Enough with the melee hate

[RelaZ]

Sub has been a braindead spec since day 1, people thinking Sub required skill in the past is hilarious because it reminds me of Titan Grip warriors in S5 who claimed their skill allowed them to 1shot clothies or Ret paladins in Wotlk aswell when they were killing people in single 123 rotation without wings cd.

And what's your arena experience that makes your opinion even slightly relevant on this matter? Historically Sub did require skill - much unlike for example FDK. Why? Because Sub was not just a spam damage and win spec but rather one that relied on utility, cc and coordination.

Don't lump old sub into the same category as mongoloid damage spamming melees of Legion (and WoD to some extent).

[Karamin]

You do realize hunters have been stripped of almost all mobility right?

You have double charge and heroic leap, hunters (MM) have... disengage? You can't even MOVE while casting aimed shot anymore.

[Pantelija]

And what's your arena experience that makes your opinion even slightly relevant on this matter? Historically Sub did require skill - much unlike for example FDK. Why? Because Sub was not just a spam damage and win spec but rather one that relied on utility, cc and coordination.

Don't lump old sub into the same category as mongoloid damage spamming melees of Legion (and WoD to some extent).

It never required skill despite what you rogue players like to think unless you really think playing 2v3 is considered "skill" as RMP, rogues in past had more tools in PvP than few other classes combined and it didnt require any real skill to use just fire it up and go.

Legion has the worst PvP balance of all expansions and its showing in a more obvious way, people dont believe me when i say melees are majority of PvPers right now so i propose to you people to make a caster level it to max (it will take few days at most) and do PvP against NON BOTS. (Hint make a non-mage)

[RelaZ]

Pillars require skill? Like running in a circle waiting for CDs? That is news to me.

Isn't this the whining coming from casters atm? WAAAAAH too many gap closers.... WAAAAAH too much dmg.... WAAAAAH too many stuns/kicks/cc/lolIDKbbq. This is what all casters sound like on this forum. Constant whining about melee and how they press so many buttons but still die. If you want to stand still and cast go pve and stop crying about pvp.

This is laughable, wow. Can you really be this incompetent? I bet you think 4-6 melees just going at it just standing on top of eachother spamming damage abilities is somehow more skillful than using LoS, coordination and trying to CC?

The complaints is more like "Blizzard literally made this game about who can do more dps instead of who can strategically outmaneuver their opponents" whereas everyone (from WoD and onwards) who called for CC / utility reduction are bads who have less than 2.2k experience (or have it from tbc when the pvp design was shit).

Everyone who can't understand that LoSing, coordination of CC and utility abilities is much much more skillful than current Legion (spam damage until dampening kills someone) is just a bad player.

If you don't understand how CC makes this game better (no, not MoP levels CC - and certainly not Legion levels of CC) then yes, you are sadly clueless.

I'm a melee player myself and for 7+ years bad players have been screaming "CC is SOOO BADDDDD" and now finally with WoD and especially Legion Blizzard caved - guess what, it's the worst expansion ever PvP-wise. PvP class design is just horrible, because it's all "spam damage and win caveman style". Particpation has dropped to an all time low, this has a lot to do with it.

[Bearilla]

This is laughable, wow. Can you really be this incompetent? I bet you think 4-6 melees just going at it just standing on top of eachother spamming damage abilities is somehow more skillful than using LoS, coordination and trying to CC?

The complaints is more like "Blizzard literally made this game about who can do more dps instead of who can strategically outmaneuver their opponents" whereas everyone (from WoD and onwards) who called for CC / utility reduction are bads who have less than 2.2k experience (or have it from tbc when the pvp design was shit).

Everyone who can't understand that LoSing, coordination of CC and utility abilities is much much more skillful than current Legion (spam damage until dampening kills someone) is just a bad player.

If you don't understand how CC makes this game better (no, not MoP levels CC - and certainly not Legion levels of CC) then yes, you are sadly clueless.

I'm a melee player myself and for 7+ years bad players have been screaming "CC is SOOO BADDDDD" and now finally with WoD and especially Legion Blizzard caved - guess what, it's the worst expansion ever PvP-wise. PvP class design is just horrible, because it's all "spam damage and win caveman style". Particpation has dropped to an all time low, this has a lot to do with it.

I never whined about CC (I am melee). That being said, if other classes have multiple tools for CC then I should too. LoSing isn't the issue with pillars. The issue is pillar humpers that use it for CDs. PvP participation is down due to the PvE grind. Even if you want to pvp you better pve for that gear and ap.

What is laughable is all of these casters/ranged whining and saying their classes take so much skill to play. I assume these people are adults (I am) yet they get on a forum to talk about how much skill it takes to play their toon in a game. When I start to play a game I don't think to myself "damn, I hope this games makes me press tons of buttons and it takes a lot of skill for me to play it." I understand you don't want to just hit one button but 20 buttons over 10 buttons does not make a game more fun for me. I would also never boast about how my class takes more "skill" than anyone else's. I do like to be good at games so no matter what I play I will put in the time. But I won't complain about someone in a shooter beating me with a shotgun if I am using an assault rifle.

[Soisoisoi]

Just curious but can you point out when Sub took skill to play (hardmode: point out when rogues took skill to play)?

Like I said, it's relative to the other specs. The things you can do with the likes of Shadow Dance for peels, or having to line up damage, vs just out-right doing the damage. Nothing special for today's standard's but just go watch all the old Rogue videos from top Rogues.

[Deleted]

they deserve all the hate they can get

as it is right now it is quite literally world of meleecraft

casters need their cc back, that's been pruned away.. strangely melee cc has been left virtually untouched

[Pvp guy]

Pretty sure melee run around pillars too. If you're not you should try it out, it'll really help with those 1 mill glacial spikes youre all complaining about. It also has a 3 second cast time and requires 5 frost bolts to set up so there's ample time to get ready. Personally tho, I just pop AMS and kill the Mage before he can get the 5 frost bolts off. Also pretty sure I can put out equal if not more damage in the same time it takes to cast 5 frost bolts plus glacial spike. From my Mage pov it's not all doom and gloom like some say. It does get frustrating facing double melee and being tunnelled to death but good teammates make a big difference. In current gameplay I'd say there's quite a bit higher skill floor for successfully playing caster since there's more multitasking, cc coordination, positioning, focus bullshit and damage to do while doing it all on the run while you get tunnelled and kicked to death. Melee damage is unmitigatable and instant, as are their cc's which is a big upside that makes life easier imo. Their positioning is usually decided for them based on who the kill target is and not los'ing the healer. There's also less multitasking since there's less cc chains put together as well.
I'm sure if melee could be disarmed half the fight and still land kills they'd be all up in here bragging about how much skill is required to play them since they it would be so much more difficult for them to do their job. And they'd be right. And maybe then they'd also get how casters feel.

[Deleted]

Playing Frost mage myself and you pretty much nailed it.

[Deleted]

You do realize hunters have been stripped of almost all mobility right?

You have double charge and heroic leap, hunters (MM) have... disengage? You can't even MOVE while casting aimed shot anymore.

Aside from aspect of the cheetah, hunter mobility is the same. You do realize that BM hunter is the most mobile ranged spec of the game? More than fire mage? Even MM is pretty mobile (hint: don't play MM like you play it on raids). MM artifact provides a movement speed increase passively. Also aimed shot on the move changes absolutely nothing when you are being snared or slowed down, you were never able to kite people because of this cast on the move, its because of disengage talented which is very powerful.I do miss aimed shot castable while moving but it was more of a "catch the target" rather than escaping people.

Traps does not equal mobility, its a CC. You will get them soon enough and will be able to slow down people on a whole swimming pool again+ the pvp talent which gives back bump trap.

So no, hunters are fine, if you can't kite melee aside from monks and rogues/Feral, you are pretty bad

[Bearilla]

It does get frustrating facing double melee and being tunnelled to death but good teammates make a big difference. In current gameplay I'd say there's quite a bit higher skill floor for successfully playing caster since there's more multitasking, cc coordination, positioning, focus bullshit and damage

Isn't this what casters want? Higher skill caps so they can get on this forum and talk about how much skill it takes and how they are superior video gamers compared to melee? Well you heard it here first!!!! In the current gameplay the skill cap is higher than ever! So you casters should start putting in the work now and stop whining on the forums.

No... I would never brag about my spec compared to another. I may talk about my skill at a game (apparently I have none since I am melee (: ) but I would not get as granular as saying melee>caster. I see this as a preference. All classes/specs shine in one way or another. If you make the right decisions in a fight you will win. If you don't win then try something else because what you are doing obviously isn't working.

they deserve all the hate they can get

as it is right now it is quite literally world of meleecraft

casters need their cc back, that's been pruned away.. strangely melee cc has been left virtually untouched

I think I predicted this QQ.... even after nerfs you are back here whining some more. Too funny!

[Deleted]

This is laughable, wow. Can you really be this incompetent? I bet you think 4-6 melees just going at it just standing on top of eachother spamming damage abilities is somehow more skillful than using LoS, coordination and trying to CC?

The complaints is more like "Blizzard literally made this game about who can do more dps instead of who can strategically outmaneuver their opponents" whereas everyone (from WoD and onwards) who called for CC / utility reduction are bads who have less than 2.2k experience (or have it from tbc when the pvp design was shit).

Everyone who can't understand that LoSing, coordination of CC and utility abilities is much much more skillful than current Legion (spam damage until dampening kills someone) is just a bad player.

If you don't understand how CC makes this game better (no, not MoP levels CC - and certainly not Legion levels of CC) then yes, you are sadly clueless.

I'm a melee player myself and for 7+ years bad players have been screaming "CC is SOOO BADDDDD" and now finally with WoD and especially Legion Blizzard caved - guess what, it's the worst expansion ever PvP-wise. PvP class design is just horrible, because it's all "spam damage and win caveman style". Particpation has dropped to an all time low, this has a lot to do with it.

I don't know what you are smoking but Legion pvp is still filled with CC everywhere, so much free CC that people can just waste them with no problem.

I guess you mean that casters should have more CC, for example frost mage stun? Because frost mages need that, 4 snares, blink or shimmer, insta burst is not enough. No thanks, CC should be pruned a lot more actually and just keep it to a minimum. Utility abilities are far more interesting than just CC, especially stuns. There is no skill involved in "timing" your stun, lets not nourish any delusion typical of 2K2 people.

[Thelxi]

OP seems seriously misinformed. Mages can't just kill any melee, hunters are absolutely not untouchable. Why even try and discuss something you clearly have no experience with.

[Deleted]

they deserve all the hate they can get

as it is right now it is quite literally world of meleecraft

casters need their cc back, that's been pruned away.. strangely melee cc has been left virtually untouched

Warlocks have their fear, mages polymorph and nova, moonkins have cyclone in pvp talents and typhoon or a stun or a root, shaman have hex still, shadowpriest have fear (but lost the disarm).

So aside from priest, what have they lost exactly? Frost mage just lost their broken 5 seconds ranged stun and thank god its gone.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Ranged have a severe advantage by default.

[Saberstrike]

OP seems seriously misinformed. Mages can't just kill any melee, hunters are absolutely not untouchable. Why even try and discuss something you clearly have no experience with.

Have you tried playing a melee vs a bm hunter recently?

Have you tried playing a melee vs a mage?

I guess they pruned disengage, cheetah, concussive shot, frost nova, scorch on the move, shimmer or blink that removes stuns, chill on all mage spells and ice block while I wasn't looking. If those things are true then yes, I have no experience with it. Wait, what's that? All those spells are still in the game? The only thing they've pruned is traps, and those are coming back?

Huh. What do you know, I guess we're playing a different game!

[Kaeth]

Ranged have a severe advantage by default.

The advantage to have to sit still and wait for long casts to complete to deal any damage in PvP?

If you want to stand still and cast go pve and stop crying about pvp.

Instead, show off your impressive mobile ranged damage toolkit (pruned to the ground in Legion) and tickle that melee as he eventually closes the gap on you regardless and kills you in seconds. Then "go PVE" like so many PVPers have already chosen to do in this expansion.

• Melee need to be in melee range to do any damage.
• Ranged can deal damage anywhere sub-40y (more in some cases).

While this list may still apply for mages and hunters, most ranged dps have had their mobile damage tools pruned into nothingness in this expansion and the one before it. While the "arms race" in the past was a competition between melee struggling for uptime and ranged kiting and nuking, we're now in an environment where...

• Melee uptime is noticeably higher. Melee gap closers and CC were not pruned or were in some cases buffed. Ranged lost CC and escape tools.
• Ranged (outside of frost and other outlier specs) can deal barely noticeable damage while on the move. Try nuking down a DH or rogue on the run as a moonkin.
• Ranged must "turret" and wait for 2.5s+ cast times to deal meaningful damage, allowing melee to close the gap without even using an actual gap closer.
• When that gap is closed, melee can button mash to victory and outdamage those 2.5s+ ranged casts with instant melee attacks.

There are reasons for the melee hate in Legion PvP. Stop cherry picking mages and hunters as the counterargument.

[Snackpack]

Any spec with a cast time on spells will always have a disadvantage. That's why the dot/instant cast range specs are seen as the most viable, while the others have a pretty rough time.

[Deleted]

The advantage to have to sit still and wait for long casts to complete to deal any damage in PvP?


Instead, show off your impressive mobile ranged damage toolkit (pruned to the ground in Legion) and tickle that melee as he eventually closes the gap on you regardless and kills you in seconds. Then "go PVE" like so many PVPers have already chosen to do in this expansion.



While this list may still apply for mages and hunters, most ranged dps have had their mobile damage tools pruned into nothingness in this expansion and the one before it. While the "arms race" in the past was a competition between melee struggling for uptime and ranged kiting and nuking, we're now in an environment where...

• Melee uptime is noticeably higher. Melee gap closers and CC were not pruned or were in some cases buffed. Ranged lost CC and escape tools.
• Ranged (outside of frost and other outlier specs) can deal barely noticeable damage while on the move. Try nuking down a DH or rogue on the run as a moonkin.
• Ranged must "turret" and wait for 2.5s+ cast times to deal meaningful damage, allowing melee to close the gap without even using an actual gap closer.
• When that gap is closed, melee can button mash to victory and outdamage those 2.5s+ ranged casts with instant melee attacks.

There are reasons for the melee hate in Legion PvP. Stop cherry picking mages and hunters as the counterargument.

I'm not going to play the devils advocate but moonkin can deal a lot of instant burst with starsurge and moonfire spam thanks to that pvp talent (like moonkins always do in pvp: jump and spam). Where is the astral power coming from you will ask? You have a talent that lets you use 2 intant lunarstrikes (soon 3 in PTR). Also you have a talent on a 1.5min CD that allows you to reduce by 70% all interrupts. +bear form (yes its very useful to survive), +cyclone+typhoon+roots. None of those are long casts.

Fullmoon rotation only works when you play as a group just like destro

The only melee who is pure cancer for most casters is sub rogues. Not because they are op (they still are a pain though) but because they stunlock and have cloack, vanish, teleport.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

The advantage to have to sit still and wait for long casts to complete to deal any damage in PvP?

Fortunately for you, many ranged don't even have long casts. You don't DPS in PVP like you would in PVE. Even for ranged with long casts, its never as simple as that. You have escapes, CC, and survival spells. I've played both a ranged and melee throughout the game. As melee you get to spend a lot more time just running at people than you'd guess.

Ranged just aren't liking the change. "Noticeably higher uptime" doesn't equate to melee being OP or ranged being UP. And you're wrong about melee prunes, that DID occur.