I like to raid - I do not like beeing forced to do other content to be viable

[Notdev]

Really they dont care? When you were happy as a pig in shit from raid logging in wod because the developers had the supreme insight to fuck every non raider over so you wouldnt feel put out were you concerned about the number consistent compalint theirs nothing left to do wod is raid or die? This is rich. Raiders arguing about other peoples selfish demands hurting the game. Har har har

I hated WoD. Legion is far better. I enjoy it a ton. But that doesn't mean that I can't criticize it, and that any time I criticize WoW I'm complaining.

[IceMan1763]

Again the choices are pretty much stop being a progression raider or quit for people who don't have significant non raid time to play.

And many people, including me, have chosen to quit and many more will over the next few months.

I have said many times before... in this xpac you literally cannot effectively Mythic raid if you have a job. Well, I mean you can kill some bosses but you certainly won't be competitive with players/raids who average 40 hours per week on their char OUTSIDE of raiding.

[Nitros14]

Not really. They cried about being forced to run dailies. They cried about being forced to cap valor. They cried about being forced to run 4 versions of the same raid.

None of that was even remotely close to as bad as the AP farm and being obligated to run 30 mythic pluses a week. And do your dailies too. And spend six hours farming herbs a week.

People could previously work full time and be optimal for raiding. No more.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Raiding needs to be removed from MMO's already. It's the worst and least fun part of them.

[Notdev]

And many people, including me, have chosen to quit and many more will over the next few months.

I have said many times before... in this xpac you literally cannot effectively Mythic raid if you have a job. Well, I mean you can kill some bosses but you certainly won't be competitive with players/raids who average 40 hours per week on their char OUTSIDE of raiding.

I wouldn't go that far. We've got quite a few people in guild with full time jobs, families, and social lives who are nearing 35 or at 35.

[Nitros14]

Raiding needs to be removed from MMO's already. It's the worst and least fun part of them.

Raiding is the only fun thing in the game. It's too bad you have to do all the unfun shit like mythic plus to be optimal for raiding now.

[IceMan1763]

I wouldn't go that far. We've got quite a few people in guild with full time jobs, families, and social lives who are nearing 35 or at 35.

I would go that far. I don't doubt some people are at 35 Traits with full outside of WOW lives.

However, it's not the Traits alone that will affect a group of players like we're discussing... it's the lack of looting opportunities at BIS legendaries, high TF procs, AND AP on top of those two which all combine to make the environment incredibly challenging for the group to progress.

[SidFwuff]

For the 80th time, it has nothing to do with "tryhard raid leaders". It has to do with trying to do what you can to help your guild and not wanting to lose your spot because someone else played more outside of raid and grinded more gear/ap than you.

Okay.

It's about wanting to be helpful, and not wanting to be benched because someone else put more time than you in areas that aren't about raiding.

So why shouldn't people that want to grind the gold for an enchant be allowed to enchant their neck?

What's so wrong about someone putting a gem into the socket? Why can't an alchemist farm some starlight roses to bring a flask to raid night?

Oh.

Your'e talking about Artifact Power and Mythic+ runs...? Maybe you should have said something like this:

"For the 80th time, it has nothing to do with "tryhard raid leaders". It has to do with Bliz allowing me to play what I want to play outside of raid so that I can do more than others and go to raids, but at the same time not letting others do more than what I want to do so I don't get replaced."

It's a bit rough, but I think the message is clearer.

[Jastall]

For the 80th time, it has nothing to do with "tryhard raid leaders". It has to do with trying to do what you can to help your guild and not wanting to lose your spot because someone else played more outside of raid and grinded more gear/ap than you.

And "compensating for raids lackings" again, some of these traits/gear are literally required to kill some of these bosses. Unless Guarm is nerfed no one is killing him without most of their guild with 35+ traits. The world first guilds had this gear/AP already when they started.

I'd like to see how steadily a guild that does absolutely nothing but raid progresses.

As far as a guild that didn't farm resist gear/consumables in vanilla progressed?

As far as a guild that didn't spam Heroics or farm PvP gear in BC progressed?

As far as a guild that... well you needed nothing to down Naxx25, but it's also called the easiest and worst raid tier by many.

As far as a guild that didn't farm Valor and Heroics in Cata?

You get my point. Add the daily glut in MoP or the Apexis in WoD if you wish. There's always been a ton of farm required to raid at the peak level. If you're progressing in Mythic Guarm now, you're at that peak level. You're the 1%. Well, part of that is grinding, like it always was.

[Shammyrock]

Why does Blizz have to guess at where the middle ground lies. Why should the majority get less because a minority can't help themselves/are dictated to by their RL?

Rather have too much to do and pick the stuff I want to do than have little and be stuck doing stuff I don't really want to (or quitting)

[Notdev]

Okay.

It's about wanting to be helpful, and not wanting to be benched because someone else put more time than you in areas that aren't about raiding.

So why shouldn't people that want to grind the gold for an enchant be allowed to enchant their neck?

What's so wrong about someone putting a gem into the socket? Why can't an alchemist farm some starlight roses to bring a flask to raid night?

Oh.

Your'e talking about Artifact Power and Mythic+ runs...? Maybe you should have said something like this:

"For the 80th time, it has nothing to do with "tryhard raid leaders". It has to do with Bliz allowing me to play what I want to play outside of raid so that I can do more than others and go to raids, but at the same time not letting others do more than what I want to do so I don't get replaced."

It's a bit rough, but I think the message is clearer.

Those "grinds" pale in comparison in terms of effort and time commitment to the constant and never ending AP/m+/legendary grind.

- - - Updated - - -

As far as a guild that didn't farm resist gear/consumables in vanilla progressed?

As far as a guild that didn't spam Heroics or farm PvP gear in BC progressed?

As far as a guild that... well you needed nothing to down Naxx25, but it's also called the easiest and worst raid tier by many.

As far as a guild that didn't farm Valor and Heroics in Cata?

You get my point. Add the daily glut in MoP or the Apexis in WoD if you wish. There's always been a ton of farm required to raid at the peak level. If you're progressing in Mythic Guarm now, you're at that peak level. You're the 1%. Well, part of that is grinding, like it always was.

Those "grinds" pale in comparison in terms of effort and time commitment to the constant and never ending AP /m+/legendary grind.

The fact that a grind exists is not the issue. The fact that the grind of this nature exists is the issue. At this point it is literally impossible to do all you can to progress your character. That was no the case in ANY of those scenarios.

Again, guys, I have plenty of time to play WoW, I'm at 35 traits and have no intention to quit, but I feel for those who have limited time to play, and understand why they would quit.

[Glorious Leader]

you really can't understand the difference between what is an alternative and what is the system right now?

wow, i hope you're trolling

I can understand the difference you'd like it to be. That is to say not actually competing with raiding at all. A non alternative. The current design IS an alternative. I have many many issues with that alternative but the fact that YOU or raiders in general feel compelled to do it is a sign that it works. In fact it's so good it's "forced" that dude to quit raiding hahahahahahah

[Geehbee]

The lottery system keeps the 90% casual subscribers who make up the vast majority of WoW addicted and logging on. It's great for business.

[saeros]

Okay.

It's about wanting to be helpful, and not wanting to be benched because someone else put more time than you in areas that aren't about raiding.

So why shouldn't people that want to grind the gold for an enchant be allowed to enchant their neck?

What's so wrong about someone putting a gem into the socket? Why can't an alchemist farm some starlight roses to bring a flask to raid night?

because there is a limit to that, and ALL raiders are fine with limited farming to enchant, gold for flask ecc...
you can only use one flask, and guess what, all raiders bring their flasks.
you can't put 5 enchants on the neck, and guess what, all raiders come to the raid with perfectly enchanted gear.
also you can buy those things, why? because they perfectly know that otherwise nobody would be ever prepared for a raid.

the ap/m+ farm, instead, is endless.
really, is not that hard to understand why it is different.

and game was like that for 10+ years, so pretending that is was wrong and nobody liked it is simply trolling.

[Eapoe]

Why does Blizz have to guess at where the middle ground lies. Why should the majority get less because a minority can't help themselves/are dictated to by their RL?

Rather have too much to do and pick the stuff I want to do than have little and be stuck doing stuff I don't really want to (or quitting)

They have to guess because they are trying to make a game that appeals to everyone, which is hard to do going 1 extreme or the other. Talking about this same topic with guildies the other day and it's a very hard thing to achieve. 1 way would be to make the AP gains much bigger depending on difficulty, something along the lines of 1 mythic boss awarding roughly what a player would earn over a day or 2 in WQ's, with heroic/normal rewarding the same. As it lies now, 1 mythic raid boss equals roughly a m+6 run, something that is much easier to do and is guaranteed at the end of the run, which getting AP from a boss in raid does not always give any. This would allow players who "just want to raid" the means to do so without feeling forced to do everything in the world or grind endless m+. Add a cap to how much you can earn in a given day or week from m+, and the issue is solved even further. Or just put a weekly cap on what can be earned total thru a week with the amount also scaling with AK. Don't make it so low as to devalue doing more than 1 m+, but enough that casuals who only do WQ/low m+ wouldn't get too far behind.

[ddsad2212]

More curiosity but whats the progression level are you currently playing at? I mean I assume 7/7m 3/3 hc but what sort of world ranking? I don't see any guilds pushing this stuff out side the top 200. And going above that level of progression min maxing is sort of required frankly.

[Notdev]

Another problem with the grindiness.. the top guilds put a world's worth of effort into the grind that is the subject of this thread more than your average 7/7M guild. They already had an obscene amount of gear from M+, and likely 35 traits when ToV started. They are already were the level that your average 7/7M guild will be at in 4-8 weeks after that. So Blizzard needs to make the bosses obscenely hard so they still pose a challenge to the decked out world first guilds. Which, unless they're nerfed, make them nigh impossible for the world 200-1000 type guilds. No longer will gear/AP be a sufficient nerf to the instance to sustain progression. They will have to actively nerf the bosses if they don't want the world 200+ guilds being completely brick walled - the way most of them have been on Odyn.

I am fully expecting the typical "lol they did it, you can too, git gud" responses, but again.. in the past 10 years, this wasn't an issue.

(somewhat related, we've put in 2 nights on him and have gotten him to 40%, wouldn't consider him a brick wall yet)

[Aggrophobic]

Are you kidding? There was never anybody out in the world in WoD

I know, just like now.
The world is empty.

[Egregious]

Ahahhahaha thats fuckinf awesome. Are you serious? Yoi hated the other content and the reward behind it so much it caused you to quit the content you enjoyed? LAMO HAHAHHA working perfectly. Provide an alternative to raiding and watch people leave.

Yes. I couldn't enjoy the content I wanted without being bogged down in other, less enjoyable content. It got to the point where the majority of my time was outside of content I preferred. Seems a pretty predictable outcome given the circumstance.

I'm not quite certain exactly what it is you find so amusing. The legendary system is shit, the M+ reward system is far too open ended, Titanforged is a shittier version of Warforged, tertiary stats are still ridiculous. They just continue to add ludicrous features and further obfuscate planned character development on even a semi-hardcore schedule.

I used to raid even more aggressively than I do/did. I dropped down in US ranking to 30-50 in order to avoid irritating split raids -another "feature" of the game I hate. Seems that's an eventuality that is harder and harder to avoid, even with 1 additive raid. To add on top of that M+ farming til your blue in the face, daily hubs with repetitive as fuck quests (not like they've ever been interesting after week 1), and ridiculous "not mandatory" mandatory Legendaries and the game looses its luster quickly.

It is to the point where you can no longer play in the bracket I want to play in without being "forced" (jk, you really are forced) to do these inane, redundant, exhaustive, and fucking downright unenjoyable things just to stay relevant.

- - - Updated - - -

None of that was even remotely close to as bad as the AP farm and being obligated to run 30 mythic pluses a week. And do your dailies too. And spend six hours farming herbs a week.

People could previously work full time and be optimal for raiding. No more.

Yeah, but that's hard for people like Glorious Leader to understand.

- - - Updated - - -

You get my point. Add the daily glut in MoP or the Apexis in WoD if you wish. There's always been a ton of farm required to raid at the peak level. If you're progressing in Mythic Guarm now, you're at that peak level. You're the 1%. Well, part of that is grinding, like it always was.

What everyone is saying, which you apparently cannot hear, is it has never involved this much time to be that competitive. For that matter, it has never involved this much time to be moderately competitive.

InB4, "Oh, well you didn't play the game back then." Sorry, I did. My first toon was made day 4 of WoW and I've raided in every instance, save Naxx 40, this game has ever produced.

[araine]

And many people, including me, have chosen to quit and many more will over the next few months.

I have said many times before... in this xpac you literally cannot effectively Mythic raid if you have a job. Well, I mean you can kill some bosses but you certainly won't be competitive with players/raids who average 40 hours per week on their char OUTSIDE of raiding.

might be a good thing to have some mythic guilds quit the game if they demand you to farm content for 100hrs a week jsut to stay competitive