7.1.5 Ptr Changes

[Baconeggcheese]

Seriously? You sound like a BS politician,

No, he sounds like most of the posters in this sub section when they talk about locks. Just giving them a taste I suppose.

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@Nebiroth99 frankly I think affliction could end up our best spec at that fight for no other reason besides the sheer volume of movement. There's just an obscene amount of forced movement on that fight on mythic, to the point where it really hampers the other specs.

That fight is pretty much the antithesis of locks. For as good as EN was to locks helya is as bad.

[Zzyzz]

You mean, like it was for like 8 1/2 years before the retarded backloaded mechanic was added to it for no particularly good reason?

Yes. Never underestimate blizz's ability to take a bad thing and make it worse.

[Lucrece]

Actually the first Mythic kills for ToV stacked Shadow Priests, particularly Helya. Which should have been a perfect place for affliction, right? No, because affliction's single target damage is so shit that they aren't worth taking for the brief windows where you can spam aoe and dot up the tentacles, not least because to do really good aoe affliction has to trash further it's already awfuly single target damage.

Congrats, you found a wild outlier, now how about we talk fire mage or hunter, and how often hunter/mage are stacked compared to a shadow priest. Because last time shadow priests were this over the top was in cata with Tarecgosa.

There's no wild conspiracy to make hybrids better.

Pure DPS classes will always be the optimal classes for the simple fact they've got a choice of 3 specs to fit different scenarios. Hybrids are stuck with 1, for DK/Warrior if you count those it's two.

You don't like affliction or it's underperforming? You got two other specs. Hybrids don't have that luxury if devs mess up with theirs.

You have a single target specialist, a cleave specialist, and an aoe+cleave hybrid specialist. What more can you ask for when some classes have specs that don't even perform above average in either of those, while all the warlocks specs perform above average in their respective niches?

The only scenario in which warlocks suffer is in mythic+ due to spec/talent swap restrictions, but balance druids suck as much if not worse, and feral druids only shine in Tyrannical weeks.

Warlocks are not worse off than hybrids. Pures always have options. Shadow priests won't when 7.1.5 arrives.

[Dwill]

Hybrids are not pures.

This is even less relevant in this expansion than its ever been considering legendaries, AP and relics. You can't just switch between spec as easily and hope to get similar results.

Its also not a matter of harder, its a matter of the average player not being able to play it at a decent level. For instance in t17 demo was completely dominant but it was considered more difficult to pull numbers out of than the other specs. Since every top end player was universally playing demo everyone else was also playing demo, and then severely under performing because they couldn't handle its kit. Legion aff's kit is more difficult than t17 demo, with significantly more limitations, and will re-create the problem if it becomes thee spec.

If you can play a spec to its maximum potential, your results shouldn't be limited by other people's inability to play said spec properly.

While Affliction might have its little complexity and limitations, it's by no mean WotLK's feral level of complexity so I don't think it would be too hard for people to actually adapt to it.

Yeah, for some reason any hybrid in Legion better than pure dps warlock.

This is so untrue, just stop spouting nonsense.

[Baconeggcheese]

Pure DPS classes will always be the optimal classes for the simple fact they've got a choice of 3 specs to fit different scenarios.

Though in fairness we don't really see that advantage this xpac unless you got hyper lucky with gear and spent a LOOOOOT of time nonstop grinding ap. Like I play destro on ST because my demo spec even with 28 points in the weapon and equivalent ilvl is still worse ST than my destro. And my aff weapon has all of 6k ap in it, and is 20 ilvls behind my destro wep, so not really an option either without significant effort for what will also likely be worse due to not having any berries for it.

The problem should minimize in the next couple months for most people when we cap out our knowledge and can get our 5% traits easy for each spec, but then you still need berries for each to make them real options to swap between if not just sindorei's.

We basically get to feel almost like hybrids do these days.

[Lucrece]

Legion affliction isn't even Legion feral (Jagged Wounds+Savage Roar+Lunar Inspiration+Blood Talons) level of complexity (which is worse than wotlk, in case people didn't notice savage roar got its duration halved and energy cost increased and unlike wod there's no glyph to help). It's fairly even with demonology (when demo needs to deal with mechanics while lining up TKC's).

I think all the specs are fairly enjoyable in their own right. Soul Effigy isn't even the holocaust people make it to be.

I'll play affliction any day over feral druid. Prescribing a feral druid with optimal DPS talents should cure anyone's qualms about warlocks feeling bad to play.

[Baconeggcheese]

This is even less relevant in this expansion than its ever been considering legendaries, AP and relics. You can't just switch between spec as easily and hope to get similar results.

Legendaries / ap / relics make what I'm talking about infinitely more relevant than previous xpacs because you can't easily swap specs. So if a player picks a spec they are incapable of pulling good numbers on they now have a massive undertaking to get a 2nd weapon caught up which is not something your average player who took 3 months to get his 2nd legendary for a particular spec and only just got his 3rd gold dragon is going to take well to.

It's a good way to get your players to quit out of sheer frustration. The very same kind of frustration you see in this very section with people who invested into aff already.

If you can play a spec to its maximum potential, your results shouldn't be limited by other people's inability to play said spec properly.

It's game design 101 that you don't make a spec "dominant" that also can't be played by a majority of people at a rudimentary level. There's no problem with the ceiling being a bit high and hard to reach, but the floor can't be too low. Afflictions floor is very low and needs significant change to bring it up.

While Affliction might have its little complexity and limitations, it's by no mean WotLK's feral level of complexity so I don't think it would be too hard for people to actually adapt to it.

Its absolutely more difficult to play than t17 demo, and yet somehow that was too difficult for the average lock. With both of them it isn't so much that they're hyper complex, they're just difficult to play. As simple as *maintain 3-4 dots with 100% up time* is conceptually, it can be very difficult for a player to manage practically. Especially once you throw multiple targets into the mix along side very low duration dots.

You see this kind of thing with spriest right now, and it's the reason they're getting such large changes. In that interview with celestalon and sloot celestalon talked about how at sloots level of play spriests are performing over the top, but at the average level its a completely different story. Spriest is not in any way shape or form a hyper complicated spec, but it can still be rather difficult for players to pull off to the point where they're overhauling the spec to bring the floor up.

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I'll play affliction any day over feral druid.

But the cat forms look so effin cool tho.

[Valkaneer]

Moonkin has virtually never been top. They were good to cheese mechanics for, but they've never consistently beaten mages/rogues/hunters. Feral has been a garbage single target spec that still loses to rogues among others since its inception.

Shut up. Quit whining about how OP hybrids are. Nobody stacks hybrids. Plenty stack mages and hunters.Plenty take rogues over feral druids.

LoL your delusional. Boomkin have been done very well as a whole for the last 3 xpacs. LoL this is to funny.

[Baconeggcheese]

LoL your delusional. Boomkin have been done very well as a whole for the last 3 xpacs. LoL this is to funny.

IIRC they were mostly irrelevant in mop, OP in t17, and then went back to being irrelevant.

They were never horrendous or anything, but they definitely weren't "top" the last 3 xpacs. Just a good spec.

[Dwill]

Legendaries / ap / relics make what I'm talking about infinitely more relevant than previous xpacs because you can't easily swap specs. So if a player picks a spec they are incapable of pulling good numbers on they now have a massive undertaking to get a 2nd weapon caught up which is not something your average player who took 3 months to get his 2nd legendary for a particular spec and only just got his 3rd gold dragon is going to take well to.

It's a good way to get your players to quit out of sheer frustration. The very same kind of frustration you see in this very section with people who invested into aff already.

You even said it yourself:

We basically get to feel almost like hybrids do these days.

So I don't see how the argument that hybrids are not pures is even relevant in this context.

It's game design 101 that you don't make a spec "dominant" that also can't be played by a majority of people at a rudimentary level. There's no problem with the ceiling being a bit high and hard to reach, but the floor can't be too low. Afflictions floor is very low and needs significant change to bring it up.

Now the question is what do you consider rudimentary ? Because for me, that would mean tossing all 3 dots on the target and channel, press Reap when the player deems it necessary which is a concept most people can understand already. It won't make them get into the 90+ percentile but it sure is rudimentary enough for them to get better.

Its absolutely more difficult to play than t17 demo, and yet somehow that was too difficult for the average lock. With both of them it isn't so much that they're hyper complex, they're just difficult to play. As simple as *maintain 3-4 dots with 100% up time* is conceptually, it can be very difficult for a player to manage practically. Especially once you throw multiple targets into the mix along side very low duration dots.

You see this kind of thing with spriest right now, and it's the reason they're getting such large changes. In that interview with celestalon and sloot celestalon talked about how at sloots level of play spriests are performing over the top, but at the average level its a completely different story. Spriest is not in any way shape or form a hyper complicated spec, but it can still be rather difficult for players to pull off to the point where they're overhauling the spec to bring the floor up.

Could Affliction's floor use a little boost ? Sure but Affliction's floor isn't as low as you're making it out to be and it shouldn't be holding the spec back due to possibility of people underperforming with it.

[Bullettime]

Hell I would even argue that a lot of Affliction's skill ceiling is from dealing with frustrating and annoying mechanics more than actual in depth hard to master gameplay like even Unholy has, despite so few buttons.

[Baconeggcheese]

So I don't see how the argument that hybrids are not pures is even relevant in this context.

A melee is not a ranged is not a tank is not a healer.

Whether feral or boomkin is more complex is completely moot if you are one or the other, because changing between them is not realistically an option. There is no point at which our boomkin would consider or realistically have the option to go feral. It is in no way a parallel to the way pures are handled.

Now the question is what do you consider rudimentary?

Just to pull a random number out of my ass, lets say somewhere between 80-90% of what the spec is capable of. Imo ideally an extremely well designed spec would be able to be picked up and played at around 90% of its potential performance and you'd have to gain some mastery over it and the encounter to max it out.

Destruction in mop / wod is a great example of this, the spec didn't punish you super hard for mistakes and so someone could pick it up and do well with it to the point of comfort and confidence in a small time frame. Then someone who wanted to be damned good at it could pull even more out of the spec and min-max.

Could Affliction's floor use a little boost ? Sure but Affliction's floor isn't as low as you're making it out to be and it shouldn't be holding the spec back due to possibility of people underperforming with it.

Afflictions numbers are perfectly fine for it to be competitive, the issue right out the gate is people *are* under performing with it. You see the same players in logs consistently pulling competitive numbers with the other specs as aff.

If anything is holding it back its its difficulty to play to pull those numbers and its mechanics. The specs a pure dot spec, which means it'll always be mechanically inferior to the other two specs. It requires that it be over tuned in order for it to be truly competitive, which is bad design and not something they should ever do.

[Dwill]

A melee is not a ranged is not a tank is not a healer.

Whether feral or boomkin is more complex is completely moot if you are one or the other, because changing between them is not realistically an option. There is no point at which our boomkin would consider or realistically have the option to go feral. It is in no way a parallel to the way pures are handled.

I see your point here and I agree with it.

Just to pull a random number out of my ass, lets say somewhere between 80-90% of what the spec is capable of. Imo ideally an extremely well designed spec would be able to be picked up and played at around 90% of its potential performance and you'd have to gain some mastery over it and the encounter to max it out.

Destruction in mop / wod is a great example of this, the spec didn't punish you super hard for mistakes and so someone could pick it up and do well with it to the point of comfort and confidence in a small time frame. Then someone who wanted to be damned good at it could pull even more out of the spec and min-max.

I agree with the part of your assessment that a good spec shouldn't punish you very hard for mistakes but I feel that if you can get (in my opinion) 80% of the spec down to a tee, then you've got the basic rudimentary down and (again, in my opinion) I feel like the current Affliction isn't really that far off from that.

Afflictions numbers are perfectly fine for it to be competitive, the issue right out the gate is people *are* under performing with it. You see the same players in logs consistently pulling competitive numbers with the other specs as aff.

If anything is holding it back its its difficulty to play to pull those numbers and its mechanics. The specs a pure dot spec, which means it'll always be mechanically inferior to the other two specs. It requires that it be over tuned in order for it to be truly competitive, which is bad design and not something they should ever do.

To be quite honest, I'm quite fine with the numbers that Affliction puts, as long as it's not pure single target and that's where my main grip with the spec is.

The thing is that a pure DoT spec does not need to be over tuned to be truly competitive, there are ways to fix (or at he very least, make less aggravating) these weaknesses.

[Deleted]

Welp, build is here, nothing to see yet again. Thanks Blizz

[Deleted]

ahahaha. ahahahaha.






everybody can see how much the warlock is loved

[Baconeggcheese]

What keeps getting me is the one blue said the changes would make sense last build, and they still don't make sense.

[Bullettime]

Well Affliction is about to be obnoxious to play. The change to ELT should definitely push it to the top in basically any situation.

A build using Writhe in Agony, Empowered Life Tap, Siphon Life, and Soul Effigy is going to be a fucking disaster to play while also dealing with multiple targets and encounter mechanics. Jesus fucking Christ Blizzard.

[TummyBoy]

Nothing really on the Demonology front now, but how are these Affliction changes? It looks like they're trying to handle ramp-up time on short lived mobs. Mechanically it may get more interesting to play at least.

[Bullettime]

Nothing really on the Demonology front now, but how are these Affliction changes? It looks like they're trying to handle ramp-up time on short lived mobs. Mechanically it may get more interesting to play at least.

It further rammed Soul Effigy down our throat and the new Malefic Grasp makes absolutely zero sense since we'll never be draining anymore.

The change to ELT has basically made Affliction a raw dot spammer in the most obnoxious way possible.

[App]

Watch out - 2% more damage for 5 seconds boys. Real game-changer for Destruction....

I swear a monkey is in charge of Warlock class design.