[Balance] Legion Discussion

[huth]

No one is advocating for higher initial damage but the same time to ramp.

Which is utterly irrelevant to the point that higher initial damage has no impact on ramp up time.

[Lucrece]

So.... yeah. The basic moonkin rotation doesn't have much room to separate the good from the great. Typically, it's better to listen the the great players for this exact reason -- you just need to play smarter. (This isn't anything personal, just an observation and first-hand experience arguing with developers on fundamental issues.)

Also, it's so much the definition, but what would be a better solution. Lappee wants higher initial damage, I want faster DOT application. We both end up at our top-end damage are similar times. My ideas work for 10sec pulls, his idea works for 6sec pulls. My idea makes us very strong on sustained AoE, his idea keeps us in the same spot.

It's very, very, very complex. You have a few viable solutions, it's just a matter of discussing the pros and cons of each. Then trying to persuade very, very stubborn developers is the next step, and it's almost never successful from our POV.

It's not even unique. Go to warlock forums, Bacon and Not, the top 10 parsed warlock players, have to tell people that warlock is not terrible.

Both druid and warlock suffer from the same issues, overpruning with a heavy reliance on talents to fulfill an aoe niche in a format such as mythic+ where you cannot swap talents unlike raids, which screws over both classes because you either choose to not suck at single target or to not suck at aoe via talents.

Both classes also suffer from significant ramp up time on all their specs. The difference is feral druid really pays off for that ramp up, whereas the results of moonkin ramp up are middling (same scenario as rain of fire for warlock, build up 3 shards and sacrifice havoc chaosbolt on priority targets for an aoe that does fairly pedestrian damage).

I feel if mythic+ allowed talent swaps (which makes sense, why should alchemy consumables be favored but not inscription consumables?), people would feel a lot better.

We do weekly +12's with moonkin, ele shaman, and my warlock in our comps. The classes work, but they seem so constrained by the inability to swap talents when their kit is so talent dependent.

[Alame]

Which is utterly irrelevant to the point that higher initial damage has no impact on ramp up time.

You guys are arguing semantics.

Increasing initial damages doesn't change the ramp-up time but does front-load some damage and make the pre-optimal damage output better. Either way you're addressing the same issue, just in different ways.

I'd still like to see Stellar Drift drop the empowerment effect from Starfall, feeding that damage back into Starfall itself. Then your opening of Moon -> Starfall has significantly shorter ramp time (to hit ~80% of total output) and you're applying DoTs later in the initial sequence because they're not Starfall's primary throughput tool anymore.

You could also re-purpose Astral Communion to make your next Moon spell instant & off the GCD, but this would be broken as all hell in PvP.

You could scrap the embarrassingly bad "Empowerment" artifact trait, replacing it with a trait that lets you retain 10/20/30 AsP while out of combat, but this just delays the problem until we leave our artifacts behind.

Regardless of how you address the problem, the new legendary isn't going to fix it - and it's another boring passive enhancement with no interaction in the kit.

As for the disconnect between Elites and Averages - not sure where I fall on that spectrum, lower end of elites I'd assume - both sides of the equation are valid. Averages tend to be over-eager to attribute failures to tuning, elites tend to be over-eager to attribute it to something else (gear, play, whatever) and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. Talking specifically about Balance - many of the issues we're seeing were brought up numerous times during development by "average" players and those players were assured by the elites they wouldn't be an issue - and here we are talking about them as issues. We're a small community and our true elites are few, so while their opinions certainly carry more wait than Joe from down the street, personal bias is a factor.

[Kyanion]

As for the disconnect between Elites and Averages - not sure where I fall on that spectrum, lower end of elites I'd assume - both sides of the equation are valid. Averages tend to be over-eager to attribute failures to tuning, elites tend to be over-eager to attribute it to something else (gear, play, whatever) and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. Talking specifically about Balance - many of the issues we're seeing were brought up numerous times during development by "average" players and those players were assured by the elites they wouldn't be an issue - and here we are talking about them as issues. We're a small community and our true elites are few, so while their opinions certainly carry more wait than Joe from down the street, personal bias is a factor.

Yup I remember many of these very issues coming up during the beta discussions and yet here we are. Beta M+ runs let us know how we were going to end up and that is what happened. I don't think we're too far off from being really solid in groups so I'm curious what they are going to do.

[wing5wong]

Our peak AoE without the wrist is Moonfire and Starfire on every mob, with Starfall running and then casting Lunar Strike for cleave. Whether we get there by starting with 60 ASP and can immediately Starfall or immediately cast Starfall after applying our DoTs to mobs rather than generating enough AP for it first, thus lessening the time we take generating AP for the first Starfall and reach peak AoE, or we have a spell/talent that automatically applies Moonfire to all targets in an AoE, we are in both instances shortening our ramp up time to our peak AoE in different ways.

Some people, in some misguided attempt at internet machismo or contrarianism keep trying to argue that that is in fact not what we actually want, instead of just realizing the Moonkin community all ultimately wants the same thing.

Starting with 60ASP affects the first pull of the instance. I dont think this is a great solution.

[Lucrece]

Starting with 60ASP affects the first pull of the instance. I dont think this is a great solution.

I mean, look at warlock bump from 1 soul shard to 3. The regen rate out of combat is so low anyways, every pull you start with soul gems depleted. t virtually did very little; it was like a 700 dps gain.

I always thought starfall needed to go down in cost to 40 asp baseline and it only boosts the damage of sunfire ticks by a larger percentage so you don't need to moonfire a bunch of mobs.

[Madus]

Dont worry guys next expansion will fix it

[boz0]

You guys are arguing semantics.

Increasing initial damages doesn't change the ramp-up time but does front-load some damage and make the pre-optimal damage output better. Either way you're addressing the same issue, just in different ways.

Amen. I'm more interested in fixing the problem than arguing about semantics.

[Tarm]

I am occasionally running into an issue with the Emerald Dreamcatcher when cycling SS LS SS SW SW.

If I am at low AP (<20) when I begin to cast my second SW (which would give me enough AP to push me over 20), I am sometimes unable to get off the Starsurge before the Dreamcatcher buff falls off.

I am usually just above 31% haste and 10-30 ms ping. I never have any trouble casting SS SW SW SS when I have higher AP. It seems like I am unable to queue up the Starsurge during the SW cast since I have less than 20 AP. I guess the solution would be to just get higher haste until it is not a problem.

Has anyone else with the Dreamcatcher noticed (or not noticed) this issue? What is your haste and ping?

[Hellshout]

First time as a balance in higher M+(usually tanking, but fk necrotic). True the other guys knew their stuff so it went very smooth. I was rather pleased of how the chicken performed. I know we don't bring much, but a good typhoon to help the tank can mean the world.

On a DPS note. I have enough haste to cast emp LS between SS with ED. Now I did some dummy testing and with my current haste, I have lik 0.4 sec left from ED. If I lose like 800 haste from a trinket and add 1000 versa and more intellect, I get like 0.2 sec left.
Should I go for versa or stick to haste?

[xtramuscle]

First time as a balance in higher M+(usually tanking, but fk necrotic). True the other guys knew their stuff so it went very smooth. I was rather pleased of how the chicken performed. I know we don't bring much, but a good typhoon to help the tank can mean the world.

On a DPS note. I have enough haste to cast emp LS between SS with ED. Now I did some dummy testing and with my current haste, I have lik 0.4 sec left from ED. If I lose like 800 haste from a trinket and add 1000 versa and more intellect, I get like 0.2 sec left.
Should I go for versa or stick to haste?

Guardian is probably the best suited tank for necrotic #lolwhatphysicaldamage

[huth]

They're rather bad at dropping stacks in-fight, though. Only so far you can go when you're immune to healing and have a DoT ticking away.

I am occasionally running into an issue with the Emerald Dreamcatcher when cycling SS LS SS SW SW.

If I am at low AP (<20) when I begin to cast my second SW (which would give me enough AP to push me over 20), I am sometimes unable to get off the Starsurge before the Dreamcatcher buff falls off.

I am usually just above 31% haste and 10-30 ms ping. I never have any trouble casting SS SW SW SS when I have higher AP. It seems like I am unable to queue up the Starsurge during the SW cast since I have less than 20 AP. I guess the solution would be to just get higher haste until it is not a problem.

Has anyone else with the Dreamcatcher noticed (or not noticed) this issue? What is your haste and ping?

It's simple, your spell doesn't get queued until you actually have the resources, which introduces a miniscule but noticeable delay that causes you to lose the buff. Nothing to be done about it, really. Just treat it as the natural end of your ED phase.

[Hellshout]

They're rather bad at dropping stacks in-fight, though. Only so far you can go when you're immune to healing and have a DoT ticking away.


It's simple, your spell doesn't get queued until you actually have the resources, which introduces a miniscule but noticeable delay that causes you to lose the buff. Nothing to be done about it, really. Just treat it as the natural end of your ED phase.

Exactly. I saw a pala he was running like crazy, having time to /dance. I was moving like a fat bear. Well the dps didn't help either, had no idea what necrotic is... I can't run the whole instance with the pack.
Any insights on my balance dilemma?

[Mursy]

I am occasionally running into an issue with the Emerald Dreamcatcher when cycling SS LS SS SW SW.

If I am at low AP (<20) when I begin to cast my second SW (which would give me enough AP to push me over 20), I am sometimes unable to get off the Starsurge before the Dreamcatcher buff falls off.

I am usually just above 31% haste and 10-30 ms ping. I never have any trouble casting SS SW SW SS when I have higher AP. It seems like I am unable to queue up the Starsurge during the SW cast since I have less than 20 AP. I guess the solution would be to just get higher haste until it is not a problem.

Has anyone else with the Dreamcatcher noticed (or not noticed) this issue? What is your haste and ping?

I have this same problem no clue why it happens. My haste is 33% and my ping is 93.

[Frostyfire14]

First time as a balance in higher M+(usually tanking, but fk necrotic). True the other guys knew their stuff so it went very smooth. I was rather pleased of how the chicken performed. I know we don't bring much, but a good typhoon to help the tank can mean the world.

On a DPS note. I have enough haste to cast emp LS between SS with ED. Now I did some dummy testing and with my current haste, I have lik 0.4 sec left from ED. If I lose like 800 haste from a trinket and add 1000 versa and more intellect, I get like 0.2 sec left.
Should I go for versa or stick to haste?

I think the, "We don't bring much to mythic+" statements are a little outdated now.

Innervate can help a healer tremendously on long boss fights that have the tyrannical modifier.

Battle Rez. Nough' said.

Solar Beam has saved my tank countless times.

Typhoon/Bash extremely helpful in almost any situation.

Guardian Affinity to taunt a boss away from the tank with high necrotic stacks. Or to tank a boss if a tank dies during the end of a fight. Many scenarios.

Blink for important mechanics.

Armor. A caster with a shit ton of armor helps in some situations/fights.

Large AoE room coverage with dots and Starfall cleaving.

Regrowth. Self healing or tossing a heal out to someone in need. Always welcome for progression in mythic+.

One thing I did wish we had still was Stampeding Roar. I think both Druid DPS specializations should have this. But that probably won't happen.

[Tyze]

Force of Nature is extremely useful in mythic + aswell

[Hellshout]

I think the, "We don't bring much to mythic+" statements are a little outdated now.

Innervate can help a healer tremendously on long boss fights that have the tyrannical modifier.

Battle Rez. Nough' said.

Solar Beam has saved my tank countless times.

Typhoon/Bash extremely helpful in almost any situation.

Guardian Affinity to taunt a boss away from the tank with high necrotic stacks. Or to tank a boss if a tank dies during the end of a fight. Many scenarios.

Blink for important mechanics.

Armor. A caster with a shit ton of armor helps in some situations/fights.

Large AoE room coverage with dots and Starfall cleaving.

Regrowth. Self healing or tossing a heal out to someone in need. Always welcome for progression in mythic+.

One thing I did wish we had still was Stampeding Roar. I think both Druid DPS specializations should have this. But that probably won't happen.

Yes, I agree with everything you said. I was very concise with it. I did do an Innervate on the healer one a rough pack and on Cordana +5, the tank got kicked down and I remembered I have bear form, so BAM, tanked her from 20% and we killed her. Was pretty nice.
The spec is not OP, no doubt and if everyone is doing their job properly, we don't need to bring much, because it's not needed, but when shit hits the fan, damn we are nice. I bet there are spells I don't even have on my bars that can help in need.
Very nice spec overall, full of surprises.

edit: yes, stampeding roar would be so awesome to have. Huge benefits.

[huth]

I always think it's funny when somebody says you don't plan to mess up. Well of course not, it wouldn't be a mess up if it was intentional.


My guild's bear tank loves the three stooges during Necrotic weeks.

[Ifeanychukwu]

So I've just read through some of the changes in the updated PTR build. Some pretty interesting looking changes, I think I might actually end up jumping on the PTR to try some of it out, Fury of Elune in particular... Am I reading that shit right or does it says 40 YARD RANGE?! Surely that can't be right can it? That sounds like it'd be a nightmare in confined spaces like HoV, I'd think something like 20 yards would be a bit much even. Otherwise, the changes to Soul of the Forest and Stellar Drift look pretty interesting as well.

[Bawk]

So I've just read through some of the changes in the updated PTR build. Some pretty interesting looking changes, I think I might actually end up jumping on the PTR to try some of it out, Fury of Elune in particular... Am I reading that shit right or does it says 40 YARD RANGE?! Surely that can't be right can it? That sounds like it'd be a nightmare in confined spaces like HoV, I'd think something like 20 yards would be a bit much even. Otherwise, the changes to Soul of the Forest and Stellar Drift look pretty interesting as well.

It just means you can set it down from 40 yds away. The spell itself has a very small radius.