[TV] Westworld

[melodramocracy]

The MiB being a host would be fairly inconsistent with his behavior - although with the Bernard flip nothing is sacred anymore. But if MiB is a host, he's been replaced by Ford, because the MiB also sits on the Board. Now, that kind of thing would be just what Ford would do to gain his omniscience. But something tells me MiB is not.

It's just a random thing I've thought about since the last episode. It's certain that he'd believe his own backstory, though the other woman coming to him regarding board issues does throw a wrench in the works of that theory.

On a side topic of sorts, is the age of Clementine as a host ever revealed?

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Is there mention of the show going 5 seasons? And if so, with Jonathan Nolan at the helm, there shouldn't be a big worry about it sliding in quality.

That seems to be the original plan. Several hosts are probably going to escape Westworld courtesy of Maeve, which will open any number of possibilities for future seasons.

[Kagonos]

Unless we've seen that pic before, I would have to guess that the third person in the photo has some significance. There is no reason to have a third person in the pic, in regards to the Bernard reveal, other than to further the plot either now or in the future.

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Is there mention of the show going 5 seasons? And if so, with Jonathan Nolan at the helm, there shouldn't be a big worry about it sliding in quality.

Actually, having the 3rd person in the picture allows for the viewer to conclude that it must be Arnold when we see it the first time since there's no "Bernard" in the picture. Maybe that was the very first host they ever created? Arnold recreated Ford's father as a host and this was how it all begins? The hosts are an attempt at a form of reincarnation.

[Tradewind]

Logan cutting open Dolores, in my mind, pretty much confirms that he is the MiB and not William per what he said to Teddy way back in ep 4 or whatever.

I like how it took 9 episodes for me to finally get my answer on what Dolores looked like on the inside back in the day.

[cubby]

Actually, having the 3rd person in the picture allows for the viewer to conclude that it must be Arnold when we see it the first time since there's no "Bernard" in the picture. Maybe that was the very first host they ever created? Arnold recreated Ford's father as a host and this was how it all begins? The hosts are an attempt at a form of reincarnation.

I'm forgetting (and not in a place I can review an episode atm) but was that the first time we've seen that pic (when Arnold/Bernard is revealed), or did we see it before with Bernard/Arnold and because he was viewing it, we only saw two people - thereby assuming the second (now third) person was Arnold?

It would be interesting if the "end" of the Maze turns out to be a form of immortality. I know Endus and a few others have debunked that idea - but if the Hosts can be set free by getting to the end, or a human can download their brain and then upload it back into a Host body - well, that would be VERY interesting.

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That seems to be the original plan. Several hosts are probably going to escape Westworld courtesy of Maeve, which will open any number of possibilities for future seasons.

That will make for an interesting development for the "real" world, ala Bladerunner, if the Hosts make it out. I'll be curious to see what year it is in that world.

[Beazy]

That seems to be the original plan. Several hosts are probably going to escape Westworld courtesy of Maeve, which will open any number of possibilities for future seasons.

But I thought the hosts had an explosive charge in their spinal cord if they leave the property?


Ohhh, NM I see what you're saying, maybe Maeve "fixes" that little problem.

[Kagonos]

I'm forgetting (and not in a place I can review an episode atm) but was that the first time we've seen that pic (when Arnold/Bernard is revealed), or did we see it before with Bernard/Arnold and because he was viewing it, we only saw two people - thereby assuming the second (now third) person was Arnold?

It would be interesting if the "end" of the Maze turns out to be a form of immortality. I know Endus and a few others have debunked that idea - but if the Hosts can be set free by getting to the end, or a human can download their brain and then upload it back into a Host body - well, that would be VERY interesting.

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That will make for an interesting development for the "real" world, ala Bladerunner, if the Hosts make it out. I'll be curious to see what year it is in that world.

Yes, we had seen that picture being held by Bernard, hence why we only saw 2 people in the picture initially. It was from Bernard's perspective. I think it still be possible that it's a search for immortality via hosts.

Perhaps I missed it in the thread, but has it yet been theorized that the fact that they are called hosts could be that they are hosting the consciousness of a human? Making the maze is the way of getting the hosts to gain true sentience and proving that they are in fact the person who's consciousness was uploaded into them. Like Teddy. Maybe he's a recreation of William and the MiB is actually Logan since he refers to Teddy as "always meant to be the loser" or "always meant to lose" or whatever he says at that moment at the ranch house the first time that we see them interact. I mean obviously that's pretty unlikely; I'm convinced that MiB is William. It all fits so neatly in with how the show has been presented and progressed up to this point.

EDITED: To dovetail in to the theory that Teddy is based on William: Think about Teddy's new narrative that includes the massacre of the Confederalis or whoever those guys were and he's chasing Wyatt. What if Logan is the Wyatt in his memory/narrative and the massacre that Teddy remembers is actually the massacre that we witnessed at the end of the current episode? Just thinking out loud here...

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But I thought the hosts had an explosive charge in their spinal cord if they leave the property?


Ohhh, NM I see what you're saying, maybe Maeve "fixes" that little problem.

Maybe that's what's a the center of the maze. A way to deactivate that function?

[Endus]

Maybe that's what's a the center of the maze. A way to deactivate that function?

If nothing else, they've made it clear that there are multiple centers with the tools for constructing/rebuilding hosts, so all it really takes is them getting into one, shutting down their pain receptors, and cutting them out and putting a new non-explosive vertebra back in.

[Xilurm]

I doubt the Maze is something that would be a threat to Ford's work or plans. Unless there is nothing he can do about it. Then again he can just remove any clues of it from the park.

[Kagonos]

I doubt the Maze is something that would be a threat to Ford's work or plans. Unless there is nothing he can do about it. Then again he can just remove any clues of it from the park.

The maze could be entirely Arnold's construct. Do we know whether Ford is even aware of it?

[Feredir]

The 3rd man in that photo is the host version of Fords father. Ford mentioned that the father host was built for him by Arnold as a gift a few episodes ago.

Are you watching the same show we are, because your assertions are way off.

edit: With regard to no one recognizing Arnold/Bernard, its an often used trope, but Arnold could have been a genius recluse, so there may have been few to no pictures of him in existence. Another possibility is that Westworld is off planet and that everyone working there are also hosts, so there would be no one who would actually recognize him.

[fakaroonie]

I highly assume that Ford's new storyline, which includes the indiands, or that tribe, has something to do with his masterplan, and is something on such a big scale that he does not shy on killing and doing anything possible to see it through.

I have no idea what it is, I suspect it's something related to power. As I don't think Ford craves anything else at this point. He's a legend already, he has everything.
Or maybe he wants to see the world burn, and will let loose all his creations into the world, once they develop a consciousness.

[melodramocracy]

Are you watching the same show we are, because your assertions are way off.

edit: With regard to no one recognizing Arnold/Bernard, its an often used trope, but Arnold could have been a genius recluse, so there may have been few to no pictures of him in existence. Another possibility is that Westworld is off planet and that everyone working there are also hosts, so there would be no one who would actually recognize him.

That's the photo vs the host that we're shown a few episodes ago in the house. I'm not sure why you think any of my assertions are way off.

[cubby]

I don't think he is. It could be a small detail that was overlooked, but Logan has dark brown eyes and the MiB has blue - like William.

Very magnanimous - but I doubt someone like Nolan would ignore such a key detail - especially since this isn't a "gotcha!" type reveal but one in which all the evidence is already under foot.

[Kagonos]

I don't think he is. It could be a small detail that was overlooked, but Logan has dark brown eyes and the MiB has blue - like William.

no, you're absolutely right. I do not think he's Logan, I do believe he's William, it was just a thought that bubbled to mind

[eschatological]

1) I don't think it's well known that Arnold was a co-founder of the park, let alone what he looked like. According to Ford, they worked there, almost by themselves, for three years before the company/park was even opened. And obviously, this beta lab is way out in the middle of fuck-all, and didn't have anything to do with the construction of the main control center. Bernard confronts Ford early in the season about the fact that some hosts are talking to someone they call Arnold, a name that no one (in addition to Bernard) recognizes. Elsie didn't recognize it, and Theresa only knows of Arnold in an abstract way. Now, Bernard may just be an unreliable memory, but no one picked up on it when they first saw the glitch from the "revelries." So I think it's fairly reasonable that no one recognizes Bernard as a copy of Arnold. Whether a company would develop like that in the real world, probably not.

2) I think the end game here is that Ford knows about the maze, but can't do anything about it. Arnold created it, Arnold put all the signs about it around the park, etc. The only thing Ford seems to be able to do is create this new narrative to draw out the AI-players in it. I think the specific tampering of Teddy's narrative to interact with Wyatt is an attempt to draw Wyatt out in the open by making Teddy's prime directive some need to protect Dolores from Wyatt. Wyatt, of course, being some sentient-AI rebel leader either under Arnold's control or programmed by Arnold. The new narrative, from what we've seen and heard, is Ford's attempt at some apocalyptic end-story of sorts. And we know he's building a church that looks like the church that already stands in the "beta" village.

[Donimic]

Unless we've seen that pic before, I would have to guess that the third person in the photo has some significance. There is no reason to have a third person in the pic, in regards to the Bernard reveal, other than to further the plot either now or in the future.

We have seen it before, Bernard was looking at it and it only showed the other two.

[Endus]

The maze could be entirely Arnold's construct. Do we know whether Ford is even aware of it?

Barely. He saw the symbol for it in an earlier episode, and he recalled seeing the symbol in Arnold's journals, but had no idea what it referred to. It seems clear to me that the only people who really know are the few hosts who are in on it, the Man in Black, and possibly Arnold if he's not really dead.

edit: With regard to no one recognizing Arnold/Bernard, its an often used trope, but Arnold could have been a genius recluse, so there may have been few to no pictures of him in existence. Another possibility is that Westworld is off planet and that everyone working there are also hosts, so there would be no one who would actually recognize him.

They actually made it clear that barely anyone knew the team who'd started the park, and that Ford had spent the last 35 years reinforcing the "sole genius" angle. As for nobody recognizing Bernard, because he's a host, his memories are edited. He never "goes home for the night"; he lives on-site (like a lot of employees). He doesn't have friends outside of work. He's a technical guy, not PR, so he doesn't interact with people outside the staff very much, and those few have basically no chance of knowing Arnold ever existed, let alone what the man looked like.

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We have seen it before, Bernard was looking at it and it only showed the other two.

"It doesn't look like anything to me".

One of the interesting things they're doing is that we're seeing things from character's perspectives, somewhat. The Bernard reveal is a perfect example; he's walking through a room with Theresa, the camera pans across an empty wall to focus in on the two of them, Theresa says "what's through this door?", Bernard says "what door?" and you pan back over, and there's a door there. It WASN'T there the first time, and this is all one continuous shot, so it's clearly the same wall. We're seeing things from Bernard's perspective at this point; the door didn't exist until Theresa pointed it out and forced his code to acknowledge it.

Remains to be seen if there's more stuff like that we just haven't caught on to yet.

[-aiko-]

Logan cutting open Dolores, in my mind, pretty much confirms that he is the MiB and not William per what he said to Teddy way back in ep 4 or whatever.

That's what I'd like to believe but I think it's the opposite. Cutting her open pretty much confirms (not that there was much doubt at this point) the multiple timelines theory and in turn a lot of the W=MIB points fall into place. The casting still bugs me since I don't think MIB really looks like an older William but there is pretty overwhelming evidence supporting it. They could just be sending us off track, of course. /shrug

I'm going to try to invest less into theorizing and more into just watching and enjoying the show.

[Relapses]

A handy visual timeline of events for those curious...

[CheeseSandwich]

I just re-watched the scene to be absolutely sure of this;

He DOESN'T say no". Dolores is in the church, hears someone at the door. Says "William?" Doors open, figure in shadows. Steps forward into the light, it's the Man in Black. He smirks, and says "Hello, Dolores." Dolores begins freaking.

He does NOT correct her. The framing and narrative have been tightly enough controlled in this that the lack of a contradiction there, to me, is confirmation that he IS William. Just not the William she expected or wanted. Only way the scene makes proper narrative sense, as portrayed.

Ah yeah, watch it again, misheard it first time. Ok, i'll concede it is most likely that William is MiB, but I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't. Knowing that in the original film the MiB was a robot, I'm not ruling out this MiB as a robot too, just one that Ford made to get on the board. William could still come back into the narrative of the MiB/Delores/church loop (if it is a loop) and 'rescue' Delores from MiB. Kinda out there, but the old movie nags on me I guess.

I'm also kinda leaning towards Teddy being Wyatt, with Delores being the other person in the massacre flash back