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  1. #1

    7.1.5 new PTR MM actually BUFFED from live

    So with the new PTR build, it looks like they have increased Aimed shot by another 50%, basically a 100% increase form live. Also, marked shot does its full damage without the need for vulnerable and sidewinders still applies vulnerable to all targets...We got a huge buff.

  2. #2
    How is this a huge buff ? you just said "It does its full damage without the need for vulnerable"
    WIth what you're implying, the only buff in your wording is the fact it does normal damage without adding vulnerable?

    So it does 100% damage at all times, instead of only when target is debuffed (all the time if you're not bad) ?
    or are you explaining the change wrong?

  3. #3
    Going from 250% weapon damage to 300% is not a 50% buff. It's a 20% buff.
    Finbez
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological
    if only WoW had come out when I was a teenager. Back then online gaming consisted of text-based MUDs....I could type "kill orc" faster than any of my competition, brosephs, and played a mean giantman cleric.

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire Promethieus's Avatar
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    Sidewinders has always applied vulnerable to all targets. From what I know of on the PTR Sidewinders isn't affected by Hunter's Mark. So you can't Sidewinders -> Marked shot all targets it hits when you have Hunter's Mark like on live. I could be wrong though. It does look like they're increasing Marksmanship's single target by a good amount though so that's good.

  5. #5
    On live, marked shot required you to have vulnerable up on the target to do full damage. Now, you don't need vulnerable on your target for marked shot to do full damage.

    Aimed shot is just getting a huge buff, and sidewinders still works the same way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    On live its 202% weapon damage and 250% was from the previous build. (Referring to finbezwaz)

  6. #6
    Isn't live Vulnerable with Patient Sniper a 150% increase to MS damage? That means it is doing 250% * 2.5 = 625% weapon damage on live since you never use MS without Vulnerable up. Now it only does 450% weapon damage, so it is clearly around a 28% nerf to MS damage. Aimed shot damage is going up, especially since with the new Patient Sniper will make it really powerful near the end of the Vulnerable debuff, but it will still feel very clunky with having to time Aimed Shot at the perfect time. Also, if you're still going to take sidewinders, you get 15 less focus than on live, which means you'll get even less Aimed Shots off. Overall it's a definite nerf to AoE, and possible buff to single target if you play it correctly.

    Of course this is assuming you still use PS + SW. I wouldn't be surprised if SW is no longer best for single target.

  7. #7
    Immortal SL1200's Avatar
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    If we did get buffed, good. It's about time we got our day in the sun.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by l10f View Post
    Isn't live Vulnerable with Patient Sniper a 150% increase to MS damage? That means it is doing 250% * 2.5 = 625% weapon damage on live since you never use MS without Vulnerable up. Now it only does 450% weapon damage, so it is clearly around a 28% nerf to MS damage. Aimed shot damage is going up, especially since with the new Patient Sniper will make it really powerful near the end of the Vulnerable debuff, but it will still feel very clunky with having to time Aimed Shot at the perfect time. Also, if you're still going to take sidewinders, you get 15 less focus than on live, which means you'll get even less Aimed Shots off. Overall it's a definite nerf to AoE, and possible buff to single target if you play it correctly.

    Of course this is assuming you still use PS + SW. I wouldn't be surprised if SW is no longer best for single target.
    I think it's very likely we won't be using sidewinders in most situations at this rate. The reduced focus generation is a massive hit to single target. It's going to be more or less as blizz intended: only use it on spread-out cleave. Marked shot getting an overall nerf is reasonable when we're getting what is seemingly a large buff to an ability that is 55%+ of our patchwerk damage.

    Personally I'm looking forward to not playing with sidewinders since I have the boots. Who knows? Maybe the boots will be what pushes non-sidewinders over the top at this point.(Arcane shot procs the boots whereas sidewinders does not)
    Finbez
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological
    if only WoW had come out when I was a teenager. Back then online gaming consisted of text-based MUDs....I could type "kill orc" faster than any of my competition, brosephs, and played a mean giantman cleric.

  9. #9
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    Can someone throw the math together for Marksman to figure out if that is a buff or a nerf overall?

  10. #10
    How is it a nerf? There was nothing but damage increases and with the way PS now works, and Aimed shot buffed, its only going to be that much better.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Youn View Post
    Can someone throw the math together for Marksman to figure out if that is a buff or a nerf overall?
    Aimed Shot - buffed to 300%
    Marked Shot - buffed to 450%
    Sidewinders - total focus nerfed to 35, vulnerable application reapplied (so overall nerf)
    Piercing Shot - nerfed to 1000% damage
    Sentinel - 2 aoe hunter marks in 20 sec, not sure if it'll be useful
    Multi-Shot - buffed to 75%

    Overall I'd say buff with some minor nerfs.

  12. #12
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by darahion View Post
    How is it a nerf? There was nothing but damage increases and with the way PS now works, and Aimed shot buffed, its only going to be that much better.
    He's probably asking because MS got nerfed on sidewinder builds, even on ST.

    The AiS buff however is so huge (and AiS is basically 40%+ of our damage), that it's a ST buff for sure.
    The question is if PS is really getting the full Vulnerable benefit, that thing hits for 2million+ with trueshot already. Even with the base damage nerf, it's still going to be 3 million hit then.

    Well, let's see how things turn out, I'm pretty sure that they'll not leave *all* the skills like that, I'm pretty sure we won't see a 300% AiS.
    Last edited by mmoc96d9238e4b; 2016-11-30 at 01:44 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaar View Post
    Aimed Shot - buffed to 300%
    Marked Shot - buffed to 450%
    Sidewinders - total focus nerfed to 35, vulnerable application reapplied (so overall nerf)
    Piercing Shot - nerfed to 1000% damage
    Sentinel - 2 aoe hunter marks in 20 sec, not sure if it'll be useful
    Multi-Shot - buffed to 75%

    Overall I'd say buff with some minor nerfs.
    Marked shot is just basically no more need for vuln to do its full damage.
    Piercing shot benefit from vuln now, so a buff.

    Are they changing war belt of sentinel army? coz this looks like it will be useless on pure ST fight next patch.

  14. #14
    Are you guys seeing something I'm not? Marked Shot on live does 625% weapon damage with Patient Sniper Vulnerable (which should be up for every marked shot every time), doesn't it? On the PTR its "full damage" of 450% WD, indifferent to Vulnerable, is a major nerf, at least as far as that one ability is concerned.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by darahion View Post
    How is it a nerf? There was nothing but damage increases and with the way PS now works, and Aimed shot buffed, its only going to be that much better.

    Marked shot no longer benefits from vulnerable, so it will be doing less damage (450%) than it does on live (625% with vulnerable) and since marked shot is most of our aoe damage, it is a nerf to aoe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ynai View Post
    Marked shot is just basically no more need for vuln to do its full damage.
    Piercing shot benefit from vuln now, so a buff.

    Are they changing war belt of sentinel army? coz this looks like it will be useless on pure ST fight next patch.
    It's not full damage on marked shot, 28% less than live

  16. #16
    Deleted
    Worth mentioning that this only applies to the current SW builds.
    For a build that's not using SW (lol) it's actually a buff because you couldn't always have MS benefit from it's own Vulnerable.


    This isn't really a AoE nerf either btw, because you'll theoretically do more AoE damage without SW, but you'll have a harder time hitting all the mobs.

    I'm really hyped about how our stat-priorities get shifted in 7.1.5.
    Both Haste and Crit should rise.
    Last edited by mmoc96d9238e4b; 2016-11-30 at 01:59 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by SL1200 View Post
    If we did get buffed, good. It's about time we got our day in the sun.
    What are you smoking... Hunters have almost always been a top DPS spec, right up there with mages

    How many blizzard employees does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
    None, its working as intended!

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Finbezwaz View Post
    I think it's very likely we won't be using sidewinders in most situations at this rate. The reduced focus generation is a massive hit to single target. It's going to be more or less as blizz intended: only use it on spread-out cleave. Marked shot getting an overall nerf is reasonable when we're getting what is seemingly a large buff to an ability that is 55%+ of our patchwerk damage.

    Personally I'm looking forward to not playing with sidewinders since I have the boots. Who knows? Maybe the boots will be what pushes non-sidewinders over the top at this point.(Arcane shot procs the boots whereas sidewinders does not)
    Are you sure arcane shot procs the boots? I don't have them myself so can't test, but friend of mine just tested them for me and reported it didn't.

    As for the sidewinders focus loss being huge, meh, I call bullshit. Over a 3:30 fight on Ursoc this week I used 25 sidewinders. That's 1250 focus, or 25 aimed shots.

    My focus spendage, on the other hand, was:
    64 aimed shots (3200 focus).
    26 marked shots (780 focus).
    9 barrages (540 focus).
    9 wind bursts (180 focus).

    For a total of 4.7K focus. Sidewinders regen made up for about 27% of my focus regen. Losing 15 focus per sidewinder would cut 375 focus, or about 8% total focus gain.

    Now keep in mind that our new tier set reduces the focus cost of our shots during trueshot come Nighthold, *and* the tier set + likely BiS trinkets also both skyrockets trueshots uptime.

    Add to this that they caved and let Sidewinders apply Vulnerable again with this build, and I'd be *extremely* surprised if Sidewinder doesn't stay the best choice for both single target and AOE. Remember that Arcane shot only gives 5 focus per global cooldown spent; You essentially need to spend 7 globals to get the same focus from a single sidewinder. 6 globals that could be spent casting OTHER shots if you have the focus - focus we will have because 75% of our regen is passive, and new set bonuses gives us a plethora of extra focus. Add the benefit of a higher vulnerable uptime on top, and you're looking at something that isn't even a competition.

    As for "real-talk" numbers;

    Marked shot on live = 250% * 2.5 with vulnerable up (assume it's always up), so 625%.
    Marked shot on ptr = 450% flat. No other benefits. Nerf of 28% power. Probably fair considering it's 100% free cleave with sidewinders.

    Aimed shot on live = 202% * 2.5 with vulnerable up (assume it's always up), so 505%.
    Aimed shot on ptr = 300% * 2 with vulnerable up (assume it's always up if we stick to sidewinders), so 600%.

    Add Patient sniper to Aimed shot - 15% more dmg every sec, assume you get a shot at 3 and 6 seconds on average (two shots per vuln) and you're looking at 2.45 and 2.90 multipliers, averaging aimed shot out to have a 2.675 multiplier on 300% damage for 802.5% damage. That's an increase in aimed shot damage of about 38%, at what we can probably expect as a best-case scenario.

    On guarm mythic, the two best ranked MM hunters without zevrims/war belt (so as to not skew the numbers in favor of either shot due to a legendary you can't assume everyone has) had respectively:

    Waruth: 53% aimed, 17% marked shot damage (59M and 19M).
    Igloo: 51% aimed, 20.7% marked shot damage (58M and 23.6M).

    Applying the numbers, aimed shot would do ~81M dmg for both, and marked shot losing 28% damage would result in losing about 5M and 6M damage, respectively. That's a gain of 16-17M damage. Note that this is obviously with Sidewinders giving 50 focus per, though - so let's be realistic and cut about 10 aimed shots worth of damage from the 4 min fight (500 focus), with their avg aimed shot hit at 750K, so 7.5M per person.

    We're left with a theoretical gain of ABOUT 8-9M, give or take. That's an added 35K singletarget DPS - which would put both of them at or above 500K singletarget dps. People with war belt would see even bigger increases, obviously.

    All in all, it's pretty much what I expected; Our dps is being bumped up by about 7.5-8% before legendaries, and our AOE is being neutered A LOT.

  19. #19
    Deleted
    Marked Shot Rapidly fires shots at all targets with your Hunter's Mark, dealing (250% 450% of weapon damage) Physical damage and making them Vulnerable for 7 sec. Vulnerable Damage taken from Marked Shot and Aimed Shot increased by 100% for 7 sec. Hunter - Marksmanship Spec. 30 Focus. 40 yd range. Instant.

    So it was 250% before got to 450% BUT not effected by vulnarable (wich also got n erved from 150% to 100%) wich means:

    Live: 250% with vulnarable(150%) 625%
    Last PTR Build: 250% with vulnerable(100%) 500%
    Now: 450% no vulnerable

    As we could ALWAYS have vulnerable up on the target when we hit Marked Shot, its now nerfed to the ground and doesnt synergize with anything in our rotation.
    How could someone see a buff in this?

    Sentinel also now is no where an interesting mechanic you could use it to burst aoe when needed now theres a gap of 10sec in between ... you know how many trshpacks may die in 10 seconds? the second charge will hit nothing in so many situations its just not fun and just another thing in our rotation we have to wait for.

    Patient Sniper now grants no extra focus wich we allready starve on live. wich means even more time we have to autoshot...

    And Aimed shot in the last second of vulnerable .... yeah for sure ... traveling time of our shots will accidently may hit it 1 from 1000shots from wich 500 will hit the target after the vulnerabe debuff got off.

    why make a specc that feels clunky, even more clunky?
    because almost everybody hated your idea of a melee hunter with a polearme? Its just like giving only 2 speccs to DH ... you neve came up with the idea for a range specc?
    what is wrong with you guys? no ideas anymore? is that why everybody leaves blizz now? nothing new to come up with? i doubt it because there are some of these genius minds that do come up with ideas that are just mindblowing! let them be free and do some good stuff

    Thx blizz made my choice to reroll my once beloved survival hunter as a marksman clear .... no way
    Last edited by mmoc56effbac4f; 2016-11-30 at 02:38 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by BillWumsen View Post
    Marked Shot Rapidly fires shots at all targets with your Hunter's Mark, dealing (250% 450% of weapon damage) Physical damage and making them Vulnerable for 7 sec. Vulnerable Damage taken from Marked Shot and Aimed Shot increased by 100% for 7 sec. Hunter - Marksmanship Spec. 30 Focus. 40 yd range. Instant.

    So it was 250% before got to 450% BUT not effected by vulnarable (wich also got n erved from 150% to 100%) wich means:

    Live: 250% with vulnarable(150%) 625%
    Last PTR Build: 250% with vulnerable(100%) 500%
    Now: 450% no vulnerable

    As we could ALWAYS have vulnerable up on the target when we hit Marked Shot, its now nerfed to the ground and doesnt synergize with anything in our rotation.
    How could someone see a buff in this?
    It was never 500% on ptr. It was always unaffected by vulnerable on ptr.
    Nobody says marked shot was a buff. They toned down our over-the-top extreme free cleave/AOE, and buffed our singletarget through aimed shot instead.

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