Protection legion Discussion

[Deleted]

We're behind other tanks on pretty much all bosses in TEN Mythic. Only notable exception is Cenarius, and that's because DHs/DKs struggle tanking the Dragons.

We might be behind other tanks but something tells me we're basically where Blizzard wants tanks to be. They stated at Blizzcon that they still think that tanks deal too much damage so I wouldn't be surprised at another tank-wide damage nerf.

@Stallion I'm confused what you're trying to say with that picture, is Devastator somehow the new go-to talent on the ptr?

[Deleted]

We might be behind other tanks but something tells me we're basically where Blizzard wants tanks to be. They stated at Blizzcon that they still think that tanks deal too much damage so I wouldn't be surprised at another tank-wide damage nerf.

@Stallion I'm confused what you're trying to say with that picture, is Devastator somehow the new go-to talent on the ptr?

I think he implies devastator will be the default for "casuals" and never surrender will be the choice for the top tier elitist min maxer.

I personally think that NS offers an interesting playstyle, but you start looking like a BM monk. In the heat of battle, especially if you have Hpalas and MW monks in your raid, I doubt you will get to that sub 50% hp mark often enough to benefit from the talant.

On M+ you might be able to pull it off, but it just seems risky in that scenario to me.

[server22]

what's the haste req for new 7.1.5 (handicapped) devastator build?

[Valech]

stil woulnd take vengeance talent if revenge is tied to the gcd it makes IP usage clunky.

you do not understand. the rotation is entirely the same as now, but instead of pressing focused rage off gcd and then devestate on gcd, you just press revenge. it has the benefits of focused rage AND fishes for a shieldslam procc.

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New rotation incoming:

https://abload.de/img/warriorflowchartq0bnp.png

That change to Revenge would have been a good idea on live. Together with Thunder clap being forced into our core rotation + resetting Shield Slam and Focused Rage removed, it just dumbs down the rotation too much imho. If you spec into Devastator, the rotation can get pretty much automized as described in the screenshot... Sure, single target you would want to use Shield Slam with higher priority than Revenge probably but come on, that's almost the only reason not to spam all 3 buttons at once now.

I'm afraid the class shifts towards a "press whatever is popping up" style. The changes are a big buff in terms of dps though, both single and multi target which was needed.

What exactly do you mean by outperformed in that chart? In terms of damage? In terms of survivability?

[Toybox]

what's the haste req for new 7.1.5 (handicapped) devastator build?

Can't see it changing much. A few pages back there was a small discussion on how many devastates to melee attacks we used during a normal raid fight, and the mele attacks just about won out. We're looking at a very similar number of Shield Slam resets, so I wouldn't expect too much to change with HR & SB uptime.

[Stallion]

@Stallion I'm confused what you're trying to say with that picture, is Devastator somehow the new go-to talent on the ptr?

I tested Devastator on PTR and sadly it is the talent resulting in the highest sustained dps, even though it should not be because (coupled with the fact that now every ability can reset shield slam) it simplifies the play style to a level where it almost does not make a difference anymore which ability you press. That's why I implied you can just swoosh over all three hotkeys repeatedly, using whatever is ready and probably still perform at least 80% perfectly compared to paying attention what to press. And still you probably do more dps than playing perfectly without it. It would be okay as a talent for people that struggle with the standard rotation to help them but it's too powerful for that. If you don't spec it and you play with a harder rotation you will do less dps. That effectively forces us into taking a talent that I don't consider fun at all if I want maximum effiency at anything that's not hardcore content.

In hardcore progress content I expect people to still spec Indomitable like before because the bigger health pool is something we just can not lose. But as soon as your survivability is not permantenly threatened like in M+ below 11 you are punished instead of rewarded if you don't take Devasator to dumb down the rotation by subpar dps and even more clunky Vengeance Revenge weaving because you have another ability competing for globals.

Edit: I can't say how much of a boost Devastator is for survivability. It certainly does feel like you are gaining more rage with it due to the passive AND using Thunderclap and Shield Slam a bit more often. It's probably worse than the 25% stronger IP from Indomitable alone (ignoring health boost) and almost certainly weaker than Never Surrender for survivability but if it wasn't, it would be a no-brainer anyways.

[eksdra]

I tested Devastator on PTR and sadly it is the talent resulting in the highest sustained dps, even though it should not be because (coupled with the fact that now every ability can reset shield slam) it simplifies the play style to a level where it almost does not make a difference anymore which ability you press. That's why I implied you can just swoosh over all three hotkeys repeatedly, using whatever is ready and probably still perform at least 80% perfectly compared to paying attention what to press. And still you probably do more dps than playing perfectly without it. It would be okay as a talent for people that struggle with the standard rotation to help them but it's too powerful for that. If you don't spec it and you play with a harder rotation you will do less dps.

When you tested it on the PTR, was it against a dps dummy or a tank dummy? I'm concerned with my ability to dps while not actively tanking since Ultimatum was removed.

[Valech]

I tested Devastator on PTR and sadly it is the talent resulting in the highest sustained dps, even though it should not be because (coupled with the fact that now every ability can reset shield slam) it simplifies the play style to a level where it almost does not make a difference anymore which ability you press. That's why I implied you can just swoosh over all three hotkeys repeatedly, using whatever is ready and probably still perform at least 80% perfectly compared to paying attention what to press. And still you probably do more dps than playing perfectly without it. It would be okay as a talent for people that struggle with the standard rotation to help them but it's too powerful for that. If you don't spec it and you play with a harder rotation you will do less dps.

In hardcore progress content I expect people to still spec Indomitable like before because the bigger health pool is something we just can not lose. But as soon as your survivability is not permantenly threatened like in M+ below 11 you are punished instead of rewarded if you don't take Devasator to dumb down the rotation by subpar dps and even more clunky Vengeance Revenge weaving because you have another ability competing for globals.

Edit: I can't say how much of a boost Devastator is for survivability. It certainly does feel like you are gaining more rage with it due to the passive AND using Thunderclap and Shield Slam a bit more often. It's probably worse than the 25% stronger IP from Indomitable alone (ignoring health boost) and almost certainly weaker than Never Surrender for survivability but if it wasn't, it would be a no-brainer anyways.

I agree, that Devestator simplifies ("dumbs down") the rotation. I also could imagine, that Devestator nets the most damage output, which is a small concern but since I don´t hold damage output in such high regards as a tank it would be something I could live with.
What I don´t understand is why you and other people think, that the new iteration of vengeance makes our rotation clunkier. With a 30% chance for revenge to procc SS, the rotation is EXACTLY like on live servers. One filler devestate is replaced with thunderclap, the other filler devestate is filled with an unprocced revenge. All three can procc SS. In other words: Instead of putting rage into focused rage off gcd to lower the IP cost and use devestate on gcd to fish for a SS procc we now use revenge on gcd to do both: lower the IP cost AND fish foran SS procc. It´s the same. Or did I msiunderstand you?

[suprep]

I tested Devastator on PTR and sadly it is the talent resulting in the highest sustained dps, even though it should not be because (coupled with the fact that now every ability can reset shield slam) it simplifies the play style to a level where it almost does not make a difference anymore which ability you press. That's why I implied you can just swoosh over all three hotkeys repeatedly, using whatever is ready and probably still perform at least 80% perfectly compared to paying attention what to press. And still you probably do more dps than playing perfectly without it. It would be okay as a talent for people that struggle with the standard rotation to help them but it's too powerful for that. If you don't spec it and you play with a harder rotation you will do less dps.

In hardcore progress content I expect people to still spec Indomitable like before because the bigger health pool is something we just can not lose. But as soon as your survivability is not permantenly threatened like in M+ below 11 you are punished instead of rewarded if you don't take Devasator to dumb down the rotation by subpar dps and even more clunky Vengeance Revenge weaving because you have another ability competing for globals.

Edit: I can't say how much of a boost Devastator is for survivability. It certainly does feel like you are gaining more rage with it due to the passive AND using Thunderclap and Shield Slam a bit more often. It's probably worse than the 25% stronger IP from Indomitable alone (ignoring health boost) and almost certainly weaker than Never Surrender for survivability but if it wasn't, it would be a no-brainer anyways.

Ignoring the dumbed down rotation isn't this exactly what Devastator is meant to do? You do lose out on survivability to gain some DPS, I'd be very surprised if Devastator ended up doing less DPS (in which case, again ignoring dumbed down rotation, why would you ever take the talent?).

I get your point though that if you want DPS then this is the talent to go for and if you want more survivability then the others will suit you more, I think personally I'm completely OK with this. I'm definitely not for one that thinks one talent is king for everything and I should never have to change based whether content is easy or hard.

Unrelated I'm also happy with the change to revenge proccing SS, the spec feels much better now than before.

[Stallion]

serious question here. Was it really needed to buff the DPS tho ? ... i was able to pump out sick amounts of DPS already depending on a fight per fight basis, and how much rage i was able to pump into FR.

Most logs I compared Warriors with other tanks are M+ logs and in that niche Feral, Blood DK and Veng DH were consistently doing 260k+ on the same difficulty/affixes in which the top warriors did about 180k. That's about a 50% dps advantage and it's not to be disregarded if you are competing for timers.

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I'd be very surprised if Devastator ended up doing less DPS (in which case, again ignoring dumbed down rotation, would you ever take the talent?)

I personally wouldn't because I prefer a more challenging play style if it's rewarding. But it could have its niche for people that are fine having 80% effiency with 50% work required for example.

Losing the big Shield Slam hits by taking away Focused Rage and our dps being redirected so that each of our abilities hits roughly for the same amount is already something I don't like about the patch. There's no more excitement coming from a shield slam reset because you know you just got a dps spike by that proc. If our playstyle takes another hit in the fun department by a less interesting rotation, that's another reason for me to not like the changes.
I mean, without Focused Rage even single target Shield Slam won't be that much stronger than TC/Revenge anymore with the patch, except in terms of rage gen. In addition to that, what will be the difference between hitting Thunder Clap and Revenge? Both will do ~220k aoe damage. It will not be a big deal to mix them up post patch. Using Revenge with higher priority because you could get another proc makes sense, but so does using Thunderclap when it's rdy since you want to use it and fill the gap of its CD with the Revenge proc you have. You can argue both ways, there's just not going to be a lot of thinking required on what to press and I don't like this direction they are taking the spec.

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When you tested it on the PTR, was it against a dps dummy or a tank dummy? I'm concerned with my ability to dps while not actively tanking since Ultimatum was removed.

I tested it on the lesser Sparring partner in the class hall for single target. That guy seemed to be a bit buggy with me not parrying as much as I should and not dodging at all i think but not 100% sure.
I tested it on aoe dps both in two heroic lfg runs as well as in the class tank trial (that MoP thing with the waves). Here's some more information about it in a thread of mine on the official forums if you are interested in actual numbers: http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17614483639 I did the testing last week before the change to Revenge, keep that in mind.

@Valech: Yeah, you're right. It won't be a big problem to use Revenge for Vengeance for the reasons you stated but playing with it for the first time after being used to the live off-gcd version to trigger Vengeance just "feels" clunky. I'm not used to waiting for a global to finish if I have enough rage for Focused Rage (Revenge) / Ignore Pain and I want to use it now. It will get some time to get used to it and I would prefer an off-gcd ability on both ends of Vengeance but it won't be the end of the world. I also only tested the old patch with revenge not procing Shield Slam, it may feel less clunky with the change now, knowing that you're not compromising dps by weaving in Revenge.

[suprep]

I don't mind rewarding better play indeed, I'm just not sure how they would be able to achieve that with Devastator, if it's simply a talent that allows you to forego using Devastate and does the same DPS then literally no one would ever take it in their right mind as the other talents would provide a massive survivability boost on top of that, a pretty no-brainer there too.

[Stallion]

Yeah, for most people it would be useless except for beginners or people who aren't able to pull that dps with a harder rotation and can make use of a dps talent instead of survivability one because they do easy content or whatever. If it resulted in the same dps as perfect play without it, I would accept that because good people would get some survivability stuff on top by an additional talent. I heard that Demon Hunters have/had(?) a similar talent that received very back feedback in beta because most people found it boring but had to use it for optimal dps. The only reason why the problem may get overshadowed in case of prot warriors is because of another problem in our talents: Indomitable in the same tier being a hard requirement whose HP increase should be baseline. Devastator would be better off in a dps tier. Then if it wasn't such a strong mandatory dps increase, it could be regarded as a choice for people that get more use of it than from another dps talent. The other talents should however provide some advantage to those that can pull the same dps without Devastator. Imho that would be a much better place for it than being the mandatory choice for maximum dps as long as you can do fine without the survivability talents.

[Pachulius]

If devastator will be a goto talent, I'm quitting the game. Not playing a 2 button spec.

[Milocow]

now that revenge can reset SS i doubt devastator is gonna be as good as Indom/NS for survivability

[server22]

Got bracers yesterday , have the neck also and by the time i was happy with the buffs of neck and Indom talent position as it stands atm , now i hear that devastator is oneway talent pick in all cases except 10+ mythics and Mythic raiding...oh well... -_-

Can't see it changing much. A few pages back there was a small discussion on how many devastates to melee attacks we used during a normal raid fight, and the mele attacks just about won out. We're looking at a very similar number of Shield Slam resets, so I wouldn't expect too much to change with HR & SB uptime.

Does the CoS 10% autohit ring affects devastator now? if yes , i guess it should be core item for this spec?

[Senen]

now that revenge can reset SS i doubt devastator is gonna be as good as Indom/NS for survivability

Revenge resetting SS is probably a buff to Devastator tbh. You'll use more Rev, so less Dev, so Devastator gains some value.

[Stallion]

now i hear that devastator is oneway talent pick in all cases except 10+ mythics and Mythic raiding...oh well... -_-

Does the CoS 10% autohit ring affects devastator now? if yes , i guess it should be core item for this spec?

Well, you don't have to spec it but it seems to be more dps as long as you can survive fine without it. Unfortunately I don't have that ring, so I can't test it.

I'm really pissed about the nerf to secondary stats btw. I dropped from 24% Haste to 22%. It's going to be almost impossible to get 100% Shield Block uptime if that nerf stays. I have haste on every piece of my gear but trinkets, neck, belt and can't break 25%. We're close to "Items without haste aren't viable at all" already, with that change we probably are.
Meanwhile they say that they intend to balance secondary stats and making classes not rely on certain ones so much. They also try to give us an alternative to Heavy Repercussions by buffing Anger Management but we won't be able to take it even more so now that we have even less Haste. They remove Ultimatum which was responsible for about 80% of crit rating's value for the spec in a patch in which they try to promote the use of more crit rating. They just don't have any clue at all what they're doing.

Reading new patch notes has turned to comedy for me now. I'm watching them bring forward changes that make no sense / break important things because they have no clue about the classes, imagining how at Blizzard there's literally 1 "class fantasy" casual hero per class responsible for class design.

[Voyle]

If devastator will be a goto talent, I'm quitting the game. Not playing a 2 button spec.

You are currently playing a 2 button spec. When devastor comes out you have the choice of playing either a 3 or 4 button spec.

[Milocow]

did close to 50m damage in each test
881 ilevel with prydaz legendary and mannaroth bracers

devastator : 201k dps with 118k hps (28.9m healing, 9.29m from necklace and 1.84m from bracers)
duration : 4m3s

indomnitable : 165k dps with 132k hps ( 41.6m healing, 14.53m from necklace and 2.38m from bracers)
duration : 5m15s

they need to make the ragefree revenge proc last longer, found it expiring before i even had a chance to use it my indomnitable builds

was testing against the tiny-er tanking dummy in skyhold btw
not really accurate
devastator is quite strong maybe they should nerf the rage gain to 2-3 and damage per swing to 75% of a normal devastate damage

or they can move it to replace best served cold lol no one is gonna use that shit

[suprep]

devastator is quite strong maybe they should nerf the rage gain to 2-3 and damage per swing to 75% of a normal devastate damage

I think the issue is if they do nerf the damage then this talent literally serves no purpose other than those that don't want a complicated rotation, It'll be effectively a wasted talent for the experienced warriors. The % health is a huge deal breaker on Mythic Raids (imagine doing Mythic Helya /Guarm without Indomitable? No chance).

I can see myself using Devastator in lower level Mythic+ dungeons and Heroic raid bosses/easy Mythic bosses, though of course if they nerf it then that talent is useless and in my eyes Blizzard will have failed designing the talent row (I realise currently we always take Indomitable, but then at least we HAVE a reason to pick something else).

I mentioned it earlier but it seems a nice tradeoff between DPS and survivability and I'm personally okay with having that, sure the DPS is stronger but you give up your 'tankiness' to some degree. I personally hope they leave it as is, perhaps introduce some filler spell to use with Devastator to reward better play (currently very dull) and punish if you do not.