[TV] Westworld

[Relapses]

Already suspected he was Arnold. In fact, someone messaged me about that theory some week ago. Arnold (A), Bernard (B) and that he was "attempt 2" at making a more compliant version of Arnold and that Arnold was killed for opposing Ford.

Doesn't seem entirely true that theory, but I'm surprised by how much of that actually turned out to be true

Some dude on reddit figured it out around the time episode 4 aired.

[-aiko-]

Kinda disappointed that we were right about so many key plot points. I'm still hoping they find a way to throw a curveball, otherwise the show has been a little too predictable. Pretty God damn enjoyable though.

William=MIB is the most disappointing to me. I'm gonna hang on to some hope that they are throwing us off and have a better reveal.

[Chantique]

Did you guys noticed that when logan shows the picture of williams wife, its the same picture that dolores father found in episode 1? I think its another proof that we are actually seeing two different timelines and that william is in fact the MiB.

[Dasffion]

I really think you guys are ´thinking´ to much about the MIB and William thing. I do not think there are all these time-lines.. I think there are just a couple of hosts that have strong memories and just remember stuff they shouldn´t be remembering. MIB is basically what he says he is.. Someone who spent too much time there and wants to solve the ultimate game... which seems to be ´what is the purpose of the project´..

The multiple timelines was proved last episode. All the hosts that William dismantled last episode were the mechanical type that are discontinued in the present day park. Whether or not William is the man in black remains to be seen but the butchery makes it seem likely. For what it's worth I was very skeptical of the multiple timeline theory before the last episode.

[Endus]

Kinda disappointed that we were right about so many key plot points. I'm still hoping they find a way to throw a curveball, otherwise the show has been a little too predictable. Pretty God damn enjoyable though.

Two points;

First, we live in a culture where guessing where the story's going is now a major part of the TV "experience" for shows like this. And given the number of viewers, the sheer number of predictions made means SOMEONE is probably gonna get it right, if you're foreshadowing at all, which you should be (otherwise, the reveal comes across as a cheat).

Second, given the above, the quality and care that the story is constructed with becomes increasingly important. This is why bad shows like Lost are looked at so poorly in retrospect when they were major players at their beginning; it became clear that the writers were tossing shit at the screen, forgetting plot threads, making up new shit as needed to keep extending the mystery. With Westworld, by comparison, it's all there, from the beginning, if you go back and look. It's not obvious, but Bernard was never intended to be anything but Arnold's carbon-copy replacement, under Ford's control. In fact, they've underscored that the scenes we saw with Bernard and Dolores, which seemed a little "off", were "off" because that's ARNOLD, 35 years ago.

It's the difference between slapping more and more paint on a canvas hoping something looks good at some point, and wiping away a layer of obscuring grime piece by piece and slowly revealing the entire work of art. In the latter, it's all there in the bones, you just can't see some of it, yet.

[Paarthurnax]

She's doesn't know it's William. The only memory she currently has of the MiB is him killing Teddy, then dragging her to the barn and raping her (did he though?).

Judging by the preview for next weeks episode, it looked like both were tolerating each other while discussing something by a gravestone, so he could reveal who he actually is.

I wouldn't be so sure. The MiB clearly thinks Dolores plays some role in the "maze" which is partially true since i think Dolores is probably the only true AI Consciousness to have emerged from the park to date, the rest are close but just not quite there. Also in that same preview we see Dolores dragging the MiB by the collar through the church like he did to her in the barn. So clearly things aren't peachy keen.

[Endus]

I'm not so sure he does think she does play a part. If he had, he wouldn't have just raped her then went on his way. I think them meeting each other at the church was also a surprise for him.

The Maze seems to be something Arnold built in for the hosts, and it's the hosts who have information about it, and seek it. The MiB is the only human who's tried, and he's constantly told it's "not for him". His smirk is because he knows why Dolores is there; she's looking for the Maze, even if she doesn't realize it. Whether he sees her as a competitor or a tool, at this stage, remains to be seen.

[melodramocracy]

The maze must be some 'unlock' of full self awareness for hosts. It seemed to be a pretty big tell that Maeve is shown in the center of it when MiB is telling the tale of killing her, and hosts having a fully functioning consciousness was one of Arnolds goals in all of this.

[Thelxi]

Hoping the season finale is good, this show is getting a bit messy / ridiculous in its delivery.

I don't know about ridiculous, but the messy delivery is deliberate and genius. With the messed up timelines they kind of force us viewers to experience the world in the same way that the robots experience it by having to piece together confusing memories.

[eschatological]

If MiB is William why is Dolores terrified of him?.

I think the better question is why does he hate Dolores so much? Even in this last episode after he's dismembered all the bodies he's still threatening Logan to help him find Dolores - I'm assuming for some greater reason than to just take her apart.

Two points on why he might not actually hate Dolores:

1) We never see him rape her in the barn. His reference to having her (I'd have to re-watch the episode) over the years could have been consensual, he only claims to have gone black hat in the past couple of years.

2) He tells a story about how his wife feared him and that he was always distant - perhaps thinking about Dolores. We now know the wife is the person in the photo, and Logan's sister. And that the photo initially triggered Dolores consciousness.

[melodramocracy]

I think the better question is why does he hate Dolores so much? Even in this last episode after he's dismembered all the bodies he's still threatening Logan to help him find Dolores - I'm assuming for some greater reason than to just take her apart.

Two points on why he might not actually hate Dolores:

1) We never see him rape her in the barn. His reference to having her (I'd have to re-watch the episode) over the years could have been consensual, he only claims to have gone black hat in the past couple of years.

2) He tells a story about how his wife feared him and that he was always distant - perhaps thinking about Dolores. We now know the wife is the person in the photo, and Logan's sister. And that the photo initially triggered Dolores consciousness.

The picture triggers the father, not her. She doesn't *see* anything in the picture, much like Bernard didn't see the door or himself in the drawings a few episodes ago.

The MiB = William theory sort of falls apart when you realize that near the end of episode 3, Dolores gets forced into the barn by a random other host, has a flashback of that same encounter happening with MiB, and shoots the host. She then runs off, and eventually runs into William and Logan (thus kicking off that particular adventure).

[cubby]

Holy hell, what an episode.

MAJOR spoilers, so don't click. I'm giving a text warning in addition to the tags.

So Bernard is an Arnold replicant.
William is the Man in Black, 30 years apart.
The scenes with "Bernard" and Dolores were ARNOLD and Dolores.
Some of the hosts, Arnold's original models and the few Ford mimicked, are "sentient hosts", but apparently most aren't capable of it. We can presume Dolores and Maeve as well as Bernard.

Ford is the best "brilliant villain" character I have EVER seen portrayed. Legitimately outsmarting everyone at every point, always having predicted whatever comes to pass and prepared a response.

Could not agree more (had to wait a day so wifely and I could watch together - hence I'm a bit late to the party).

One thing: where are you seeing that William is the Man in Black. I want to believe, but I didn't "see" it in that last episode, if that makes sense.

[Endus]

One thing: where are you seeing that William is the Man in Black. I want to believe, but I didn't "see" it in that last episode, if that makes sense.

It's not really explicit, there's some framing (particularly the church scene) which makes far more narrative sense if that's the case, the transposition of the two just doesn't line up nearly as well if they aren't.

That, plus the massacre scene which showed William's got the wherewithal to be that kind of a butcher, even early on.

[cubby]

Are we still spoiler marking everything?

Yeh she goes from dress to prairie cloths during her time down stairs, I took that to mean she was remembering. Like when she first walks into the church, she is in blue dress and there are all the Hosts, the guest service lady is there, and they are all kinda wonkey, I think that was the waiting room for Arnold, and she was remembering a previous visit. Then she is flashing from memory to present until she comes up to meet Black Hat. The picture that Logan gives Will is the same one Delores' dad finds that sends him off to glue factory. The best I figure is she cut Logan, staff was alerted, she got picked up and wiped, spent ~30 years being raped and murdered, then at some point snapped back into the "find the maze" routine.

It will all be more clear next week as we are given a clearer picture of Black Hats life, at least I am assuming.

I love all the analysis.

I see Dolores remembering back to various times as her switch from wearing a dress to wearing the cowboy outfit. Which to me signified evidence that William is NOT the MiB - because she is wearing the cowboy clothes both with William and when the MiB comes through the church at then. Whereas, she is wearing the dress, and therefore we are seeing a memory, when she reveals the discussions with Arnold/Bernard and her final reveal that she killed Arnold.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not really explicit, there's some framing (particularly the church scene) which makes far more narrative sense if that's the case, the transposition of the two just doesn't line up nearly as well if they aren't.

That, plus the massacre scene which showed William's got the wherewithal to be that kind of a butcher, even early on.

I saw the framing your referencing as a distinction between William and the MiB - because of the dress/cowboy outfits.

- - - Updated - - -

If MiB is William why is Dolores terrified of him?

And did you guys saw that old picture of the 3 founders, with Arnold and Ford? My guess the 3rd is MiB.

But yeah, all the evidence points to him being William. They'll have to do a lot of explaining as to how his relationship with Dolores developed.

I was curious about the 3rd person in that photo as well. The MiB is a good theory - but it seems to obvious, especially for this level of plot and reveal - which has been brilliant so far.

I disagree that William is MiB - most of the evidence we have points to the opposite.

- - - Updated - - -

Right. That scene has much less impact if it isn't the case. The entire point was that her past and present were bleeding into each other; hoping it's William from 30 years ago only to find it's the Man in Black of today at the door is why she's horrified.



That's the confirmation, to me. That's the moment when he said "fuck this place and its bullshit" and stopped treating hosts like people.



Because it's William, and she knows how far he's fallen, quite possibly. She knows the Man in Black, at the very least, and that he's at least murdered if not raped her in the past.



I think we have it all.

William enters the park for the first time, with Logan.
They run around, he meets Dolores, is smitten, but leaves her behind.
Dolores goes off-script and runs into the two of them, William sees it as fate and insists she come along.
They fall for each other.
Shenanigans occur.
Logan catches up, exposes her as a machine viscerally (literally), William's heart fully breaks.
William slaughter dozens of hosts, where until now he's avoided it unless they were a threat. He clearly no longer sees them as human. Disavows feelings for Dolores.

30 years pass.

Man in Black has spent that time experiencing everything the park has to offer, jaded and heart beyond repair. Has given up hope, likely wants to die, but the park can't kill him, but then he learns of the Maze and its secret. And his new quest begins, where he ensures he's ready by butchering some innocent hosts, demonstrating that he's reached the point of zero empathy. Dolores at this point is merely a tool, since he no longer believes she's "real", and hasn't for 30 years, since he's seen her repeating the same dull little story over and over.

Don't think we need anything more than that to explain his arc to date.

Dammit - this makes a lot of sense when put into a full arc. Nice summary - it's got me thinking even more.

[melodramocracy]

I was curious about the 3rd person in that photo as well. The MiB is a good theory - but it seems to obvious, especially for this level of plot and reveal - which has been brilliant so far.

I disagree that William is MiB - most of the evidence we have points to the opposite.

The 3rd man in that photo is the host version of Fords father. Ford mentioned that the father host was built for him by Arnold as a gift a few episodes ago.

[cubby]

The 3rd man in that photo is the host version of Fords father. Ford mentioned that the father host was built for him by Arnold as a gift a few episodes ago.

Unless you absolutely saw that, it doesn't make sense. Why Ford's fake father - of all people to put in the phone that reveals so much?

[melodramocracy]

Unless you absolutely saw that, it doesn't make sense. Why Ford's fake father - of all people to put in the phone that reveals so much?

Well, Bernard wouldn't have been able to see himself in the picture.

[cubby]

Well, Bernard wouldn't have been able to see himself in the picture.

I realize that - what I'm saying is that unless you absolutely recognized Ford's father, and instead are just guessing (which is fine, I'm just clarifying not accusing/attacking ), I would argue that it doesn't really push the plot any further by having Ford's host father in the picture.

Perhaps I was misunderstanding what you were saying though. If so, my bad.

And it wasn't the MiB - I was looking for that. But I didn't recognize the guy at all.

[eschatological]

The MiB = William theory sort of falls apart when you realize that near the end of episode 3, Dolores gets forced into the barn by a random other host, has a flashback of that same encounter happening with MiB, and shoots the host. She then runs off, and eventually runs into William and Logan (thus kicking off that particular adventure).

The barn scene triggers her flashbacks........and then she flashes back even further to when she first runs into William/Logan. There's so much evidence that William is MiB at this point. We at least know they're in separate timelines because of the photo. Furthermore, we see her running with her gut split open in the William/Logan era, and then the scene literally transitions to her being uninjured, including the later scene with MiB.

As to why William is specifically MiB, we know the MiB is a) a good man outside of the park, b) was married, a rich philanthropist, but c) is obsessed with Westworld, and d) has taken apart the old versions of hosts to see the mechanical nature - which happened in this last episode, even though MiB mentioned it a few episodes ago.

[Wellendowed]

So nobody was bothered by how Maeve was trivially able not just to see through Bernard, but to order him around like he was any other generic puppet? And why was he alone with her, in light of how violently the hosts have been malfunctioning recently? Also, those two idiots granted her Ford-levels of control (since nobody else's commands work on him)? Why are they even able to do that, when only Ford has it? How do they know that they can do it? Why don't they just grant it to themselves, to command her around? And why does he have him kill himself instead of just resetting him again? And why doesn't Ford care about what triggered Bernard into confronting him?

The whole Maeve storyline is just... pretty bad and rapidly getting worse. Unless the next episode shows Ford actually knowing about Maeve and dealing with her (which is the only reasonable explanation I can imagine for why he doesn't care about why Brenard is doing what he's doing) then it taints even his character as well.