1. #3441
    Warchief Supliftz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    So his posistion was that to make up for lack of utility/mobility/raid cd/legendary factor you need more hps not that paladins were getting outhealed by other classes. I.e if you want to bring a paladin over resto shaman they should do considerably more hps.

    Whether or not you agree with his opinion it was never about "paladin doing too low hps". It was about the entire package.

    Also I would think that you agree with him considering you play the highest hps healer while giving up the kind of things resto shamans have?
    I don't agree or disagree either way. This was more of a meme pacer :P

    fwiw I do agree that hpal legendaries were complete garbage, and should of been buffed if you have things like druid boots and shaman legendaries. I would also agree with buffing legendaries of disc priest of a similar reason. Although hpal/disc aren't exactly lacking classes atm.
    Last edited by Supliftz; 2016-11-30 at 09:18 AM.

  2. #3442
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    So his posistion was that to make up for lack of utility/mobility/raid cd/legendary factor you need more hps not that paladins were getting outhealed by other classes. I.e if you want to bring a paladin over resto shaman they should do considerably more hps.

    Whether or not you agree with his opinion it was never about "paladin doing too low hps". It was about the entire package.

    Also I would think that you agree with him considering you play the highest hps healer while giving up the kind of things resto shamans have?
    I'm not saying his points weren't valid. I'm saying they were blown out of proportion considering it was really early in the development stage. By the time I got into early beta, hpaladins were at least mid-pack. Maybe BECAUSE of the whining we got what we have now.
    But "garbage tier"? P-leeeease. Never was, never will.

    Even LotM is a button that I push sometimes, on purpose....yeah.
    At least I have my BIG DICK FoLs for 2 mil, so I got that going for me, which is nice.

  3. #3443
    Deleted
    Hi.
    I'm not playing WoW anymore(and saw this because of notifications sent to email) but I still stand by most of those statements. I think the biggest difference which favored palas were the tank nerfs(massive and they will probably need to re-nerf tanks) and the free talent(getting divine steed for all). Legendaries were/are still trash and the gameplay sucks. I think Hand of Sacrifice's/LoTM design is still retarded. I think people expect that when a class is garbage its some sort of unplayable class at half the healing of others.

  4. #3444
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    Hi.
    I'm not playing WoW anymore(and saw this because of notifications sent to email) but I still stand by most of those statements. I think the biggest difference which favored palas were the tank nerfs(massive and they will probably need to re-nerf tanks) and the free talent(getting divine steed for all). Legendaries were/are still trash and the gameplay sucks. I think Hand of Sacrifice's/LoTM design is still retarded. I think people expect that when a class is garbage its some sort of unplayable class at half the healing of others.
    maximum keks

  5. #3445
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    Hi.
    I'm not playing WoW anymore(and saw this because of notifications sent to email) but I still stand by most of those statements. I think the biggest difference which favored palas were the tank nerfs(massive and they will probably need to re-nerf tanks) and the free talent(getting divine steed for all). Legendaries were/are still trash and the gameplay sucks. I think Hand of Sacrifice's/LoTM design is still retarded. I think people expect that when a class is garbage its some sort of unplayable class at half the healing of others.
    Can you take tibby with you ?

  6. #3446
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Smag View Post
    I'm not saying his points weren't valid. I'm saying they were blown out of proportion considering it was really early in the development stage. By the time I got into early beta, hpaladins were at least mid-pack. Maybe BECAUSE of the whining we got what we have now.
    But "garbage tier"? P-leeeease. Never was, never will.
    It really was complete garbage dumpster tier, just because you didnt test/play doesnt make you right. BoP didnt work on ANY raid bosses initially, LoD had a 45 degree angle which despite its decent healing meant that it was not even worth using, the talents were in a much worse state than currently (and right now its pretty bad, just see warcraftlogs statistics), and so on.

    You realize that the reason why we have a LoD circle arround us is because I wrote a 1000 word essay with illustrations on why LoD sucked right?

    Theres still things on live that are awful but for the most part paladins is great after the many changes they did but lets not pretend it was always that way. Oh and did you know the new legendary trinket which is amazing for priest and druid is going to be garbage for shaman and paladin? I bet you didnt because you didnt test it and instead spend your time whining about people who ask for changes.

  7. #3447
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    Then theres the talents which are still wildly unbalanced, again dont take my word for it take a look on warcraftlogs statistics, BoF 53.2%, RoL 71.3%, HA 52.8%, BF 77.6%, AoM 61.6% and at the oposite end of the spectrum you have BoV at 1.4%, Cavalier at 10.4%, CM at 6.3% etc etc.
    If your criteria for a good talent tree is how varied each player's choice of talents can be, then hpallies have the best talent tree. Disc, MW and rdruid all have 2 talents at above 90%, and holy priest have 3. Shamans have 1. Hpallies have 0. On the other hand, hpallies have 2 talents that are in the single digit percentages, while hpriests have 9, disc 6, rdruid 7, MW 5, and shaman 5.

    It shouldn't be a surprise that AoM would be the most used talent. You're looking at stats based on "Player Healing" above the 75th percentile across all bosses in EN. A mindless raw HPS talent will obviously see the most usage based on that sort of criteria. Change the list to show only Il'gynoth, and you'll see a healthy spread among all 3 talents. Switch to only Cenarius and you see Devo at the top. People will naturally opt for the cookie-cutter (mercy) unless a situation arises where they can take advantage of a different tool.

    Also, BoV and CM both see use in M+. Cavalier is useful in PvP and CM is again used if you're playing melee wings.Talents are there for more than just raiding.

    Don't confuse this post as me saying hpallies are perfect. I do not believe that. However, if you are judging specs based on talent variety, I believe holy paladins are the cream of the crop.

  8. #3448
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    Oh and did you know the new legendary trinket which is amazing for priest and druid is going to be garbage for shaman and paladin? I bet you didnt because you didnt test it and instead spend your time whining about people who ask for changes.
    There are legendary trinkets now?

  9. #3449
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post

    That's where you stand if you have BoF, if you have BoL you stand with the ranged. It doesn't make any sense to stand in melee with BoL. You want to spread your two mastery circles to cover both groups.
    You can't dps from ranged mate. And we do really nice dps now. And that's fairly important when you start doing mythic content. Have a look at the early ursoc logs or 1phase il'gynoth if they are actually around. Or the mythic guarm fight.

  10. #3450
    So glad Holy Power is finally gone!

  11. #3451
    Quote Originally Posted by Narsilon View Post
    You can't dps from ranged mate. And we do really nice dps now. And that's fairly important when you start doing mythic content. Have a look at the early ursoc logs or 1phase il'gynoth if they are actually around. Or the mythic guarm fight.
    Agreed but why take BoL then? Take BoF instead.

  12. #3452
    Quote Originally Posted by Narsilon View Post
    You can't dps from ranged mate. And we do really nice dps now. And that's fairly important when you start doing mythic content. Have a look at the early ursoc logs or 1phase il'gynoth if they are actually around. Or the mythic guarm fight.
    You can't have your cake and eat it too in this situation. If you want to stand in melee and not be able to LoD the ranged just to DPS, go ahead. If you want to stand in ranged so you can LoD them but not DPS, that's fine too. That's the trade-off and cost-benefit analysis you need to make on a case by case basis. Certain classes and specs can be strong on encounters, but encounters aren't designed to cater to a specific class.
    Last edited by PocketSaturos; 2016-12-01 at 07:34 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by gibborim
    Just because you are doing it wrong without large scale failure does not mean you are doing it right.

  13. #3453
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    It really was complete garbage dumpster tier, just because you didnt test/play doesnt make you right. BoP didnt work on ANY raid bosses initially, LoD had a 45 degree angle which despite its decent healing meant that it was not even worth using, the talents were in a much worse state than currently (and right now its pretty bad, just see warcraftlogs statistics), and so on.

    You realize that the reason why we have a LoD circle arround us is because I wrote a 1000 word essay with illustrations on why LoD sucked right?

    Theres still things on live that are awful but for the most part paladins is great after the many changes they did but lets not pretend it was always that way. Oh and did you know the new legendary trinket which is amazing for priest and druid is going to be garbage for shaman and paladin? I bet you didnt because you didnt test it and instead spend your time whining about people who ask for changes.
    Wow, wow, cool it, mate! Why so aggro? I did test them and I know. Don't get all high and mighty just because you've made "a 1000 word essay with illustrations" about a spell. It's like Heroic Strike Gate all over again... Jeeze.

    I've played and raided in this game long enough to remember truly garbage tiers, when whole specs, classes even, where completely useless. Remember "retardins" or unicorn prot paladins in Vanilla? If you wanted to raid, or just do any decent PVE (naxx with undead excluded), you had to be Holy. Period. And back then you couldn't just hop on your alt and play him instead, no problemo. So please, spare me your QQ. I've seen AND played much, much worse.

  14. #3454
    @Pacer

    1) Our current legendaries are set to be better than most healers in 7.1.5. Do you realise that most MW legendaries are useless? What about Holy Priests, who get a bunch of Renew legendaries, despite the fact it's their worst spell? Shamans have one awesome legendary and the rest are pretty average. Meanwhile, Obsidian Spaulders + Ilterendi give huge HPS increases, and next patch Chain of Thrayn is going to be even better. Fuck, even Aggramar's Stride (free 30% MS boost is huge) and Uther's Guard (which will have the 15% max health heal on it) are going to be good. Even if the new leg is better for other healers, we are in a much better spot.

    2) You put yourself is an awkward spot arguing talent diversity, because if I click literally any other healer's talent diversity breakdown, we have the most. The T90/100 tiers have 2 extremely competitive talents, T75 all three talents are useful, T60 all 3 auras are also very useful. The only talents that need brushing up are Light's Hammer and Fervent Martyr. But at least half the healers are stuck with cookie cutter builds for the time being.

    I agree that Paladins came a long way since Alpha though, and for a very long time were pretty painful to play, but by the end of Beta they were well polished

  15. #3455
    Deleted
    Just goes to show how wrong tiberria and floopa were by crying about devo (and bop) being throughput far and above meters. Never was the reason for paladin mandatory-ness. (Double) beacon is and continues to be.

    Talking about talents: why is fervent martyr not redesigned in 7.1.5? Literally the most useless talent of all time (in absolutely no scenario the correct choice).
    Sanctified wrath nerf needs to be reverted, was already behind judgment of light with 10s extra but at least it had good uses here and there.
    Tick rate of light's hammer is still a joke.
    Last edited by mmocf9c4bcbfba; 2016-12-01 at 11:25 AM.

  16. #3456
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Agreed but why take BoL then? Take BoF instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by PocketSaturos View Post
    You can't have your cake and eat it too in this situation. If you want to stand in melee and not be able to LoD the ranged just to DPS, go ahead. If you want to stand in ranged so you can LoD them but not DPS, that's fine too. That's the trade-off and cost-benefit analysis you need to make on a case by case basis. Certain classes and specs can be strong on encounters, but encounters aren't designed to cater to a specific class.
    This isn't about our Beacons. How is this so hard to understand? Casting light of dawn went against their entire class design. Their whole fantasy bit was about healing with the light sacrificing our own life pool and being in melee. Hawg inserted BotL as the solution when in my opinion it clearly isn't the solution. It's not about not being able to cast LoD. We didn't get melee immunity just because a dev sucked at doing ranged mechanics. The fact is that it's one of our key healing abilities in our toolkit. I'm talking about the alpha/beta period. Did you guys really forget how terribad our talents/design was? That was what the discussion was about. And not to sound totally elitist but have you not done any higher content where your dps matters?

  17. #3457
    Our design is still terrible. Just make us plate priests instead of making us a prot paladin that heals - our playstyle is clunky and our kit is full of bandaids and it doesn't feel fun.

  18. #3458
    Are you guys looking forward to your Crit% nerf too? :<
    Who Dares Wins.

  19. #3459
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by trm90 View Post
    1) Our current legendaries are set to be better than most healers in 7.1.5.

    2) You put yourself is an awkward spot arguing talent diversity, because if I click literally any other healer's talent diversity breakdown, we have the most.
    1) Did you miss the part where I specifically said that our legendaries are awful on live and great on PTR (7.1.5)?

    2) Oh wow so awkward, you know what else is awkward? I think you might be on the wrong forum, this is the paladin forum not the priest forum. Just because they have more shit talents than us doesnt mean we dont have room for improvement.
    Last edited by mmocaa84e3d5fa; 2016-12-01 at 02:12 PM.

  20. #3460
    Warchief Supliftz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koenigstiger View Post
    Just goes to show how wrong tiberria and floopa were by crying about devo (and bop) being throughput far and above meters. Never was the reason for paladin mandatory-ness. (Double) beacon is and continues to be.

    Talking about talents: why is fervent martyr not redesigned in 7.1.5? Literally the most useless talent of all time (in absolutely no scenario the correct choice).
    Sanctified wrath nerf needs to be reverted, was already behind judgment of light with 10s extra but at least it had good uses here and there.
    Tick rate of light's hammer is still a joke.
    r u trying to suggest that devo has nothing to do with paladins' strength right now?

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