I like to raid - I do not like beeing forced to do other content to be viable

[PewPewArrowz]

Higher AK solves all your problems, I just got my 35th trait yesterday, with no overly playing M+, only 19 spent in other specialization but still, this character was pretty much abandoned for 3-4 weeks during Legion, completely not played other than logging every 5 days for the AK research.

[saeros]

ITT: I have only X hours to play but in order to do everything I need to play X+Y hours. Please cut out the Y hours of game play so I can be top dog again.

more like:
i enjoy only X, i have to do Y and Z all the time to do X at the level i enjoy. pls adjust the reward system so i'm not forced to do Y and i can enjoy the game again like we did for 10years.

[Averrix]

The price of being a mythic raider and wanting to be top min/max.

[Deleted]

It would take you literally two seconds to search my name to see if it's my character or not but here you go.

http://www.wowprogress.com/character/us/thrall/Hctaz

Ok, so your point is what again? You need those high ilvl trinkets? Your guild is 5/7 and average ilvl 883. My guild killed Xavius in average 870 gear.

[Teebone]

Topics like this are why we ended up with an expansion like WoD where there was nothing to do outside of raiding.

This can not be 'thised' enough.

[PewPewArrowz]

Ok, so your point is what again? You need those high ilvl trinkets? Your guild is 5/7 and average ilvl 883. My guild killed Xavius in average 870 gear.

Your guild beats Method/Serenity and Exorsus then? PogChamp

[Deleted]

Your guild beats Method/Serenity and Exorsus then? PogChamp

Methods ilvl was 869.81 according to wowprogress, top100 was 874 ilvl

[Hctaz]

You're essentially mad because there's always something you can do to improve your character. There's never a max. This is the feeling most people who play the game, because not everyone has the time to dedicate 6+ hours a day to it and there's always someone willing to spend more. Welcome to the club?

I couldn't care less about the AP grind honestly. It's the gear and legendary grind I'm referring to. At some point you can hit the cap with that but it comes at the price of luck. It's luck which dungeon you get with your keystone, it's luck if the right piece of gear drops, and it's luck if the gear rolls 895 or not. There are plenty of BiS pieces that come from dungeons as well. Mainly trinkets and jewelry since the pool of items is so damn low.

But yeah maybe welcome to the club is an appropriate statement. I just think it's okay to remove a part of the reason why the game was fun for some people. There was an obtainable goal that you could get. AP is one thing. I actually enjoy the alternative max level character progression but I also think even that should be semi capped. Gear is also max level character progression and the game was fine with that having a cap.

[saeros]

Ok, so your point is what again? You need those high ilvl trinkets? Your guild is 5/7 and average ilvl 883. My guild killed Xavius in average 870 gear.

i don't get why people pretend to be superior because "you don't even that, why do you care about it" but get mad if you want to put a cap on it or simply adjust the reward system.

if nobody needs the gear, why it is so important that the best items are in m+?

[Donimic]

Ok, so your point is what again? You need those high ilvl trinkets? Your guild is 5/7 and average ilvl 883. My guild killed Xavius in average 870 gear.

dude chill out, the strive of personal excellence does not have to be reflective of the group he rolls with.

This isn't a dick measuring contest so please put yours away.

[Jewsco]

sure, but
-there was a cap
-not all gear available
-not bis

can't you see why it was different?

And why was it capped and the gear taken away?
Because supposed hardcore raiders claimed it was manditory and called it welfare gear.
Heck they had to take tier gear and good trinkets or if Lfr because that was manditory too.
See how no matter what these hardcores complain?

[Deleted]

i don't get why people pretend to be superior because "you don't even that, why do you care about it" but get mad if you want to put a cap on it or simply adjust the reward system.

if nobody needs the gear, why it is so important that the best items are in m+?

My point is that the ilvl of single very lucky drops doesn't matter in the big picture. You either get one or you don't, it doesn't matter. I don't see a problem in titanforged trinkets from dungeons.

My other point is that mostly bads are angry at the randomness that is titanforged. Good/experianced players know that other things count

[MoanaLisa]

And yet it takes less organization. They have said before that counts for something in their eyes. Except it doesn't currently apparently.

I don't buy into the idea that guild personnel management or requiring higher ilevel than necessary for pugs is something that should count for higher level rewards. We can agree to disagree and I'm very comfortable thinking that Blizzard is wrong in this case.

Less room for error implies higher difficulty.

[Coldvibes]

people never seem to understand the difference between competitive and viable

[Tradu]

The alternative is Warlords of Draenor.

I'll take Legion's approach, thank you very much.

No, there is this thing called a middle ground.

[Dug]

Nobody forces you to do anything. If a guild is demanding it then find another one that isn't full of assholes or start your own. Community standards are solely decided and enforced by the community. Be the change you want to see if you don't like it.

[Deleted]

My point is that the ilvl of single very lucky drops doesn't matter in the big picture. You either get one or you don't, it doesn't matter. I don't see a problem in titanforged trinkets from dungeons.

My other point is that mostly bads are angry at the randomness that is titanforged. Good/experianced players know that other things count

The bigger picture can go to hell tho, we are talking about the individual experience of each player here, not some macro-itemonomics.

[Notdev]

It's painfully apparent how many people who never stepped foot into a raid or at least never have been a part of an organized raiding guild post their opinions on how organized raiding works in this thread.

"You aren't forced"
"The game was always grindy, in Vanilla it was super grindy"
"Just tell your RL to not have ridiculous standards"

It doesn't work like that.

When people say forced or required, sure, they don't really mean gun-to-head forced.
However, say you're in a raid team with 25 members. The guild is progression oriented. You're a good player, who mainly plays to raid. You log in outside of raid now and then, do your emissary quests daily, and do a few mythic+ runs here and there.

The you're guild doesn't require you to do anything outside of raids, but lets say 18-20 of those raiders prefer to put a lot of effort in doing all raid difficulties weekly, and have run 200+ mythic+ dungeons since launch, all outside of raid and got their 5% buff from their 35th trait. Meanwhile as someone who has maybe done 30 mythic+ dungeons, did normal/heroics once or twice outside of progression, and doesn't run LFR is stuck back at 30 and probably won't be getting 35 at their current pace for another 4-5 weeks. All of a sudden you're on the outside looking in, and feel inclined (a nicer way of saying required/forced) to pick up the pace and grind out a bunch of AP asap or lose your spot for 4-5 weeks, if not for good.

5% absolutely matters in a progression setting. While I am fine in that I have my 35th trait, our guild has lost 4-5 long time members who were used to mainly playing to raid (they quit, didn't go to other guilds), although they'd play more during new content. As a 2 day guild we were really attractive to people who had time demanding jobs, hobbies, families, etc other stuff outside of WoW. Now, however, they ARE forced to either put in at least another 7-14 hours a week into the game outside of raiding to stay on top of things OR lose their spot. There is significant pressure to do so. And for the vast majority of these long time members, "just find another guild that suits your needs" isn't an option. Because they enjoyed raiding with their current team. And literally ANY team that is mythic progression focused will indirectly or directly require you to do some sort of effort outside of raids.

So they quit.

I also wonder why people instantly think RLs/GMs/Guilds are "assholes" when they ask people to put effort in outside of raids. Sorry dude, if you're sitting there at 875 ilvl and 25 traits with 12 M+ dungeons completed and you're falling behind in performance to the 885 guy who has 35 traids who has run 300 M+, you're going to be replaced. We don't hate you. But we want to kill bosses. And talk of people starting their own guild or finding one that doesn't mind you doing nothing or barely anything outside of raids, what kind of progression would you expect from a mythic guild that wouldn't mind if every single one of their raiders didn't touch M+, or got all of their AP from raiding?

Again, the alternative for most of these people isn't finding another guild. It's quitting. Which people must see has an adverse effect on the game.

The grind isn't limited to AP either. There is an implied legendary grind. An implied M+ grind. A raider who gets all of his gear from raiding WILL fall 10-20 ilvls behind someone who runs a significant amount of mythic+ as well as raids.

And yeah, the game has always had grinds. But the grinds always had an end in sight. (the AP grind's end is out of sight for 95% of WoW's players. And they said they were adding even more traits, further extending that ending) And the grinds didn't require you to play 8+ hours a day to get far ahead of the curve. Comparing the AP grind to attunements or slow raid gearing is just silly.

Oh.. and I've seen so many people say that these kind of threads are what got us WoD, and the alternative is WoD, and there is nothing in between. Except there is... The 3 expansions + vanilla before WoD were in between WoD and Legion.

This isn't a complaint, just an observation. I have ample time to play WoW outside of raid and my RL obligations. But many don't, and for the first time in a long time have to make a choice. I just think that there is a happy medium that could be found.

[mahesvara]

It's not unreasonable to think that high-level M+ is at least as difficult as mythic raiding and maybe more so. Less room for error certainly.

I'd partially agree, depending on the affix/comp/key/dung m+ can be significantly easier than mythic raiding.

[araine]

No it isn't my problem.
You think its optional and you are okay been a slacker.
People who actually value performance do not think its optional and they will do what ever they need to perform better it doesn't matter if its 0.5% or 5%.

Stop saying the problem is with players when it isn't.
Choosing to lack behind and be damned as a slacker is a choice you make by not doing the grind.

your alternative is WoD and we all know how fantastic that was you really miss sitting in your garrison that much here is a solution for you, just hearth over there for a few hours each day and you should feel right at home in WoD style game play again.


It is a problem with the players and the guilds not with the game when you cant restrict your game play in a healthy way.