I like to raid - I do not like beeing forced to do other content to be viable

[araine]

You can feel it's a great change, that's fine. Maybe for a portion of the WoW playerbase, it is. But that's not me. I work 40 to 60 hours a week and I dislike coming home to a game that makes me spend another 40 to 60 hours a week worth of maintenance just to do something that I spend 8 to 10 hours a week doing. It bothers me. I never had a problem with this in previous expansions but Legion just feels like an endless treadmill of boring inconsequential content that ultimately results in a very unfun experience for me.

Best expansion by a mile.

[Deleted]

oh, another one that can't read.
try again.
"he can completly avoid it with no impact on the contet he cares about."
with no impact
on
the content
he cares about

really wtf is wrong with all of you, it is getting ridiculous trying to argue .-.

Then he is barking up the wrong tree because the only meaningful impact is from AP gains and that's AP system in general at fault not M+ dungeons.

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You can feel it's a great change, that's fine. Maybe for a portion of the WoW playerbase, it is. But that's not me. I work 40 to 60 hours a week and I dislike coming home to a game that makes me spend another 40 to 60 hours a week worth of maintenance just to do something that I spend 8 to 10 hours a week doing. It bothers me. I never had a problem with this in previous expansions but Legion just feels like an endless treadmill of boring inconsequential content that ultimately results in a very unfun experience for me.

It doesn't *make* you do anything. It's something you force upon yourself. You are still free to play the game you want.

[saeros]

Then he is barking up the wrong tree because the only meaningful impact is from AP gains and that's AP system in general at fault not M+ dungeons.

actually we are talking about the reward system in general, and in include ap, bis gear, and legendaries.
next time try to read some posts before trying to argue pls.

[Relapses]

It doesn't *make* you do anything. It's something you force upon yourself. You are still free to play the game you want.

Considering the only I want to do is raid, yes, it does make me do shit I don't want to do. I am absolutely repulsed by WQs and you need to do them to stay competitive. I don't mind Mythic+ nearly as much as WQs but even then I'm not particularly enthused. You're right that I can play the game if I want but since I can't do the only thing I play the game to do, I've quit. I realize that's a personal choice and I'm not saying that Blizzard should change their entire design philosophy to accommodate me, but I am hopeful they at least tone down some of the grindiness in the future.

[Deleted]

actually we are talking about the reward system in general, and in include ap, bis gear, and legendaries.
next time try to read some posts before trying to argue pls.

I did read them. They are enforcing a self made choice and complaining that Blizzard doesn't cater to only them but a wide variety of players. They suffer in no way or form from it but are discontent that players that made different choices reach different goals. While there are some faults within the current reward system they are certainly far from what they are describing.

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Considering the only I want to do is raid, yes, it does make me do shit I don't want to do. I am absolutely repulsed by WQs and you need to do them to stay competitive. I don't mind Mythic+ nearly as much as WQs but even then I'm not particularly enthused. You're right that I can play the game if I want but since I can't do the only thing I play the game to do, I've quit. I realize that's a personal choice and I'm not saying that Blizzard should change their entire design philosophy to accommodate me, but I am hopeful they at least tone down some of the grindiness in the future.

You want to do competitive raiding which is not the same as raiding. It has been a grind since game launched and not much has really changed in that aspect. You are right though that to stay competitive the grind is more time consuming due to AP. I'm not aiming for top places and just getting the curve is fine for me so I don't suffer from it but I can see how the ones racing would.

[Relapses]

I did read them. They are enforcing a self made choice and complaining that Blizzard doesn't cater to only them but a wide variety of players. They suffer in no way or form from it but are discontent that players that made different choices reach different goals. While there are some faults within the current reward system they are certainly far from what they are describing.

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You want to do competitive raiding which is not the same as raiding. It has been a grind since game launched and not much has really changed in that aspect. You are right though that to stay competitive the grind is more time consuming due to AP. I'm not aiming for top places and just getting the curve is fine for me so I don't suffer from it but I can see how the ones racing would.

I've been a competitive raider for the last three expansions. I have every single Cutting Edge from MoP through WoD. I could raid in a Heroic guild and maybe I'd have fun, but I'm one of those people who pushes to be the best and I just cannot invest the time necessary to play at that level at the moment. I understand some people like this change, but I don't particularly care for it and it's turned me off from the game... at least for the moment.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

Why does Ion Hazzikostas hate Mythic raiders so much?

Does he think we are all basement dwellers just counting the days to suicide?

You can do Mythic raiding and have a healthy life outside of it. Or, at least you could.

[Vulgrym]

You're not really forced but I understand how it can feel that way.

I see this response a fair bit, usually from those not engaged in Mythic raiding.

What's overlooked is that raiding is a team endeavor and, therefore, subject to the dynamics that come with working or playing in any organization.

Assuming the team is producing a positive experience and helping you meet goals, you feel beholden to its members. In the context of the Legion meta that surrounds raiding, this feeling of responsibility is challenged by what is effectively uncapped personal progression.

It used to be that you could play the game regularly outside of raids (eg. dailies, valor etc.) and as long as you were skilled and disciplined at the actual activity, you could schedule a hobby around it.

Now there's this weird stratification of players who fall all along a curve that is measured by your "legendary-loot-eligible-events-per-hour" and artifact trait investment.

It kind of sucks.

[Pantalaimon]

No its because all the casuals cry since wotlk that they want the same gear then the good players! That is the only fucking reason in my opinion....

Uh huh, sure buddy. I'm sure it has nothing to do with players complaining since Wrath that dungeons lose all purpose (with the occasional expansion's currency grind) within the first month of every expansion. Allowing gear upgrades to still be obtained in dungeons actually ensures that there is a reason to have dungeons as content outside of currency farm and leveling.

As far as good players go, I consider players who excel in fast and difficult runs in smaller groups as having more skill than those in a large raid group. In raid groups you can allow other raiders in your role help carry you through dpsing or healing through an encounter & making sure people stay alive. In 5 mans there is part of this problem as well for sure, but it is much less in comparison, is less of an issue. When you start getting in higher Mythic+ dungeons if that single healer or tank screws up you're probably going to wipe right away & no Brez raid warning is going to save that run unless you're doing excellent on time. Also in 5 mans pretty much all dps need to be using their utility (if they have it) throughout the entire run on trash. During raids you aren't always going to be having dps do stuff other than dps. More than likely you will have a few dps doing a lot more of the seals, dispelling, movement buffs, etc. The rest of the dps are following mechanics or tunnelling the boss.

The content that allows so many people in one group to sit back and just do the bare minimum feels like the less hardcore content.

[Nikkej]

And no, AK do not "fix the problem some what".

AK only makes it worse, and makes low level mythic content still the best source for AP.

[Deavane]

I see this response a fair bit, usually from those not engaged in Mythic raiding.

What's overlooked is that raiding is a team endeavor and, therefore, subject to the dynamics that come with working or playing in any organization.

Assuming the team is producing a positive experience and helping you meet goals, you feel beholden to its members. In the context of the Legion meta that surrounds raiding, this feeling of responsibility is challenged by what is effectively uncapped personal progression.

It used to be that you could play the game regularly outside of raids (eg. dailies, valor etc.) and as long as you were skilled and disciplined at the actual activity, you could schedule a hobby around it.

Now there's this weird stratification of players who fall all along a curve that is measured by your "legendary-loot-eligible-events-per-hour" and artifact trait investment.

It kind of sucks.

Well said.

[Sierra85]

forced to play the game? it is a game. that is the key word you are missing.

[Deleted]

And no, AK do not "fix the problem some what".

AK only makes it worse, and makes low level mythic content still the best source for AP.

If it wasn't as good would you complain about being forced to do low level world quests for AP?

cause once you cross that line you are in the realm of why are people that put more time/effort in performing better and thats a dangerous place

[Relapses]

Now there's this weird stratification of players who fall all along a curve that is measured by your "legendary-loot-eligible-events-per-hour" and artifact trait investment.

It kind of sucks.

This 10,000%.

[Wildmoon]

They made raiding more competitive in Legion. If you wanna raid, you have to keep your AP relatively current. Rewards people who play more, but AK fixes that somewhat.

I raid Heroic just fine with artifact point being behind the curve quite a lot. As long as you have enough ilv, it's fine.

On the topic, the system is designed so that if you want to progress your characters then there will always be ways to do that. The side effect is that people who feel that they will fall behind if they stop will feel that they are forced to do all these contents nonstop.

There are few solutions to this problem and it's never going to be perfect solution. Despite the proposition that there could be middle ground, the reality is not that simple. If you go back to the cap system then the game will have the "log in to finish everything then nothing left to do" problem. Another solution is for players themselves to change their attitude to better control themselves but that's is obviously a hard thing to do for some people.

Proposing middle ground is something that is easier said than done. The point is what is the middle ground that will be accepted by most players. One argument is that if you are going to be competitive at the top end then that's what is demanded of you. I tend to agree with this argument because if you really want to become the best then you have to put in extraordinary amount of effort. If you can't do that then you should be content with lower level of content. I gave up raiding high end and mostly do heroic raiding which satisfies me just fine.

[Nikkej]

If it wasn't as good would you complain about being forced to do low level world quests for AP?

cause once you cross that line you are in the realm of why are people that put more time/effort in performing better and thats a dangerous place

Yes, and no. I am totally on the side that ppl that puts the most effort and time in should be the ones thats most rewarded.

But atm its people that puts the most time into something thats lowlevel and shit easy that gets the best rewards, rather then the ones doing the hardest content.

Thats where the problem is, nowhere else.

[WhatIsLegion]

Yes, and no. I am totally on the side that ppl that puts the most effort and time in should be the ones thats most rewarded.

But atm its people that puts the most time into something thats lowlevel and shit easy that gets the best rewards, rather then the ones doing the hardest content.

Thats where the problem is, nowhere else.

So if you think the hardest content should award the best gear do you think +15s should award better gear than Mythic EN baseline? Because +15s are harder than anything I've done in Mythic EN.

[Wildmoon]

Yes, and no. I am totally on the side that ppl that puts the most effort and time in should be the ones thats most rewarded.

But atm its people that puts the most time into something thats lowlevel and shit easy that gets the best rewards, rather then the ones doing the hardest content.

Thats where the problem is, nowhere else.

The rule has always been that people who are willing to do anything to gain the edge whether hard or easy. will be the ones who are the most rewarded.

[Deleted]

Yes, and no. I am totally on the side that ppl that puts the most effort and time in should be the ones thats most rewarded.

But atm its people that puts the most time into something thats lowlevel and shit easy that gets the best rewards, rather then the ones doing the hardest content.

Thats where the problem is, nowhere else.

mmmm

I would rather argue it from a boosting perspective where you have to find someone and just take them for their keystone instead of someone you know or would rather take
also the fact that the artifact power reward is split into tiers so like 6-9 give the same

but there really isn't a choice about your point specifically as people who cant do top tier stuff or cant raid certain times need access to AP too

So if you think the hardest content should award the best gear do you think +15s should award better gear than Mythic EN baseline? Because +15s are harder than anything I've done in Mythic EN.

ye sure why not

make it give a tonne of artifact power too so people actually have reasons for doing it other than a one time achieve cuz it is harder than mythic bosses

[ShiyoKozuki]

Blizzard's always had a nasty habit of 'forcing' players to do content. Not encourage, but outright make impossible unless you do it. Legion seems to have taken it to a whole new level. PvE, PvP, achievements (flying), class hall campaigns, odds are you're going to do something you don't like/want to do this expansion because something you do like/want to do is gated behind it.

I personally don't see the merit in this type of design since unless you're a well-rounded player (which most aren't) you're bound to be unhappy. The last thing anyone should want are players joining in an activity who sincerely don't want to be there and are making the experience unpleasant for everyone else, but that's the result this system produces.

This. EXACTLY THIS.
I don't understand why they think it's ok to force people to play and do something they don't want to do, thus ruining it for the people who WANT to be there.
They need a psychology major on their dev team.

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You should be. As far as im concerned the monopoly thtlat raiding has on the best gear should die. Tier should be on a vendor.

Agreed.
This games player base is too raid or die centered. It's a MMO, not a raiding simulator.