Just a heads up, even after 7.1.5 drops, some classes will be at the top...

[Hashcrypt]

while others are at the bottom of charts and parses.

It's an inescapable fact that there will be a top dps spec and a bottom one. You might be playing one of those classes come 715!

Or one of your classes might be "just" middle of the pack. Again, another inevitable certainty that we should all come to terms with now.

Even though these should be obvious facts, I truly believe some don't understand this concept. The very fact that one of their specs might be towards the bottom means that their class is trash or is broken.

Hopefully these quick facts will help some of you lost souls out.

Have a good Tuesday!!

[Deleted]

Cool story bro.

Infracted

[Gaidax]

http://darklegacycomics.com/558

[trm90]

Unfortunately most players are too fucking dense to realise this and will blame losing their imaginary raid spots in imaginary top guilds on class balance

EDIT: Another thing to note, WClogs have been a double edged sword - helps guilds improves, but on the other hand, the average WoW player has no idea how statistics works and gets the completely wrong idea

[Kazuchika]

Unfortunately most players are too fucking dense to realise this and will blame losing their imaginary raid spots in imaginary top guilds on class balance

EDIT: Another thing to note, WClogs have been a double edged sword - helps guilds improves, but on the other hand, the average WoW player has no idea how statistics works and gets the completely wrong idea

It really is amusing how everyone on mmochamp likes to portray themselves like they're in a top guild yet it's the same guilds getting world firsts every tier

[Dahti]

I DON'T PUG M+

But if I did, I'd hate to be one of the weaker 5 man specs. Selection bias based off WCL is a real thing, ask an ele shaman that tries to pug M+. Despite ele being absolutely faceroll amazing in M+ they get overlooked because they generally were awful at 840 in EN.

There will be plenty of specs that continue to face these negative perceptions, some right and somep wrong. In some cases not accepting the crapshoot called balancing is the right thing to do.

Generally, trying to pug content as a bottom tier spec leads to much frustration. In some cases (pre-buff frost mage) the answer was respec/reroll or don't pug, and it should never have been that bad.

Each spec had hundreds of post from beta/ptr and too much feedback was (and still is) ignored. Leaving us with legion, possibly the best expac with the worst class balance.

[aziras]

Another thing to note, WClogs have been a double edged sword - helps guilds improves, but on the other hand, the average WoW player has no idea how statistics works and gets the completely wrong idea

This has always been the case.

Something as simple as a mathematical formula is too complex for the majority of players. For example, dps follows this formula:

DPS: a[playerskill] * b[class_max_potential] * c[gear_coifficient] * d[mechanic_specific_variance_with_class_skills]

a, b, c, and d are variables that Blizzard can use for balance. They can use those to tweak the importance of the various parts, but can never completely remove them.

Most half-competent theorycrafters knows that theoretic max is one thing. But that not all factors are equal. In most real-life situations each of the parameters present itself as a "baseline" for theoretical performance.

A super-pro player can only do so much with a non-geared class that is gimped by design. But might still be better than a bad player with optimal gear and an overpowered class.

When people complain about their raid spots it is typically because the raid leader checks the logs and find that the 5% missing to down a boss could be gained by players that are lowest on performance. Then they look at two things: 1) players that are below their class potential (whoever did the best log with that class I guess) and 2) players that are playing classes that are just below the average (because swapping those for an average player with a better class is also an improvement).
Of course it is easier to blame the class balance when you get benched because you are not playing up to your best. But at the end of the day, the raiding guilds that are at a level where they will bench a really good player because that player plays the wrong class are really few. Bar the occasional lunatic raid leader in a wannabe guild.

[Deleted]

I've always said that middle of the pack is generally the best place to be.

Top of the pack makes you a very tempting target for sweeping nerfs.

[Deleted]

while others are at the bottom of charts and parses.

It's an inescapable fact that there will be a top dps spec and a bottom one. You might be playing one of those classes come 715!

Or one of your classes might be "just" middle of the pack. Again, another inevitable certainty that we should all come to terms with now.

Even though these should be obvious facts, I truly believe some don't understand this concept. The very fact that one of their specs might be towards the bottom means that their class is trash or is broken.

Hopefully these quick facts will help some of you lost souls out.

Have a good Tuesday!!

What people want is there to be less difference between top and bottom % wise, unless there is a good reason it there to be so.

[Chrno]

I DON'T PUG M+

But if I did, I'd hate to be one of the weaker 5 man specs. Selection bias based off WCL is a real thing, ask an ele shaman that tries to pug M+. Despite ele being absolutely faceroll amazing in M+ they get overlooked because they generally were awful at 840 in EN.

There will be plenty of specs that continue to face these negative perceptions, some right and somep wrong. In some cases not accepting the crapshoot called balancing is the right thing to do.

Generally, trying to pug content as a bottom tier spec leads to much frustration. In some cases (pre-buff frost mage) the answer was respec/reroll or don't pug, and it should never have been that bad.

Each spec had hundreds of post from beta/ptr and too much feedback was (and still is) ignored. Leaving us with legion, possibly the best expac with the worst class balance.

Which is why i think combat logging / damage meters in any new MMO comming out should not be used.
I don't mind them being here in WoW (i combat log myself and use it allot!)

But for the community feel and pick up groups it would be better to not have the data we have.

[Deleted]

Which is why i think combat logging / damage meters in any new MMO comming out should not be used.
I don't mind them being here in WoW (i combat log myself and use it allot!)

But for the community feel and pick up groups it would be better to not have the data we have.

But then people would just do the same thing, but with anecdotal bullshit instead of numbers.

[KaPe]

But then people would just do the same thing, but with anecdotal bullshit instead of numbers.

If anything, it would be even worse. In such environment, class can objectively suck and be the worst, but there aren't any hard numbers to prove it. Sure, you could take 5 players from "best" class and easily cruise through content, and then 5 players from "worst" class and wipe forever - but then it becomes "well, the first guys are just so much more skilled" and so on.

Either way, even if numbers were obfuscated, developers would still have to work toward balance. Nothing would really change, except making it harder to spot obvious problems.

[BiggestNoob]

Balance, so difficult a monkey could do it.

In other news, Blizzard has yet to hire a single monkey.

[Deleted]

Balance, so difficult a monkey could do it.

In other news, Blizzard has yet to hire a single monkey.

10% difference from bottom to top is not rocket science.

And yet even though bliz have received more money than it took to land a man on the moon, they can barely mansge 50%.

Am i asking too much? Is it really unrealistic to expect bliz to hire some decent designers?

[schwarzkopf]

What's worse - half the class/specs will perform at below average levels.

Blizzard just refuses to address this travesty of maths.

[Meiffert]

What's worse - half the class/specs will perform at below average levels.

Blizzard just refuses to address this travesty of maths.

Not so. Half the classes/specs perform below the median level.
It is entirely possible to have all but one spec to perform above average.


On a more serious note, most people overestimate their ability: when I top the meters, it's because I'm good. If I'm at the bottom it's because my class sucks.
They will always complain about both real and perceived imbalance and both of those will always be present.

As long as different classes have different mechanics and interactions with stats, they will have different scaling. It is then impossible to balance for them for both dungeons and normal raids and high level mythic raids because of different gear.
Even if you chose to only balance for say mythic raiding, are you balancing for world first progression in X ilvl, the typical mythic progression in X + 10 ilvl or farm in X + 20 ilvl?
This is not even taking into consideration different types of fights, like single target, cleave, aoe, dps while moving and things like pvp balance are completely outside of the scope here.

[schwarzkopf]

Not so. Half the classes/specs perform below the median level.

Median is a class, average is a value of that class.