Arthas, Prince who saved the world

[Aucald]

The most obvious and believable explanation for Arthas' final words is that Arthas' own soul, with the destruction of Frostmourne, returned on its own body and "made" him think/feel that way, judging all the things he has done with his humanity finally restored, albeit for a few moments before dying.

That's an interesting take on it, albeit one chock full of fridge horror. I could only imagine what that would feel like - having committed no end of atrocities because your soul had been taken or your humanity temporarily suborned, only to have it returned to you as you took your final breath and was able to take in the full realization of your actions. Would make the upcoming punishment in the afterlife seem a bit anticlimactic, IMO.

[Friendlyimmolation]

So I think I may have figured out why This Guy/girl still thinks there is an argument. You are mistaking arrogance for mercy. He doesn't need to run after the players, he doesn't need to instantly one shot Jaina, not because he has any humanity, but because he enjoys it, he thought he was invincible and he enjoyed making people suffer before they die.

This is my last post as well, because you still seem to not understand what a fact is. The book makes it quite clear Arthas god rid of any goodness in him that would have held him back even if it was the case.

[Deleted]

So I think I may have figured out why This Guy/girl still thinks there is an argument. You are mistaking arrogance for mercy. He doesn't need to run after the players, he doesn't need to instantly one shot Jaina, not because he has any humanity, but because he enjoys it, he thought he was invincible and he enjoyed making people suffer before they die.

This is my last post as well, because you still seem to not understand what a fact is. The book makes it quite clear Arthas god rid of any goodness in him that would have held him back even if it was the case.

No. He was good only on logical level. Not humane.

[Zulkhan]

No. He was good only on logical level. Not humane.

What's that supposed to mean? I don't get what you're exactly refering at.

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That's an interesting take on it, albeit one chock full of fridge horror. I could only imagine what that would feel like - having committed no end of atrocities because your soul had been taken or your humanity temporarily suborned, only to have it returned to you as you took your final breath and was able to take in the full realization of your actions. Would make the upcoming punishment in the afterlife seem a bit anticlimactic, IMO.

Well, he culled Stratholme when he still had a soul, and I don't think whatever force dragging you in the Shadowlands give a damn about your motivations for the suffering and death you delivered in life. He also lied and indirectly murdered people in cold blood, always when he had a soul.

[Aucald]

Well, he culled Stratholme when he still had a soul, and I don't think whatever force dragging you in the Shadowlands give a damn about your motivations for the suffering and death you delivered in life. He also lied and indirectly murdered people in cold blood, always when he had a soul.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it, I just think the heel realization of regaining his soul and/or humanity moments before his death sounds like an even worse punishment. YMMV, of course.

[Mehrunes]

I remember in the novel a part where it said that Frostmourne almost "enjoyed" claiming the last lingering piece of Arthas' soul, which means the "killing" occurred only figuratively within the Lich King's mind, where in fact Arthas simply succeeded in banishing his own soul utterly through Frostmourne. That would mean that with Frostmourne's destruction the whole of his "good side" would have effectively returned to him.

Yeah, but then the good side was linked to his heart and Tirion ultimately destroyed his heart, with the boy spirit nowhere to be seen afterwards. Then again, as I said, the whole thing with little good Arthas and adult evil Arthas is convoluted as hell even within the book, let alone when you introduce the Tirion's Gambit questline. I have no clue how this thing works and what are the specifics.

[Magnagarde]

I have no idea why the culling of Stratholme is taken as a turning point for his character. He killed people that were just about to turn into mindless zombies, not even proper Scourge-type of undead that could eventually be freed of Ner'zhul's grasp. Picking up Frostmourne should be the pivotal turning point; a paladin would never willingly damn his soul and those he loves.

If there was a possibility to help them and if he chose to annihilate the city anyway, then it'd be a blatantly evil move. Killing someone who can in no way be helped is not as a bad as damning your soul and your entire kingdom through it.

[Aquamonkey]

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it, I just think the heel realization of regaining his soul and/or humanity moments before his death sounds like an even worse punishment. YMMV, of course.

That is pmuch what happened to Sylvanas. Her soul became whole when she jumped off ICC, only to feel it suffer.

And then she felt—truly felt, for the first time in a long while. She recoiled. In agony.
Here she was, her spirit once again feeling whole, only to feel it suffer. To feel once more, only to feel abject pain. Cold. Hopelessness.
--Edge of Night

Arthas didn't seem at that point of agony yet while on the floor of ICC, but he probably had a version of it before dying. Losing a soul or having it fractured seems to dull one's emotional spectrum (similar to necromantic resurrection).

[Deleted]

He killed people that were just about to turn into mindless zombies

That's precisely because of it, he killed his own people, he failed the promise that made after he killed Invincible. Like I said before, Arthas was full of pride and even after all the training and becoming a paladin, he still failed.

As result, he went full revenge.

[Magnagarde]

That's precisely because of it, he killed his own people, he failed the promise that made after he killed Invincible. Like I said before, Arthas was full of pride and even after all the training and becoming a paladin, he still failed.

As result, he went full revenge.

Well yeah, I completely agree on that. Even if he hadn't made the promise, he would still have to kill them anyway because there was no helping them.

If we are talking about the fact that he couldn't protect them from the plague in the first place, then yeah, you're spot on.

[Zulkhan]

I have no idea why the culling of Stratholme is taken as a turning point for his character.

It's not a turning point of the character itself, it was rather the first proof of why Ner'zhul wanted this guy as champion. From that point on Arthas kept giving more and more reasons for why Ner'zhul chose him.

Picking up Frostmourne should be the pivotal turning point; a paladin would never willingly damn his soul and those he loves.

The Culling of Stratholme was a turning point already from a Paladin's perspective; they would never choose the "easy way", rather facing whatever consequence than personally bring pain, suffering and death on innocent people. Which is highly idealistic, indeed, but that's definitely the choice a true paladin would make. When it was needed Arthas easily discarded the characteristic empathy of paladins and acted with sheer and calculated ruthlessness...which is the exact trait Ner'zhul looked for.

Arthas' choice was somewhat understandable from the point of view of a leader, but as a paladin he already crossed the treshold in that moment, let alone all the other henious, treacherous and dishonorable acts he performed later on, culminating with the picking of Frostmourne.

[Deleted]

The Culling of Stratholme was a turning point already from a Paladin's perspective; they would never choose the "easy way", rather facing whatever consequence than personally bring pain, suffering and death on innocent people. Which is highly idealistic, indeed, but that's definitely the choice a true paladin would make. When it was needed Arthas easily discarded the characteristic empathy of paladins and acted with sheer and calculated ruthlessness...which is the exact trait Ner'zhul looked for.

Arthas' choice was somewhat understandable from the point of view of a leader, but as a paladin he already crossed the treshold in that moment, let alone all the other henious, treacherous and dishonorable acts he performed later on, culminating with the picking Frostmourne.

Pretty much. He choose to become a paladin (and breaking up with Jaina) in order to be the best protector that his people needed and still wasn't enough for him. After all, "whatever it takes" became his motto after Invincible's death.

[Zulkhan]

Pretty much. He choose to become a paladin (and breaking up with Jaina) in order to be the best protector that his people needed and still wasn't enough for him. After all, "whatever it takes" became his motto after Invincible's death.

Which brings yet another strong parallel with his orcish counterpart, Garrosh Hellscream. Garrosh as well was full of pride, didn't take well losing and that pride was all the more hurt the more he failed, hence why he progressively discarded whatever belief he held dear and that effectively became annoying obstacles in his path. Proving that he was worthy of his father's legacy became the only reason of his existence and the only one that mattered to him in the end.

And like Arthas, when everything crumbled to pieces after MoP, revenge became his only goal in life, either lying or murdering in order to achieve it.

[Deleted]

Arthas will become the new antihero in the next xpac just like illidan has in legion.

[Aucald]

Arthas will become the new antihero in the next xpac just like illidan has in legion.

I would say that's doubtful. Arthas is dead and his storyline pretty much told, there's no compelling reason to bring him back. Illidan at least has the excuse that his story was not so well told - there were plot points and story elements left out of his original arc (WC3 to TBC) that made his return a possibility. The anti-hero role was the niche Illidan originally occupied before his portrayal in TBC, back in WC3 and WC3:TFT, so I kind of see it more as a return to form as any kind of real alteration in his character for Legion.

[Zulkhan]

Dankdruid is the well known troll of the Lore section. Either ignore him or ban him already.

[Aucald]

Dankdruid is the well known troll of the Lore section. Either ignore him or ban him already.

Following moderation actions I'm generally inclined give a person a chance to prove themselves and so treat them as any other poster until further action is required.

[Deleted]

Following moderation actions I'm generally inclined give a person a chance to prove themselves and so treat them as any other poster until further action is required.

thank you, i do not know how what i said was 'trolling' but anyway thanks for the opportunity.

the anti-hero role has been filled but what about the just plain villain role. if the next xpac was to involve the void lords, they could bring Arthas back and have him do their bidding for a raid or 2 before killing him or setting him free w/e so that he becomes Arthas pre corrupted.

[Zulkhan]

Following moderation actions I'm generally inclined give a person a chance to prove themselves and so treat them as any other poster until further action is required.

The poster in question did nothing but trolling the whole time he was here, he got banned multiple times and still persisted in his ways.

Let's say I'm not entirely sure that he, of all people, deserves second chances. And while banning/infracting people without blatant actions worthy of such direct treatment is not definitely fair, I would suggest at least to not give much consideration to a poster that constantly, repeatedly and stubbornly persevered in trolling this section. I would hate to see people being genuine in their arguing when in fact are just trolled from this jester.

I mean, he just started his post with "X character will become Y next expansion" which is quite a red flag already and now he wrote further...stuff that is clearly not there for genuinely arguing, is just...well, there. For whatever reason.

Again, an advice for all. The first and last in this thread.

[Magnagarde]

It is easy to simply ignore a thread if you believe it is a troll one.