I like to raid - I do not like beeing forced to do other content to be viable

[Doombringer]

Thing is here to that its getting out of control.

When we was about to start HC raiding, it was said you should have 840+ and atleast level 14 in your artifact.
This sounds like super izi now, but in fact, with artifact research at like... nothing more or less, it still was needed to do put in a lil of effort. That was fine.

Now you will see guilds with a range from 38 to like 30 in artifact. This will just escalate. I already seen two really good players quit the game cus they just cba to do the grind thats needed - cus its not fun. The very top grinders are muttering about people beeing slackers. I can see this be a thing in....1 month maybe? TO others really feel the same.


Just login, do WQ, Random HC and a M+ here and there aint enough to keep up if you wanna stay relevant in a raid and try to perform your best. Thats totally ok tho that ppl put in most effort gets the most rewards. But then it could be about the one mining the most or herbing the most as well, thats just related to raiding as 5 man grinding content.

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What should the non raiders be viable to do, look at their ilvl when afk standing or killing criters? Lol. You are a funny guy you.

To get the best gear in the game you have to been able to attend and perform at high end raiding enviroment OR be really good at PvP.

Now you do not need to be a good player to get be best rreward. You only have to throw some acid in, freebase and grind the shit out of piss boring content.

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Problem with this is that you still would have to run the M+ that gave AP anyway.

OP... I don't think you'll ever find satisfaction. Whatever Blizzard designs, someone leading a raid team will find a way to make the most grueling part of it a mandatory thing. People will "have to" slog through it in order to stay "viable" and they'll eventually burn out. They'll quit. It happens again and again and I have to ask ... where are you having any fun? The game should be fun.

It's fun to get loot, but if a raid lead is throwing up 90 hurdles for you to get through and none of that is fun... that's not the developers' fault. They make the quests available and the rewards, sure, but pacing is up to you.

[Nikkej]

They tried that in WoD it cost 6 million subs

They lost subs cus it took to long between the lil content there was, not cus the content was bad. The levelin experience was the best ever produced up to date (id say it was better then Legion as well) but the Garrisson was killing as well.

in my guild iv seen people getting benched cus they didnt had the time or felt they wanted to grind AP like ants on sugar. They got behind. RL telling ppl to get more AP into their sticks or they will not keep their spots. Etc. etc.

The whole problem here is, again, that the best stuff for raiding comes from grinding shit many hours of stuff thats below raiding quality, but then by RNG can procc and become way better then what the raid can give you one time per week.

[MoanaLisa]

Thing is here to that its getting out of control.

When we was about to start HC raiding, it was said you should have 840+ and atleast level 14 in your artifact.
This sounds like super izi now, but in fact, with artifact research at like... nothing more or less, it still was needed to do put in a lil of effort. That was fine.

Now you will see guilds with a range from 38 to like 30 in artifact. This will just escalate. I already seen two really good players quit the game cus they just cba to do the grind thats needed - cus its not fun. The very top grinders are muttering about people beeing slackers. I can see this be a thing in....1 month maybe? TO others really feel the same.

The fact that rewards have been spread out across the entire game at end game is better for most people. This is a deliberate design and a very specific reaction to the raid-or-die design of past expansions which you seem to be anxious to return to and was a catastrophe in Warlords. Your post demonstrates pretty clearly that the problem you see is a social problem and not a game design problem. You want to compete with those that can play more so the answer is to either devalue non-raid content or gate it further by limiting the amount you can run it. It's not that game this time around and with any luck we won't return to that again.

[Rogalicus]

They tried that in WoD it cost 6 million subs

They tried Legion's design in Diablo 3, it died.

[clevin]

Yeah but people don't have equal skill level. You're not compared against some imaginary person who has the exact same skill and gear but different AP.

In our mythic roster, there are no two people who I would say are at equal skill level. A handful of our core raiders don't even do their weekly +12, and over half do zero Mythic+ outside of the weekly +12. Our top non-shadow DPS has 30 artifact traits. One guy has his 35 golden and he's a rock solid performer, but I would have to look hard at logs to tell you if he's consistently outperforming the other hunters who don't have it - 5% is really not a big deal. We have first kills where half the raid is on 55-60% WClogs percentiles. It's fine. It's not a problem.

If we were collectively better players, maybe we would be 1/3M or something, but it wouldn't really matter. You can kill bosses just fine without any of that mythic+ grinding stuff. Just find like minded people of vaguely comparable goals and skills, and noone will be holding anyone back.

Can you kill things? Sure. But if you're not at 35 traits, you're missing 5% damage. Now... how many close wipes are there? Are you really progression oriented if you look at your raid and say "eh, don't care about a 5% boost"?

and then you say it doesn't matter... but you're not even 1/3M ToV? Uh... no, for people who are fine killing whatever, it doesn't matter. For someone who wants to be as good as they can be... it does.

[Nikkej]

The fact that rewards have been spread out across the entire game at end game is better for most people. This is a deliberate design and a very specific reaction to the raid-or-die design of past expansions which you seem to be anxious to return to and was a catastrophe in Warlords. Your post demonstrates pretty clearly that the problem you see is a social problem and not a game design problem. You want to compete with those that can play more so the answer is to either devalue non-raid content or gate it further by limiting the amount you can run it. It's not that game this time around and with any luck we won't return to that again.

I do not mind rewards beeing spread out. Thats fine. I do mind that you have to do, lets say, DHT +6 50 times and you will sooner or later get something like the crit/haste boots as a 895 Titanforged procc (I think its from DHT) or a BiS DPS increasing legendary. You will also get a inifite amount of AP. You do this with 4 friends and a subpar player thats getting carried.


You go kill the hardest content in the game, with 19 other people, You can kill one of the three bosses one time each week. You prob. need minly gear from that DHT +6 or any other M+ to be able to kill the last 3 bosses of the current endgame in mythic raiding. This cus you simply wont have, even if clearing Mythic EN each week, a gear that keeps up with the gear from the spamming of +6 content OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

I hope you see the problem now.

[araine]

There is something in between.

Yep it is called self control, just because they sell 40000 pecan pies in the store doesnt mean you need to be there shopping one everyday

[shonist]

Yeah, new myth dungeon, new WQ, new Story Quest, new raid


i mean this is trash kek

haha cant love you more

[araine]

I do not mind rewards beeing spread out. Thats fine. I do mind that you have to do, lets say, DHT +6 50 times and you will sooner or later get something like the crit/haste boots as a 895 Titanforged procc (I think its from DHT) or a BiS DPS increasing legendary. You will also get a inifite amount of AP. You do this with 4 friends and a subpar player thats getting carried.


You go kill the hardest content in the game, with 19 other people, You can kill one of the three bosses one time each week. You prob. need minly gear from that DHT +6 or any other M+ to be able to kill the last 3 bosses of the current endgame in mythic raiding. This cus you simply wont have, even if clearing Mythic EN each week, a gear that keeps up with the gear from the spamming of +6 content OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

I hope you see the problem now.

The problem is YOU and your guild we have said that like 10 times already

[ShiyoKozuki]

Raiders who want to raid log and ignore the entire game should be ignored entirely by the dev team.

Sorry, but you're not a MMO player. You're a raid logger. This is a MMORPG, not a raiding simulator.

DEAL WITH IT.

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Topics like this are why we ended up with an expansion like WoD where there was nothing to do outside of raiding.

Exactly. These type of people need to be ignored by the dev team. Listening to them just ruins the entire game.

[saeros]

The fact that rewards have been spread out across the entire game at end game is better for most people. This is a deliberate design and a very specific reaction to the raid-or-die design of past expansions which you seem to be anxious to return to and was a catastrophe in Warlords. Your post demonstrates pretty clearly that the problem you see is a social problem and not a game design problem. You want to compete with those that can play more so the answer is to either devalue non-raid content or gate it further by limiting the amount you can run it. It's not that game this time around and with any luck we won't return to that again.

yes. ofc we want this.
this kind of game should not promote endless grinding.
and it didn't for the last 10 years, so i don't get why you are all upset and surprised that some people don't like the endless grinding.

[Rakoth]

yes. ofc we want this.
this kind of game should not promote endless grinding.
and it didn't for the last 10 years, so i don't get why you are all upset and surprised that some people don't like the endless grinding.

You haven't played this game for 12 years if you think that. Hardcore progression has always come at a cost.

This is the same problem we had in Vanilla but with consumables. You didn't even have character progression from a grind (like AP or Mythic+) you simply had to farm tubbers, flasks, dark iron, essences and all that crap for crafted resist gear, consumables during the raid.

This is what it means to be bleeding edge, it hasn't really changed since Vanilla. All WoD did was give you everything from your garrison, so you actually didn't need to do jack.'

I settled to be "good enough" for my raid group. I don't enchant my gear (at 20k an enchant on the AH, no thanks), I use my alts to send mats to the guild bank, at the cost of AP on my current weapon, and I study my class.

[Jastall]

I don't think anyone is ''forced'' to do this unless they're in a super hardcore world first guild. In which case, they accept all the grinding that comes with it as far as I'm concerned.

Anyone else doesn't absolutely need to be on the top 1% when it comes to weapon traits. If they wanna grind until their eyes bleed, that's on them.

[Deleted]

Grind is NOTHING compared to vanilla

[shonist]

Thing is here to that its getting out of control.

When we was about to start HC raiding, it was said you should have 840+ and atleast level 14 in your artifact.
This sounds like super izi now, but in fact, with artifact research at like... nothing more or less, it still was needed to do put in a lil of effort. That was fine.

Now you will see guilds with a range from 38 to like 30 in artifact. This will just escalate. I already seen two really good players quit the game cus they just cba to do the grind thats needed - cus its not fun. The very top grinders are muttering about people beeing slackers. I can see this be a thing in....1 month maybe? TO others really feel the same.


Just login, do WQ, Random HC and a M+ here and there aint enough to keep up if you wanna stay relevant in a raid and try to perform your best. Thats totally ok tho that ppl put in most effort gets the most rewards. But then it could be about the one mining the most or herbing the most as well, thats just related to raiding as 5 man grinding content.

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What should the non raiders be viable to do, look at their ilvl when afk standing or killing criters? Lol. You are a funny guy you.

To get the best gear in the game you have to been able to attend and perform at high end raiding enviroment OR be really good at PvP.

Now you do not need to be a good player to get be best rreward. You only have to throw some acid in, freebase and grind the shit out of piss boring content.

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Problem with this is that you still would have to run the M+ that gave AP anyway.

You cant be so wrong man. please. whats wrong with you? :s seriously

[Etselion]

Git gud and you won't need all that extra AP and shit.

[shonist]

I don't think anyone is ''forced'' to do this unless they're in a super hardcore world first guild. In which case, they accept all the grinding that comes with it as far as I'm concerned.

Anyone else doesn't absolutely need to be on the top 1% when it comes to weapon traits. If they wanna gring until they're eyes bleed, that's on them.

can ppl hear this guy already and stop all this nonsense thread.

[Notdev]

Raiders who want to raid log and ignore the entire game should be ignored entirely by the dev team.

Sorry, but you're not a MMO player. You're a raid logger. This is a MMORPG, not a raiding simulator.

DEAL WITH IT.

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Exactly. These type of people need to be ignored by the dev team. Listening to them just ruins the entire game.

Or they could have done what any of the 4 other expansions (including vanilla) did. WoD and Legion are 2 extremes, there is a middle ground.

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Grind is NOTHING compared to vanilla

The grind is basically endless so far. People who played 10+ hours a day since the start of the expansion aren't half done with their artifacts, and thats only on the AP front.

[Rogalicus]

I don't think anyone is ''forced'' to do this unless they're in a super hardcore world first guild.

Do you need to be in world first guild if you want gear with good stats for your spec and not masterymasterymastery shit from raids, which are downgrades even if they're 15 levels higher than what you wear?

[saeros]

Or they could have done what any of the 4 other expansions (including vanilla) did. WoD and Legion are 2 extremes, there is a middle ground.

i'm starting to think that they are trolling.
i don't believe that they really don't remember tbc, wotlk, cata...

really guys, we all know wod was bad, but there was something before it. believe me