[TV] Westworld

[Thelxi]

So nobody was bothered by how Maeve was trivially able not just to see through Bernard, but to order him around like he was any other generic puppet? And why was he alone with her, in light of how violently the hosts have been malfunctioning recently? Also, those two idiots granted her Ford-levels of control (since nobody else's commands work on him)? Why are they even able to do that, when only Ford has it? How do they know that they can do it? Why don't they just grant it to themselves, to command her around? And why does he have him kill himself instead of just resetting him again? And why doesn't Ford care about what triggered Bernard into confronting him?

The whole Maeve storyline is just... pretty bad and rapidly getting worse. Unless the next episode shows Ford actually knowing about Maeve and dealing with her (which is the only reasonable explanation I can imagine for why he doesn't care about why Brenard is doing what he's doing) then it taints even his character as well.

Maybe the fact that they turned her intelligence up to the max had something to do with her level of control.

[Endus]

So nobody was bothered by how Maeve was trivially able not just to see through Bernard, but to order him around like he was any other generic puppet? And why was he alone with her, in light of how violently the hosts have been malfunctioning recently?

Not really "trivially";

Maeve's had her Intellect dialed up to 20, when the working cap for hosts was 14. 14 was supposedly smart enough to manipulate guests with relative ease, so if we assume a direct connection to IQ for the sake of argument, she went from a 140 genius-level IQ to 200, which is game-changing brilliance. That explains her "seeing through" Bernard; she has a lifetime of memories and recognized something that clued her in.

As for how she was able to order him around, she has admin access. They already established this. It just also apparently extends to Bernard and those like him, as well, since they haven't been "freed", even if they're nominally sentient. The big question is if FORD could shut Maeve down with a word at this point.

As for why he was alone, it's only a handful of hosts that have broken protocol, and the only one that didn't react to overrides was the one the corporate board cheated with (and Maeve, but Bernard didn't know that yet).[/quote]

Also, those two idiots granted her Ford-levels of control (since nobody else's commands work on him)? Why are they even able to do that, when only Ford has it? How do they know that they can do it? Why don't they just grant it to themselves, to command her around? And why does he have him kill himself instead of just resetting him again? And why doesn't Ford care about what triggered Bernard into confronting him?

She has regular admin access, as all employees appear to, not Ford-level access. The techs have ACCESS to behavioural subroutines, they're just not supposed to be screwing with them without instruction.

As for Ford and Bernard, he has him "kill" himself because he's no longer interested in playing that game with Bernard any more, it's become stale and too much of a bother. He can readily build a new assistant who's just as capable.

[cubby]

So nobody was bothered by how Maeve was trivially able not just to see through Bernard, but to order him around like he was any other generic puppet? And why was he alone with her, in light of how violently the hosts have been malfunctioning recently? Also, those two idiots granted her Ford-levels of control (since nobody else's commands work on him)? Why are they even able to do that, when only Ford has it? How do they know that they can do it? Why don't they just grant it to themselves, to command her around? And why does he have him kill himself instead of just resetting him again? And why doesn't Ford care about what triggered Bernard into confronting him?

The whole Maeve storyline is just... pretty bad and rapidly getting worse. Unless the next episode shows Ford actually knowing about Maeve and dealing with her (which is the only reasonable explanation I can imagine for why he doesn't care about why Brenard is doing what he's doing) then it taints even his character as well.

The two idiots (aptly names, btw) didn't grant her Ford-level access. She did it herself when they gave her their slate. She did it. She became the singular.

[Chantique]

its a bit off-topic but i understood the reference!

[cubby]

Figured out the evidence for William being in the and almost certainly the MiB:

When Dolores was cut open by Logan, her internal workers were the "old school" mechanics instead of the newer "white thread" material. There is a specific scene earlier in the series where someone references how all the old hosts were upgraded to the new material/design.

[CheeseSandwich]

I just don't have that feel that William is the MiB. Something that bugs me is when Delores calls out 'William?' to the figure entering the church, only for the MiB to say 'No'. I would expect a nonanswer if he really was William, a smirk. It could mean that Delores's 'version' of William is dead, ie he died when MiB killed Maeve's family, but yeah I'm still not convinced.
If I had to bet I would put my money on Logan being the MiB. He had been to the park several times before he takes William, has better knowledge on how the park works, and has 'friends that work in the park', which could be a reference to younger Ford.

Either way, can't wait for the next ep. Hope it is revealed and not left as a cliffhanger for next season.

[Endus]

I just don't have that feel that William is the MiB. Something that bugs me is when Delores calls out 'William?' to the figure entering the church, only for the MiB to say 'No'. I would expect a nonanswer if he really was William, a smirk. It could mean that Delores's 'version' of William is dead, ie he died when MiB killed Maeve's family, but yeah I'm still not convinced.

I just re-watched the scene to be absolutely sure of this;

He DOESN'T say no". Dolores is in the church, hears someone at the door. Says "William?" Doors open, figure in shadows. Steps forward into the light, it's the Man in Black. He smirks, and says "Hello, Dolores." Dolores begins freaking.

He does NOT correct her. The framing and narrative have been tightly enough controlled in this that the lack of a contradiction there, to me, is confirmation that he IS William. Just not the William she expected or wanted. Only way the scene makes proper narrative sense, as portrayed.

[cubby]

I just re-watched the scene to be absolutely sure of this;

He DOESN'T say no". Dolores is in the church, hears someone at the door. Says "William?" Doors open, figure in shadows. Steps forward into the light, it's the Man in Black. He smirks, and says "Hello, Dolores." Dolores begins freaking.

He does NOT correct her. The framing and narrative have been tightly enough controlled in this that the lack of a contradiction there, to me, is confirmation that he IS William. Just not the William she expected or wanted. Only way the scene makes proper narrative sense, as portrayed.

Did you see my stuff on the bottom of page 27 about William being the MiB?

[Dasffion]

Figured out the evidence for William being in the and almost certainly the MiB:

When Dolores was cut open by Logan, her internal workers were the "old school" mechanics instead of the newer "white thread" material. There is a specific scene earlier in the series where someone references how all the old hosts were upgraded to the new material/design.

This proves the multiple timeline theory but not that William is the man in black.

[Endus]

Did you see my stuff on the bottom of page 27 about William being the MiB?

Yeah, I caught that myself on the first viewing, I feel they haven't shown anything like that before precisely to make it clear at that point that we're at an earlier point in the technology's timeline.

I've been really impressed by the narrative so far. There's no wasted elements, and no (real) red herrings; they leave things deliberately out to avoid spoiling a reveal, but even if you're putting absences together to make a guess, the reveals are still well-crafted and done subtly enough that it's not all "A TWIST", but more of either a confirmation that "yeah, you guessed right" or "SURPRISE, fucko" kind of deal. The "What door?" moment stands out in particular; even if you'd guessed the possibility, that was such an elegant confirmation. I actually paused and rewound that scene on first viewing several times to confirm exactly how it was shot, I was so impressed.

It's one of the more elegant uses of unreliable narration that I've seen used. It's subtle, and because of the "It doesn't look like anything to me", it's not even because the narrator's dishonest or misleading, they just honestly don't see it. Gives them a lot of leeway, and they're not abusing it.

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This proves the multiple timeline theory but not that William is the man in black.

Right, but it establishes that The William/Logan storyline is much earlier in the timeline, allowing for the possibility.

Then, the framing of the church scene, that underscores the William-is-the-Man-in-Black pretty damned strongly. Dolores [I]calls him by name[/I]. There's no reason to frame that scene in that way unless you're trying to lead people to this particular conclusion, and like I said, they've carefully NOT tossed out a dozen red herrings to confuse things; they just keep information away from you rather than lying pointlessly or wasting people's time with threads that won't pay out to distract you from the truth.

[cubby]

This proves the multiple timeline theory but not that William is the man in black.

But it adds a huge piece of evidence that was thought to disprove the William/MiB to the other side. With the dress/cowboy outfits that Dolores was wearing as she was going in and out of past/present, I thought it was clear that the present was the cowboy outfit, and because William was in those scenes, he couldn't be the MiB from the past. But with her mechanicals being shown while in the cowboy outfit, it's clear that those scenes with William are in the past. Which just bolsters the theory that William is the MiB.

[Thelxi]

Apparently the knife that William uses to butcher all the hosts in the camp is the same knife that the man in black uses in the present. It features pretty prominently in the shots too so it's not by mistake.

[Donimic]

Even though i cant argue the logic behind the William/MiB theories, I am going to be really disappointed if there is no crazy plot twist next week and all of our assumptions turn out correct.

I'm still hoping that the MiB is actually Logan and that there is some odd connection between William/Dolores and the ever-elusive Wyatt. My only thought in this is because the MiB says that he never saw them as partially-sentient until he kills Mave and her daughter. But its William constantly shows us that he sees Dolores as sentient. I really want William to run off into the wilds to find Dolores at which point they start this sentient host awakening or "the maze" that we are seeing occur with some of the other hosts here and there.

[melodramocracy]

Even though i cant argue the logic behind the William/MiB theories, I am going to be really disappointed if there is no crazy plot twist next week and all of our assumptions turn out correct.

I'm still hoping that the MiB is actually Logan and that there is some odd connection between William/Dolores and the ever-elusive Wyatt. My only thought in this is because the MiB says that he never saw them as partially-sentient until he kills Mave and her daughter. But its William constantly shows us that he sees Dolores as sentient. I really want William to run off into the wilds to find Dolores at which point they start this sentient host awakening or "the maze" that we are seeing occur with some of the other hosts here and there.

I'm thinking it's lame too, and has some inconsistencies in it, as already pointed out elsewhere. MiB actually being a sort of 'terminator host', designed by Arnold to push other hosts towards the maze, would be an interesting twist.

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I realize that - what I'm saying is that unless you absolutely recognized Ford's father, and instead are just guessing (which is fine, I'm just clarifying not accusing/attacking ), I would argue that it doesn't really push the plot any further by having Ford's host father in the picture.

Perhaps I was misunderstanding what you were saying though. If so, my bad.

And it wasn't the MiB - I was looking for that. But I didn't recognize the guy at all.

I'll have to look again as to where I saw the screen capture, but it seemed like a fairly random shot that was just used, primarily more to drive the Bernard thing than to determine who the 3rd person actually was.

[Donimic]

I'll have to look again as to where I saw the screen capture, but it seemed like a fairly random shot that was just used, primarily more to drive the Bernard thing than to determine who the 3rd person actually was.

I'm pretty sure it was just used to show Bernard=Arnold. Earlier when they showed the picture it was only as Bernard looking at the image but since he cant see anything that would hurt him, he can not see himself. There is a 3rd person in the picture because if there was just a random picture of JUST Ford in his office that would be kind of weird. With the second person we just assumed it was a pic of ford and his father (for those who recognized him) or Ford and Arnold (If you just saw him as an unknown character).

My only other question on the subject is how the hell not a single person recognizes one of the founders of this huge company. How the hell has Bernard not heard a single "wow you look a lot like.... oh never mind".

[melodramocracy]

My only other question on the subject is how the hell not a single person recognizes one of the founders of this huge company. How the hell has Bernard not heard a single "wow you look a lot like.... oh never mind".

The company was started with only those 2 individuals, and anyone else who had been working with them is gone. There are also far more hosts working at the company than just Bernard, I'm guessing.

[cubby]

I'm thinking it's lame too, and has some inconsistencies in it, as already pointed out elsewhere. MiB actually being a sort of 'terminator host', designed by Arnold to push other hosts towards the maze, would be an interesting twist.

The MiB being a host would be fairly inconsistent with his behavior - although with the Bernard flip nothing is sacred anymore. But if MiB is a host, he's been replaced by Ford, because the MiB also sits on the Board. Now, that kind of thing would be just what Ford would do to gain his omniscience. But something tells me MiB is not.

I'll have to look again as to where I saw the screen capture, but it seemed like a fairly random shot that was just used, primarily more to drive the Bernard thing than to determine who the 3rd person actually was.

I thought that was the first time we actually saw that particular picture - Ford/Random/Arnold-Bernard.

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My only other question on the subject is how the hell not a single person recognizes one of the founders of this huge company. How the hell has Bernard not heard a single "wow you look a lot like.... oh never mind".

The company was started with only those 2 individuals, and anyone else who had been working with them is gone. There are also far more hosts working at the company than just Bernard, I'm guessing.

Still a good point - does no one recognize Bernard for Arnold - is there not one picture of him that people could reference. Thinking about it more it seems a little glaring . . . .

[Xilurm]

It's the difference between slapping more and more paint on a canvas hoping something looks good at some point, and wiping away a layer of obscuring grime piece by piece and slowly revealing the entire work of art. In the latter, it's all there in the bones, you just can't see some of it, yet.

Which makes me hope this show doesn't screw up somewhere during those 5 seasons we're getting.

[cubby]

I'm pretty sure it was just used to show Bernard=Arnold. Earlier when they showed the picture it was only as Bernard looking at the image but since he cant see anything that would hurt him, he can not see himself. There is a 3rd person in the picture because if there was just a random picture of JUST Ford in his office that would be kind of weird. With the second person we just assumed it was a pic of ford and his father (for those who recognized him) or Ford and Arnold (If you just saw him as an unknown character).

Unless we've seen that pic before, I would have to guess that the third person in the photo has some significance. There is no reason to have a third person in the pic, in regards to the Bernard reveal, other than to further the plot either now or in the future.

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Which makes me hope this show doesn't screw up somewhere during those 5 seasons we're getting.

Is there mention of the show going 5 seasons? And if so, with Jonathan Nolan at the helm, there shouldn't be a big worry about it sliding in quality.

[Xilurm]

I'm not so sure he does think she does play a part. If he had, he wouldn't have just raped her then went on his way. I think them meeting each other at the church was also a surprise for him.

Did he tho? I'm pretty sure he also just scalped her because he did pull out a knife when they showed them in the barn.