feel that worthwhile. The vrykul mog gear isn't really all that exciting either. If they put a mount in there, or even 3 pets, people would want to go back to get those even after Nighthold starts.

The timing with the 5% dps artifact trait is a bit off as well, for Nighthold you can kinda expect everyone who plays and didn't reroll will have it, atm it created a toxic situation where people realized they suddenly should bust their asses off to farm a couple of million artifact power in a week. Can you do it without? Maybe, but why risk? Rather make the whole guild nolife mythic+ for a week or two just to be safe. I really wonder how guilds who do split runs and maintain many raiding alts coped with the situation. Getting 35 points in 1 spec on 1 char is not a tragedy, but on multiple specs or multiple alts?

[Deleted]

I'd just chill for the next 6 weeks, heroic nighthold will drop the same ilvl gear baseline, arguably better since tier bonuses. Enjoy the holidays

Guilds in the OP's shoes will definitely take this approach whenever there's about 3 weeks left until Nighthold, if some won't start already in the next week or two.

It's good they buffed the ilvls by 5 though or many would skip it entirely (unless it was EN level difficulty)

Even that 5 Ilvs not help me all Myth gear from this raid from first 2 bosses is not a upgrade on my Heroic EN gear Only reason to go there is to get the achievement 1 time (just like i did with NM in WoD)

[Flazian]

Odyn feels fine. After like 5 pulls the fight felt so easy to me since it's the exact same thing for x minutes. No real big dps check if you have enough runebearer damage since that's the biggest cause for downtime on boss. We're still working on it but I don't really feel challenged by it. Basically just waiting on the rest of the raid to catch up on it at this point. Hell, not falling asleeo is the hardest part of P2.

[Deleted]

Frankly, Odyn is a perfectly fine fight and it needs more like it. There are no difficult mechanics in the fight at all, it's just executing the simple mechanics over a long period of time. It'll be boring if all fights are like this, but generally speaking the really hard fights in WoW so far were the ones that lasted over a longer period of time and get progressively more chaotic as time passes. We killed it in 25 pulls, most of the raid had 2 legendaries, I believe less than half had 35 traits.

Not sure about actual fight lengths, but I remember Mimiron hardmode as being a pretty long fight (with fire to make it harder), or the Lich King. If you like extremes, try Kael'Thas before the large nerfs. I think this fight could take upwards of 20 minutes!

[Summer]

Yeah well...

In general I like ToV, it's a nice little holiday raid, the bosses are good and everything.

But can't help getting a bit depressed with the experience so far on mythic Odyn. we're a casual mythic guild, killed Xavius just before ToV came out and have focused on getting EN on farm and gearing these couple past resets. Now it's time to focus on Odyn though and it's just... no fun whatsoever. For a first boss we're just not getting anywhere, our dps is enough to kill the adds but the boss HP isn't moving, the fight takes so long and there's plenty of time to lose focus for a moment and get comboed in no time. If this was an end boss ok, I'd be fine with it but as it is I have raiders whispering me telling me they pretty much hate ToV and would prefer to be sat for prog until NH and can't say I blame them; the thought of spending 2/3 of our raid time for the next couple of weeks wiping on this boss is just depressing as hell.

I'm not against hard bosses but this seems OTT; on the Eye or Cenarius we always felt we were progressing and it was fun, this is mostly just meh and there's nothing else to do for a long time.

[Meiffert]

We had like half the attempts on mythic cenarius which we are able to beat relatively easily with the burn strat.

we have no splitruns and still managed to clear EN somewhere between world 60 and 85, we didnt outgear shit.

I'm sorry, but are you saying you were in world top 85 while killing it with the burn strat? If you did, that's some impressive dps.
That being said, how can you struggle on Odyn, which was killed by 243 guilds (at the time of your post) when you are easily top 100?

Global, 243 Guilds have killed Mythic Odyn since ToV mythic release almost 2 weeks ago. If you compare this to nearly any other Raid-tier, this is an extremely low number.

ToV only has 3 bosses and it is missing the 1-2 "introduction free loot" bosses that are typical in most instances.
It is also tuned higher than EN (as it is supposed to be part of the Nighthold as can be determined by the feats of strengths).

With that in mind, Odyn and Guarm aren't really that hard.
It took us exactly 30 attempts to kill Odyn. A lot more than typical first boss encounter for sure, but also nowhere near the really hard bosses.
(Il'gynoth took us ~50 and Cenarius ~100 - those are part of the very easy EN, still took more attempts.)

One thing that I can agree on is that the fight is a bit too long, mostly because of phase 2, but it is also quite fun in my opinion.

[Deleted]

Am i wrong assuming that Mythic raiding wasn't created for everyone? - I personally don't mind having a few bosses in the game i know i'll never kill. I'm clearing HC on a weekly basis and happy with that! Hard content is what this game needs, problem is that not everyone should expect to clear it

[Marrilaife]

Now it's time to focus on Odyn though and it's just... no fun whatsoever. For a first boss we're just not getting anywhere, our dps is enough to kill the adds but the boss HP isn't moving, the fight takes so long and there's plenty of time to lose focus for a moment and get comboed in no time. If this was an end boss ok, I'd be fine with it but as it is I have raiders whispering me telling me they pretty much hate ToV and would prefer to be sat for prog until NH and can't say I blame them; the thought of spending 2/3 of our raid time for the next couple of weeks wiping on this boss is just depressing as hell.

You can always decide you'll wait until your raid gets 35+ traits and more gear before trying it again, but yeah, Odyn is another of these fights where "oh, your raid comp has 8 melee? well fuck you."

It's different when people just need to avoid mechanics and learn the encounter, and different when your raid leader says "if only we had another warlock and shadow priest this would look so much different..."

That's a bigger problem and it's something that is going on for years. Raid encounter designers constantly favour designs where having ranged (like for example multidotters / destro locks with havoc on Odyn) helps a lot, while class designers just keep adding melee specs into the game (hey survival hunter, if you're played anywhere), and then we get threads like "30% of all dps used in TOV were hunters and mages!" Well duh... And when you're random middle of the pack guild same as hundreds of others that are desperately trying to recruit "range dps", well you're screwed. The glut for competent range dps is way too high, at the expense of every other role. Many, many mythic guilds are dealing with the shortage, situation of too many melee or having ranged on average less skilled than the melee because that's what they have to settle for.

Was there ever a fight where stacking melee was a thing in the same manner as stacking hunters / shadow priests / mages on helya mythic? Or hunters / boomkins on Blackhand mythic back in the day?

So generally it becomes a fight not against the learning curve (we're failing on mechanics, we need to learn them better) but against the roster (we don't have enough of x class / role, we're screwed).

[antelope591]

Ummm did OP watch a mythic Helya vid yet? No chance more than 100 guilds kill that boss before nighthold lol....maybe not even 50 in its current form. Blizz can definitely make hard bosses still -_-

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6 - Nobody is entitled to kill anything, but progresison implies pratice, wich in turns means you keep trying and improving. When bosses are realy hard you die a lot and need a lot of pratice. Method probably wiped over 200, maybe over 300 times in those 2 days. I rember my mythic (heroic back them I think) Lei Shen kill, it took my guild 230 tries, Paragon took around 250 tries to kill the boss, so basicaly the same, the only difference was, Paragon wiped those 250 times in about 3 days, my guild took over 15 days of raids to get to that same amount of wipe. One thing ppl almost always forget to factor in is that the top guilds raid so much during progressiong they pull the bosses more than the average middle of the pack mythic guild do on the durationg of the entire tier sometimes.

Although I agree with the majority of your points I have to address this...people always think because it took them as many tries as Paragon or Method they are just as good, but simply don't play enough. What you miss is that you're coming in with the strat already in your hand and with far more optimal gear`even considering the split runs these guilds do. Consider for example that Method kill mythic Arch without any legendary rings which are an insane dps gain. Its quite naive to think that your guild is just as good or close to Method because you're killing it in the same amount of pulls basically. The fact is that the majority of guilds hit a wall in a tier that they can only overcome with gear, which currently doesn't exist. The problem with ToV is that the wall is the first boss and it doesn't get easier from there.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

It's slightly overtuned in the way that it completely shits over certain specs and just about all melee, to reach dps requirements you'll struggle to bring more than 3-4 melee (obviously countered by ilvl and other "class stacking").

My guild is now "done" with the damage requirements and we're running 3 melee (Shaman, Rogue, Warrior). However we got 3 hunters, 3 locks, 1 SP and 3 mages that can do okay 2-3 target dps in P2 which is they key to the encounter.

We wiped a couple times sub 20% (boss dies on 10%) and he'll be defeated soon, by far this is the most melee unfriendly encounter in a while- it's Blackhand Mythic territory on a scale of complete BS.

[shaunika123]

It's slightly overtuned in the way that it completely shits over certain specs and just about all melee, to reach dps requirements you'll struggle to bring more than 3-4 melee (obviously countered by ilvl and other "class stacking").

My guild is now "done" with the damage requirements and we're running 3 melee (Shaman, Rogue, Warrior). However we got 3 hunters, 3 locks, 1 SP and 3 mages that can do okay 2-3 target dps in P2 which is they key to the encounter.

We wiped a couple times sub 20% (boss dies on 10%) and he'll be defeated soon, by far this is the most melee unfriendly encounter in a while- it's Blackhand Mythic territory on a scale of complete BS.

if you think odyn is melee unfriendly wait till you get to helya

[Marrilaife]

if you think odyn is melee unfriendly wait till you get to helya

That's generally the problem with the raid encounter design and its devs. Since the days I started raiding in wotlk there were always those moments I would think or my guild would say "this fight would be easier if we brought more ranged". But I can't remember any fight where the opposite would be true "this fight would be easier if we brought more melee". It just never happens.

Yet the only thing we're getting is more melee specs into the game. UH / Frost DK, WW Monk, Havoc DH and Surv Hunter. New ranged specs implemented into the game? Zero. It affects guild recruitment and rosters because you can never get enough ranged to have optimal setup unless you're top guild, applicants swarm you so you can cherry pick and everyone plays 5-6 alts for splitruns and picks the fotm one for the fight anyway.

In an average guild you always end up with too many melee or a few ranged that are basically warm bodies filling the roster up to 20+. That is always gonna hurt you on a fight where you need ranged, you need everyone pulling their weight and you need everyone with good awareness. And you know most non-top guilds always have few of "these guys" who kinda can do dps but lack awareness or can't handle special tasks that aren't "pew pew". The reason "these guys" can't be pruned from the roster is 20 man mythic requirement and ranged > melee preference by encounter designers. I've seen so many mages, warlocks and hunters that were in way higher guilds than they deserved just for the reason of being range dps.

I really don't understand the reason of adding more melee classes to the game and no ranged when raid encounter design never changes and always favours ranged, and when it doesn't, it's just neutral, doesn't favour either.

Helya and Blackhand mythic are 2 examples where top guilds heavily class stacked and those classes were specific ranged dps.

[DakonBlackblade]

Ummm did OP watch a mythic Helya vid yet? No chance more than 100 guilds kill that boss before nighthold lol....maybe not even 50 in its current form. Blizz can definitely make hard bosses still -_-

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Although I agree with the majority of your points I have to address this...people always think because it took them as many tries as Paragon or Method they are just as good, but simply don't play enough. What you miss is that you're coming in with the strat already in your hand and with far more optimal gear`even considering the split runs these guilds do. Consider for example that Method kill mythic Arch without any legendary rings which are an insane dps gain. Its quite naive to think that your guild is just as good or close to Method because you're killing it in the same amount of pulls basically. The fact is that the majority of guilds hit a wall in a tier that they can only overcome with gear, which currently doesn't exist. The problem with ToV is that the wall is the first boss and it doesn't get easier from there.

I wasnt implying that, I just meant that top guilds pull bosses throngs of times as well, everyone needs pratice, even the best, and repetition is the way to pratice.

[Deleted]

I like the difficulty of the encounter, but in it's current state, P2 just takes way too long imo.
A suggestion would be to make him phase on 70%, and end the fight on 15% rather than 10%.
This would leave P1 and P3 unchanged but fix the (imo) repetetive P2.

[Aggrophobic]

I like the difficulty of the encounter, but in it's current state, P2 just takes way too long imo.
A suggestion would be to make him phase on 70%, and end the fight on 15% rather than 10%.
This would leave P1 and P3 unchanged but fix the (imo) repetetive P2.

I agree with this.
Ion said they learned from Maidens in BRF, that long fights are usually not fun for the players. The Odyn fight is too long.

[KaPe]

I agree with this.
Ion said they learned from Maidens in BRF, that long fights are usually not fun for the players. The Odyn fight is too long.

Maybe they changed their mind. They turned Il'gynoth into 9 minutes fight with pretty much no option of shortening it, which would certainly point to that. At least with Odyn, gear can directly translate into fight length... even if people will probably abandon it for Nighthold by the time it's significantly shorter.

[Aggrophobic]

Maybe they changed their mind. They turned Il'gynoth into 9 minutes fight with pretty much no option of shortening it, which would certainly point to that. At least with Odyn, gear can directly translate into fight length... even if people will probably abandon it for Nighthold by the time it's significantly shorter.

Seeing as the raid design so far in Legion has been pretty poor overall, maybe they should try and learn from past mistakes.
Not that they'll ever do that though, it's Blizzard after all.

[Deja Thoris]

It's probably a bit too hard and its probably a lot too long. (Something I've rarely heard by gf say)

At present theres only 19 public logs of kills with 881-883 gear. All of the other kills are higher ilevels so in effect its only being killed by guilds that have had 7/7M for a good while.

I'm not even excited to try it, I have to be honest. It looks long and tedious and quite frankly these attrition fights where you lose 1/2 people 6 minutes in and then slowly wither away as you fall behind on mini boss or add dps checks can go and fuck themselves.