I like to raid - I do not like beeing forced to do other content to be viable

[Ehuehuecopter]

There's something in between.

the things in between is that YOU ARENT FORCE TO DO ALL OR DO TO NOTHING


and first the whiny part of the playerbase will get it, better will be for all

[araine]

People aren't asked by raid leaders to do this stuff, you do it because you don't want to be the slacker that is letting the guild down and its burning people out, fast.

And again it boils down to the player and the guild being the problem not the game.

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the things in between is that YOU ARENT FORCE TO DO ALL OR DO TO NOTHING


and first the whiny part of the playerbase will get it, better will be for all

Exactly just put some limits on your game play and perhaps your guild isnt the right match for you if you dont want to treat it like another 60 hr work week place.

[Notdev]

What you're all basically saying is "progression raider who doesn't have a lot of time outside of raid? Stop being a progression raider or quit".

You're right, they aren't forced, but those are your choices.

[Uthan]

That's cool and all but why does the raiding alternative not have a weekly lockout wheras raiding does?

Probably mostly due to blizz once again underestimating how insane part of the playerbase is. As nice as it would be to have some option without a lockout it doesn't seem very likely anything else would stop people from farming it 24/7. Not sure what would be ideal and how that'd work either, maybe 30-50 runs a week?Regardless it'll probably cause a shitstorm whatever solution they choose. Just hope it doesn't end with nerfing dungeons back into non-content again.

[Rogalicus]

now people are complaining about there being tons to do... really?

By tons to do you mean 'grind mythic+2', 'grind mythic+5' and 'grind mythic+8'?

[Nikkej]

People aren't asked by raid leaders to do this stuff, you do it because you don't want to be the slacker that is letting the guild down and its burning people out, fast.

This. I have allways, allways been on top when it comes to preparation. I want to be as good as it possible is to be. Now I am facing a shitwall of really boring and repetative stuff that I am forced to do to stay anywhere near that kind of level. That sux.


Grind gold for potion or run around herb? Sure thing. You have to get your food n drinks to be relevant. The economic is decent as well. Even when stuff was really, really expensive, you could still earn gold by do some herbing or smt else and get it done.


So totally irrelevant Random Heroic? Grind Mythic+ Keys and prob. boost bad players to get keys rolling in over and over to get the best possible gear for raiding? Do shit boring Worldquests that floods in? Thats just fucking dogshit boring and burns ppl out.
T

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remember when people complained in wod it was raid or nothing?
now people are complaining about there being tons to do... really?

You could run CM;s over and over again in WoD.


Equals to WoD was filled with content, or?

[BannedForViews]

The reason is to keep players playing the game. Blizzard has communicated exactly that. What don't people understand?

I understand that it is a bad system. It would be better if content tiers were designed better than if we had to rely on farming shit tier content for lucky drops. Why am I queuing lfr with an 880 character? Why are people still running normal mythic groups with 860 ilvl reqs, or random heroics, or normal EN speed runs? It's about getting a lucky drop like we are all playing D3. It is a bad design.

[Itisamuh]

So basically, a raider is whining that he has to do more than raid, while people with no interest in raiding are forced to raid to be viable?

[Volitar]

Also I've never understood why World Quests gets so heavily praised, its just daily quests that you never hit exalted with.

I would rather do 30 daily a day for a month than 5-15 every day for the whole expansion.

[Wildpantz]

What AK do you have ? 3 weeks, 21 days = lvl 7 at most. I call bullshit on the max 15 hours per week, 45 hours is not even 2 days of played at 110.

I use the app to keep ak rolling on 4 chars. Also i played alot more first 4 weeks

[saeros]

So basically, a raider is whining that he has to do more than raid, while people with no interest in raiding are forced to raid to be viable?

"be viable" for what, exactly?

[Coldvibes]

No one forces you to do LFR, shitspamming Maw is the single most effective thing you can do with your time online right now.

If anything, what needs to be addressed is the efficiency of Maw and all M+ dungeons need to give AP relative to the amount of time "the dungeon should take".

[Laerrus]

I don't see why you feel forced to run trivial content unless you are raiding at the Method, Serenity or Limit level of progression.

But, okay, here is a solution. You put the biggest AP gains in Mythic raids. Make the tokens 10x as valuable as what drops off of the best WQs.

That will render everything else trivial enough so you won't be forced into playing with players that are beneath you.

[Nikkej]

Exactly just put some limits on your game play and perhaps your guild isnt the right match for you if you dont want to treat it like another 60 hr work week place.

Thing is here to that its getting out of control.

When we was about to start HC raiding, it was said you should have 840+ and atleast level 14 in your artifact.
This sounds like super izi now, but in fact, with artifact research at like... nothing more or less, it still was needed to do put in a lil of effort. That was fine.

Now you will see guilds with a range from 38 to like 30 in artifact. This will just escalate. I already seen two really good players quit the game cus they just cba to do the grind thats needed - cus its not fun. The very top grinders are muttering about people beeing slackers. I can see this be a thing in....1 month maybe? TO others really feel the same.


Just login, do WQ, Random HC and a M+ here and there aint enough to keep up if you wanna stay relevant in a raid and try to perform your best. Thats totally ok tho that ppl put in most effort gets the most rewards. But then it could be about the one mining the most or herbing the most as well, thats just related to raiding as 5 man grinding content.

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So basically, a raider is whining that he has to do more than raid, while people with no interest in raiding are forced to raid to be viable?

What should the non raiders be viable to do, look at their ilvl when afk standing or killing criters? Lol. You are a funny guy you.

To get the best gear in the game you have to been able to attend and perform at high end raiding enviroment OR be really good at PvP.

Now you do not need to be a good player to get be best rreward. You only have to throw some acid in, freebase and grind the shit out of piss boring content.

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I don't see why you feel forced to run trivial content unless you are raiding at the Method, Serenity or Limit level of progression.

But, okay, here is a solution. You put the biggest AP gains in Mythic raids. Make the tokens 10x as valuable as what drops off of the best WQs.

That will render everything else trivial enough so you won't be forced into playing with players that are beneath you.

Problem with this is that you still would have to run the M+ that gave AP anyway.

[BannedForViews]

remember when people complained in wod it was raid or nothing?
now people are complaining about there being tons to do... really?

There is a difference between only raiding and too much to do to be successful at raiding. They sold mythic+ as a REPLACEMENT for raiding, not as a mandatory supplement. Going from Heroic to Mythic EN is a hard endevor for people who have the correct gear level. The first guilds that ran through Mythic EN had higher than 865 average ilvl because of spamming mythic+. Most not so try hards have substantially higher ilvls, nearly mythic EN ilvls to work their way through it. They had to do this because they have to design around the optimal player. If they know you can "spam" out higher gear through dungeon farming, they have to design raids around you doing that so that it won't be more trivial for you. This is why gear progression always came through tiers of raids, not random uprolled loot or endlessly replayable dungeons.

If they had designed Mythic+ to be a true replacement to raiding it would have been more successful. it is what they originally tried in Wrath with 10 and 25 man dungeons, but the mechanics of fights were more basic back then and it didn't really have the same effect.

[araine]

Thing is here to that its getting out of control.

When we was about to start HC raiding, it was said you should have 840+ and atleast level 14 in your artifact.
This sounds like super izi now, but in fact, with artifact research at like... nothing more or less, it still was needed to do put in a lil of effort. That was fine.

Now you will see guilds with a range from 38 to like 30 in artifact. This will just escalate. I already seen two really good players quit the game cus they just cba to do the grind thats needed - cus its not fun. The very top grinders are muttering about people beeing slackers. I can see this be a thing in....1 month maybe? TO others really feel the same.


Just login, do WQ, Random HC and a M+ here and there aint enough to keep up if you wanna stay relevant in a raid and try to perform your best. Thats totally ok tho that ppl put in most effort gets the most rewards. But then it could be about the one mining the most or herbing the most as well, thats just related to raiding as 5 man grinding content.

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What should the non raiders be viable to do, look at their ilvl when afk standing or killing criters? Lol. You are a funny guy you.

To get the best gear in the game you have to been able to attend and perform at high end raiding enviroment OR be really good at PvP.

Now you do not need to be a good player to get be best rreward. You only have to throw some acid in, freebase and grind the shit out of piss boring content.

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Problem with this is that you still would have to run the M+ that gave AP anyway.

They tried that in WoD it cost 6 million subs

[Notdev]

They tried that in WoD it cost 6 million subs

There is something in between.

[dmfg]

You can advertise this all you want, but once you include "as long as you perform" your guild cares how much AP/mythic+ you farm. Because assuming equal skill level someone who farms m+ gear and has 35 traits will outperform someone who doesn't and is still at 30 traits or less.

Yeah but people don't have equal skill level. You're not compared against some imaginary person who has the exact same skill and gear but different AP.

In our mythic roster, there are no two people who I would say are at equal skill level. A handful of our core raiders don't even do their weekly +12, and over half do zero Mythic+ outside of the weekly +12. Our top non-shadow DPS has 30 artifact traits. One guy has his 35 golden and he's a rock solid performer, but I would have to look hard at logs to tell you if he's consistently outperforming the other hunters who don't have it - 5% is really not a big deal. We have first kills where half the raid is on 55-60% WClogs percentiles. It's fine. It's not a problem.

If we were collectively better players, maybe we would be 1/3M or something, but it wouldn't really matter. You can kill bosses just fine without any of that mythic+ grinding stuff. Just find like minded people of vaguely comparable goals and skills, and noone will be holding anyone back.

[darkwarrior42]

Also I've never understood why World Quests gets so heavily praised, its just daily quests that you never hit exalted with.

I would rather do 30 daily a day for a month than 5-15 every day for the whole expansion.

Generally speaking daily quests were done for two reasons: gold and rep. The rep you maxxed out after a while, and the gold was never a truly large amount.

World quests are done for multiple reasons, but you can see what you get from them ahead of time. Right now, if I wanted gold, there are 5 world quests up that would give me a total of 2471 gold. If I want AP, there are a bunch that give that. It's the same basic premise as daily quests, but with a bit more variation and the ability to pick specifically what you want.

I think the difference is that you obviously don't enjoy the content, so want it to be over with. Some people (myself included) enjoy questing, and while world quests get repetitive after a while, it's nice to have the option available.

[Heltoray]

I totally agree here. Since there are lots of people in wow who really do throw in all the time of their life to grind lal kinds of pve relevant shit, it is getting very unmotivating if you can't or don't want to spend 5 hours a day to stay competitive. There should not be this much gain from sheer time investment. This has never been the case and it is absolutely killing the fun for me personally.