7.1.5: Fire completely wrecked

[Deleted]

imgur.com/a/R95g2
This perfectly sums ups the situation. Guess blizzard balancing is based around trolls in this thread / trade chat / guild chat.

[Deleted]

Yes, surrealistic is just the word to describe this discussion. Why do you think that posts on MMO-Champion will have any effect on the final outcome? Blizzard has all the data. They know exactly when and how Fire has been played. Do you think you can convince them by posting logs here?

Posting the truth, the logs, is a proof for those "Fire is strong" or "fire its ok spec" users. Not for blizzard. A lot of nonsense comments here.

And funny to read "Blizzard has all data".

I think im done with this. Logs & data > opinions.

[Sunlighthell]

Logs have been provided maniachally all over this thread. I'll take Mush for easier reference, since it's only in the last page.

Provided that there are 9 caster specs in the game:

Nyth - Demo locks beat fire (2nd Place)
Ilg - shadow, afflic and destro beat fire (4th Place)
Ren - fire wins (1st Place)
Ursoc - Shadow and demo beat fire (3d Place)
Dragons - Afflic beats fire (2nd Place)
Cenarius - Afflic, shadow, demo, destro, balance all beat fire (6th Place)
Xavius - Shadow and afflic beat fire (3d Place)

Odyn - Shadow, afflic, demo, destro, balance, all beat fire (6th Place)
Guarm - shadow, afflic, demo, balance all beat fire (5th Place)
Helya - Shadow beats fire (2nd Place)

That indicates that Fire IS a strong spec, able to shine (podium) on 6 raid fights out of a total of 10 in the current tier and still "middle of the pack" (expression we hear so much these days) on those that remain, without ever even touching the last 3 positions (again, out of 9).

And then you compare parses for the SAME item lvl and discover that 860 fire foes damage of 880 affliction. And what we're talking about 15k+ parses for fire and 200 parses of affliction?

[Deleted]

2 weeks of ptr still no numbers tuning

Numbers tuning always happens in the last two weeks of PTR, not during the first two weeks.

[Deleted]

I boosted my alt mage to level 100. I enter class hall. All I see is fire, fire and some more fire. This alone tells that something is wrong. Fire is too strong. Why else would everyone be fire? Something needs to change. Don't be so spoiled. I think these changes are good.

[D3athsting]

Numbers tuning always happens in the last two weeks of PTR, not during the first two weeks.

Then after 2 weeks on live they push hotfixes with stuff like "fireball damage increased by 50%" because spec is beyond broken

[nerfproof]

they are giving arcane mages a talent where AM can be channeled while moving.

[Orrin]

I boosted my alt mage to level 100. I enter class hall. All I see is fire, fire and some more fire. This alone tells that something is wrong. Fire is too strong. Why else would everyone be fire? Something needs to change. Don't be so spoiled. I think these changes are good.

One more comment from a person who knows nothing except for community myth. Read previous pages, there's plenty of explanation of why you're wrong.

"I became a Mage expert by coming into Order Hall and seeing fireballs" is not a good talking point

[Deleted]

And then you compare parses for the SAME item lvl and discover that 860 fire foes damage of 880 affliction. And what we're talking about 15k+ parses for fire and 200 parses of affliction?

¿?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=90&bracket=18
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=90&bracket=18
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=90&bracket=18

Should i continue ? Do you realize that most of fire's damage comes from their crit stat and that their scaling is pretty bad, don't you ?

[D3athsting]

they are giving arcane mages a talent where AM can be channeled while moving.

Iirc it was introduced as a tier bonus back in cata but was changed before going live...

[Wenoxar]

I boosted my alt mage to level 100. I enter class hall. All I see is fire, fire and some more fire. This alone tells that something is wrong. Fire is too strong. Why else would everyone be fire? Something needs to change. Don't be so spoiled. I think these changes are good.

Let me enlight you, baby mage. You see fire everywhere because currently fire is the only overall PvE viable spec in the game. And while fire is the only viable spec, it is still average or below average spec without legendary wrists.

You are one of those that look at opener and be like "wooow 1,5mln opener wow fire op must nerf" right?

[Gungnir]

Let me enlight you, baby mage. You see fire everywhere because currently fire is the only overall PvE viable spec in the game. And while fire is the only viable spec, it is still average or below average spec without legendary wrists.

You are one of those that look at opener and be like "wooow 1,5mln opener wow fire op must nerf" right?

I've always loved fire and I've played a mage since I started this journey back in early 2005.
But even I'm getting a bit alarmed at the fact that, sure, fire isn't "strong" regarding the numbers it puts out.. but rather the fact that as you said, it's overall an insanely well rounded jack-of-all-trades.

It's at the point of why would you even be frost, which hasn't really got any AoE to speak of.. or arcane, which can do most of what fire can, but with just less effectiveness.

I think mechanically fire is in too strong of a position and that Blizzard has basically painted themselves into a corner with this one. They can't numerically balance fire to counter the fact that they've got tools for every occasion and they can't mechanically change them without an uproar.
It saddens me a bit because I've always been a fan of specs having strengths and weaknesses.. except now we've got a select few specs with little to no mechanical weakness.

[Zenfoldor]

I boosted my alt mage to level 100. I enter class hall. All I see is fire, fire and some more fire. This alone tells that something is wrong. Fire is too strong. Why else would everyone be fire? Something needs to change. Don't be so spoiled. I think these changes are good.

So you are basing your belief that we need a nerf based on your observation of the type of Mages you anecdotally see in the mage class hall?

That would imply that the more concentrated a class is into one spec relates to the quality of that spec on the live game, and not the state of the game when those characters were rolled or the perception of a spec within the class.

Obviously ignorant.

[JIMM-]

I boosted my alt mage to level 100. I enter class hall. All I see is fire, fire and some more fire. This alone tells that something is wrong. Fire is too strong. Why else would everyone be fire? Something needs to change. Don't be so spoiled. I think these changes are good.

100% not a mage player n just some random poster, u dont even know how things boiled down to 99% mages spec into fire. If you followed the timeline how things developed, u would understand.

Yeah, something went horribly wrong at the end of WOD and the beginning of legion launch , everyone n their mom knew arcane n frost are severely undertuned after the Legion pre patch in Hellfire Citadel, blizz knowing the situation,ignored everything and did NO number tunings for frost and arcane, and proceed to release Legion.

What did you expect to happen ? Mages to stick around frost and arcane hoping they will be noticed that they are way too weak and will be buffed ?
Of course not, everyone is just gonna spec Fire and be useful. Blizz even promised they will not nerf specs and all of us fire mages took their word (outlaw rogues too, lol, they got betrayed real hard by blizz). And fire mages is now on the chopping block since they are already done with nerfing outlaw into oblivion.

Why be a burden to every dungeon / raid runs when u can be an asset ? No one wants to get benched for raids or gets booted from dungeon ( remember the status of warlocks at the beginning of legion ? frost mage delivers worse numbers than them)

Notice how long it took them to finally tune frost and arcane spec ? After the whole mythic emerald nightmare race is over.

This is exactly why "everyone is fire" . Because they did not have a choice at the very beginning.

P.S. Now that everyone have invested all their time n effort into felo'melorn n getting fire spec legendaries, switching spec is even more difficult.

"dont be so spoiled" your ass , these nerfs are horrible and is just an act to force mages to go to other 2 specs that are currently in an extremely chaotic state no one even knows whether they are good or bad and they dont even have proper playstyle(s) yet. Theres random shit thats absolutely hilarious and ignores all the spec intended playstyle and counter logic shenanigans like glacial spike frostbolt spam ignore ice lance build, the icy vein build /w all sorts of variation and random blizzard spam every 6s in the rotation, arcane barrage-less playstyle, cancerous nether tempest quickening spam , etc . Obviously, Blizz doesnt even know what they are doing with these 2 specs and they have failed to develop a dps rotation for these 2 specs.


Blizz forced all mages into this fire spec pigeon hole in the very beginning n now they are nuking the hole. Leaving us no way out.

"Fire is too strong" my ass. Go educate yourself before posting shit. pro tip: read the whole post.

[Fappy]

I've always loved fire and I've played a mage since I started this journey back in early 2005.
But even I'm getting a bit alarmed at the fact that, sure, fire isn't "strong" regarding the numbers it puts out.. but rather the fact that as you said, it's overall an insanely well rounded jack-of-all-trades.

It's at the point of why would you even be frost, which hasn't really got any AoE to speak of.. or arcane, which can do most of what fire can, but with just less effectiveness.

I think mechanically fire is in too strong of a position and that Blizzard has basically painted themselves into a corner with this one. They can't numerically balance fire to counter the fact that they've got tools for every occasion and they can't mechanically change them without an uproar.
It saddens me a bit because I've always been a fan of specs having strengths and weaknesses.. except now we've got a select few specs with little to no mechanical weakness.

I think M+ really threw a wrench into this design philosophy. It provides a vital role in PvE gearing at the moment, and necessitates high aoe burst. Many specs (mostly ranged) fall behind in this category and are getting shafted. Considering M+ is not only an important gear source, but also its very own endgame, this is an enormous issue.

Back when PvE was balanced around raids alone, Blizzard had more flexibility with strengths and weaknesses because they could design raid encounters to reward or punish certain play styles/specs. With M+ however, if you don't have high aoe burst (or healing/tank offspec) you will not find much success. We're in a situation where either, (A) M+ needs to be redesigned completely, or (B) every DPS spec needs to be capable of doing relevant damage in 5-man content.

[netherflame]

2 weeks of ptr still no numbers tuning

Nobody got any real number tuning, keep your handkerchief in your pocket because you really shouldn't have any tears to wipe up yet. The reality is fire is really good at AOE, it shouldn't be a top single target spec. I say the same thing about my elemental shaman, its a phenomenal aoe spec so it should have some shortcomings with single target.

[Gungnir]

I think M+ really threw a wrench into this design philosophy. It provides a vital role in PvE gearing at the moment, and necessitates high aoe burst. Many specs (mostly ranged) fall behind in this category and are getting shafted. Considering M+ is not only an important gear source, but also its very own endgame, this is an enormous issue.

Back when PvE was balanced around raids alone, Blizzard had more flexibility with strengths and weaknesses because they could design raid encounters to reward or punish certain play styles/specs. With M+ however, if you don't have high aoe burst (or healing/tank offspec) you will not find much success. We're in a situation where either, (A) M+ needs to be redesigned completely, or (B) every DPS spec needs to be capable of doing relevant damage in 5-man content.

I think this is where the bulk of the issue lies, as you've pointed out.

The issue with this is where we can go from here. It's obvious that they can't remake the M+ system within reasonable time, if any change is to be made it will probably be until next expansion if the system will even be brought over.
That leaves us with either re-evaluating and changing/buffing almost all the range classes or remaking their AoE mechanically, which is a huge endeavour and unfortunately somewhat unlikely.

Thus the previous point I had with Blizzard painting themselves into a corner. They can't feasibly do anything regarding this sitution without angering a lot of people.
They can either bring down fire DPS to counteract the fact that they're mechanically very strong overall, which will contradict what they told us leading up to Legion or they can remake the mechanics regarding ignite spreading and Living Bomb to bring the spec more into line with the other ranged, which will lead to anger.

If they want to fix this without alienating a large part of mages, they'd probably have to go around and mechanically redesign most ranged classes.. but again, it seems very unlikely.


Regardless of what the end results may be, I don't think it'll be pretty.

[Deleted]

I boosted my alt mage to level 100. I enter class hall. All I see is fire, fire and some more fire. This alone tells that something is wrong. Fire is too strong. Why else would everyone be fire? Something needs to change. Don't be so spoiled. I think these changes are good.

Just because it's the best of our specs doesn't mean its imbalanced when compared to other classes

[Rumstein]

I find it interesting that they want to reduce crit gear weighting for Fire, yet they remove our flat crit chance and instead add 10% scaling to rating... which comes from gear. Doesn't this straight out make gear on crit 10% more valuable than before? I really am starting to think they Blizz has no idea what they are doing.

[Deleted]

I find it interesting that they want to reduce crit gear weighting for Fire, yet they remove our flat crit chance and instead add 10% scaling to rating... which comes from gear. Doesn't this straight out make gear on crit 10% more valuable than before? I really am starting to think they Blizz has no idea what they are doing.

Critical Mass Multiplies the critical strike chance of your Fireball, Pyroblast, and Scorch by 1.1. Mage - Fire Spec. Arcane, Frost: Your spells have a 15% increased chance to deal a critical strike. Fire: Your spells have a 15% increased chance to deal a critical strike. You gain 0% more of the Critical Strike stat from all sources. Mage - Fire Spec.

Typical mmo-c poster who can't read or understand a sentence yet keeps posting his opinions. Can you, like, gtfo?