It seems WoD didn't do that bad

[shonist]

What I don't understand are guys like you who seem to suggest that world would be a perfect place if only Adolf didn't lose. It wouldn't, sorry to break your bubble.

See, I can make some random indirect accusations of random shit as well. Yay!

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Merely keeping the tone you taught us so well. Keep at it.

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In the same way colour-blind people have trouble seeing choice between certain hues. I don't blame them, I don't blame you.

its liek you are insulting yourself, in other word i said "I SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE GAMES, AND THATS WHY I SAY THAT THEY ARE CRAP".
the one that have trouble seeing choice between... is you...

[Kolvarg]

Or maybe the game is now actually designed to be cyclical. Would not surprise me if Activision wants WoW to work like CoD, pumping out new games as fast as possible for box sales.

I, and I would bet most others, stayed in WoW for many months in its earlier expansions not because the endgame grind was such a blast, but because the journey there was generally more challenging and slower paced.

The endgame raid treadmill is the burnout part. Those who did it early on, did it for the challenge and prestige, not so much because a raid treadmill was fun.

The game is now designed to shuttle everyone to that burnout treadmill as fast as possible. Is it a surprise the activity is now so cyclical?

I agree. But leveling does't last forever. In the earlier expansions there were a higher ammount of new people starting the game, or in their first years with the game. Yes the game is different. But I believe it wouldn't still be alive (or at least not doing so well) if it had not changed.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Everything has organization and direction and purpose and flavor and it's voice-acted and there's cutscenes and monumental epicness and all kinds of shit and here you are, longing for the days of "take 15 minutes to collect piles of shit for me for 10 xp." People are stumbling across the most awesome secrets, there are gigantic groups of players in every zone taking on huge creatures, there are by FAR the most unique and fun quests ever made EVERYWHERE you look, there is content WITHIN content WITHIN content and you still bitch...

.

Nice to see this for a change, since the Classic preaching crowd often make a case that Classic never got old, it was always renewable, always new, you never learned to play your class (since they were SO COMPLEX!), never learned to handle leveling mobs (with dat AI) and every task was a monumental feat of strength which required Method levels of gameplay and dedication...

[Aggrophobic]

Legion would probably do better if they did away with the silly legendary system and made it so that everything wasn't about RNG.

[Deleted]

Haha, dream on. It's not like it's all veiled in the mists of mystery.
We know things about civilizations that lived 3000 years ago and further back. Knowing shit about a game from 2004 when the Internet was already around is not that prestigious. Especially considering the pirate servers running that version of the game.

Reading/watching about something is not the same than actually had been there. For obvious reasons (except if you are some kind of time traveller), what we know from 3.000 years ago is nowhere as exact as you want to think it is. And pirate servers, aren't the same as retail vanilla, mentality of players had changed too much to even consider.

It's like passing judgement on Alexander the great as a mass murderer withouth taking into account the historical context. Which is completely stupid. Your quote for example, is a great example of that stupidity, taking at face value comments which tunnel vission and reaffirm your beliefs about what vanilla was rather than actually taking a more unbiased and open minded look at what people liked about vanilla.

The expression useful idiot comes to mind.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Reading/watching about something is not the same than actually had been there. For obvious reasons (except if you are some kind of time traveller), what we know from 3.000 years ago is nowhere as exact as you want to think it is. And pirate servers, aren't the same as retail vanilla, mentality of players had changed too much to even consider.

It's like passing judgement on Alexander the great as a mass murderer withouth taking into account the historical context. Which is completely stupid. Your quote for example, is a great example of that stupidity, taking at face value comments which tunnel vission and reaffirm your beliefs about what vanilla was rather than actually taking a more unbiased and open minded look at what people liked about vanilla.

The expression useful idiot comes to mind.

I'm quite capable of and actively doing both. Sorry, there's nothing mysterious about it, no fog of romance hiding it. I'm sorry that you dislike this fact, but that doesn't negate anything really.

Mentality of players says nothing about factual matters such as available content and gameplay.

[Darkguyver2020]

WoD was good for alts. Legion is good for content, but only for 1 character.

If the alt problem was fixed with Legion, I'd imagine alot more people would be staying. I myself am trying to get 1 of each class up to 110, but the levelling is so slow. We should have the heirloom upgrades already.

Edit: Also, they gotta fix classes. Class issues are one of the big things people are leaving over. Blizz have gotta pull their heads outta their asses and fix classes asap or the expansion is doomed.

There are two different camps here. One that wants more content to do and the one that wants the game to be more alt friendly.
The people that wanted a more alt friendly experience loved WoD while the people that wanted content hated it.
Now it's completely the opposite with Legion. People who want content love it while altoholics hate it.
No matter what Blizz does, they will never please both camps.

[Allenseiei]

There is one big problem with legion: Legendaries.

The rest? Minor incoveniences completely overshadowed by the positives, unless you just want to go melodramatic and cry about any little thing in the game. Every single expansion, even those that people see with rose tinted glasses (vanilla and wotlk) had downsides. You can't make a game with such a broad audience that satisfies everyone.

[Deleted]

I'm quite capable of and actively doing both. Sorry, there's nothing mysterious about it, no fog of romance hiding it. I'm sorry that you dislike this fact, but that doesn't negate anything really.

Mentality of players says nothing about factual matters such as available content and gameplay.

This is where you are drawing wrong conclusions. A game is not all about pure content or gameplay, especially in an MMO. Community, persistent world stuff, if you even know what an MMO is supposed to be.

I'm not agreeing on vanilla being perfect, nowhere close to it. However your arguments have no value if you haven't even played it at the time. You can't judge a game just based on content and the interface menu. Design philosophy, player interaction, general direction matters.

[Jewsco]

It was just the top arena pvp'ers that did that. Racials still matter too.

Gearing was better in wod (the rng doesn't fit pvp), getting into pvp wasn't so gated as you could get pvp gear so easily (now it's just impossible with gear, ap grind and pvp talent grind), "balance was better" albeit never perfect, conquest catch up system was great. Current pvp system in legion lacks the carrots that keep the spinning wheel going, this is a mmorpg after all.

Really? Because bgs were bad and had horrific wait times for horde players. Why do you think they changed the racial if it was no big deal? Pvp was a stun lock mess and being able to get out of it was the whole reason people switched.
How was ashran? People loved that? It was buggy as hell at launch?

You are right there wasn't any complaints about pvp in wod no none at all

[Akka]

Rorcanna knows absolutely nothing about Vanilla, and how people who didn't raid seriously spent their time. Probably because he/she didn't find it fun enough (which is subjective and perfectly fine). You shouldn't bother, it is pointless since people have had 10 years of myths about Vanilla (for the good and the bad) and had been alienated by plenty of Vanilla players who like to crap on the newest iteration of WoW. He/She is just a part of how antagonized the WoW community had become over the years and there is very little we can do about it anymore, since it is a black vs white discussion with no end.

That's... surprisingly spot-on.
Especially the part where Vanilla has become more of a myth and repeated "forum truths" than actual facts.

[Sabii]

Ahhh.. Classic MMOC.

"WoW is so bad and it's dying cause no one plays it because it's so bad that I can't stop talking about how bad it is because I hate it so much that I have to voluntarily come to a fan page about this game I think is so bad and tell other people who agree that it so bad that we can't stop discussing this game we hate. Now let me throw out unsupported "fact" that I will defend by calling people trolls/haters/apologists"

[Toppy]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-design-yes-no

Related

[tikcol]

This proves my suspicion beyond a shadow of a doubt that WoD was in fact, a great expansion. Superior to Legion, most likely in every aspect.

[Hopebringer]

Legion just isn't that good hate to say it because it was really fun for 1-2 months. The player base is very noticeably declining because max level is just flat out boring.

The questing and initial playthru was really fun, The artifact system was interesting and There were a ton of dungeons that looked cool and were fun.

Then people got max level and slowly figured out that everything was repetitive and boring.

World quests are boring, Mythic+ is literally just the same instance scaled up over and over gets boring, Class Balance is a complete mess, Legendary system is a complete mess, Making playing alts irrelevant, PvP is a disaster, Class pruning ruined some classes and removed their entire identity they had for 11 years and Raiding in WoW just really isn't relevant anymore.

The challenge in WoW is just gone Blizzard has made sure of that. You just get max level in a few days play for about a month and find out there is nothing to do that is interesting and quit.

That's what made Vanilla-WOTLK so enjoyable. You didn't get to max level in a day, you didn't get full epics in a day, you didn't have to run 3 different difficulties everyone was on the same playing field, Blizzard didn't assume we were all idiots and we had abilities. This just isn't the case anymore.

This. This this.

[Toppy]

This proves my suspicion beyond a shadow of a doubt that WoD was in fact, a great expansion. Superior to Legion, most likely in every aspect.

Legion does everything better.

Except class design and gameplay, which is the most important thing.

[Deleted]

Lol, completely off the rails, delusional and run by nostalgia.

Oh, dear. Some, like, really tough stuff, right there. Heh.

I've played since vanilla and my favorite time was BC and Wrath because that's when the game was the most exciting for me and I was learning the most and making/playing with the friends I still have now.

Cool story bro. What I keep giving LK credit for is not the excitement of The New, which I obviously had aplenty. It gets my brownie points for the story and the format of gameplay which allowed me to do a lot more than WoD or Legion. MoP even more so on mechanic side, slightly less on the storyline, Because Pandas™.

But I'm not stupid.

But of course you are! You make some random assumption about why people rate X over Y based entirely on the simple fact the conclusion doesn't match up with your own opinion, which is as delusional and off the rails as it gets.

I look back and fucking laugh at how abysmal the questing and everything was in comparison.

Hmm.. let me see... several different story threads I actually cared to partake in, steady buildup to the final confrontation, a metric crapton of extra lore... yeah, totally fucking laughable.

And omg @ vanilla raid content compared to now and recent years.

No strong opinion from me here, I started later.

Everything has organization and direction and purpose and flavor and it's voice-acted and there's cutscenes and monumental epicness

You're talking about WotLK or MoP or Val'sharah? Oh wait, I just found that Legion does come somewhere close to LK/MoP quality levels. In one levelling zone and to a degree in the connected raid, although the raid is getting lambasted for being too easy.

and all kinds of shit and here you are, longing for the days of "take 15 minutes to collect piles of shit for me for 10 xp."

We call this retarded shit Legion World Quests, thankfully completing a bunch of them can yield some tangible rewards. Back in LK I didn't even pay overmuch attention to how much xp exactly does a single quest yield, I was following storylines that interested me, skipped the ones that didn't and maxed out my toons in that way with no problem, so clearly the rewards were sufficient. As opposed to WQs that yield 80gp while a single flask costs 1-4k.

People are stumbling across the most awesome secrets,

That would be Storm Peaks, Mogu vaults or perhaps the heart chamber under Vale you talk about, certainly not anything present in Legion.

there are gigantic groups of players in every zone

Ah yes, I totally forgot World Bosses were invented in Legion, as opposed to MoP. Ah wait, obviously killing Sha of Anger, Galeon and others did not require large groups, popping in with a hunter and a shadowpriest was enough to two-shot them. Yeah. Keep at it please

taking on huge creatures,

Like Galeon and Sha of Anger, certainly not the stunted dwarfs like Knit Hog or that nightmare dragon clone or Withered Jim or any other supposed World Boss which I only remember because a) the name is so cheesily ripped off the Norse myths b) the quest credit bug was so hilarious c) the boss, while being a normal-sized humanoid, was wecking some randoms quite neatly; yeah , totally mate you really got this.

there are by FAR the most unique and fun quests ever made EVERYWHERE you look, there is content WITHIN content WITHIN content and you still bitch...

Bitch is what your da called yur ma, I'm merely pointing out deficiencies of the most fapped over xpac in last 5 years on MMOC. Unique and fun quests were in LK, in MoP and even in WoD.

The shit you say is so outlandish, lmao.

Glad to see just about anything different from your personal trip is outlandish to you. Those pills must be absolutely awesome.

Broken Isles FEELS like by far the largest of any zone I've ever been in

I'm very sorry to learn you never left your basement closet. Val'sharah is absolutely tiny, which is actually good, I like small areas with good amount of content. Aszuna just a bit bigger, just enough to get one thinking about flight. Stormheim is when some pure travel kicks in and Highmountain is 3x too large compared to amount of content I give a shit about in there. Physically, the moment you go up in the air, you immediately see just how microscopic the "continent" is.

because of how much they packed into it and how they used that space.

They surely packed it with unnecessarily obstructive terrain and useless trash mob packs chasing you across half the zone because their despawn radius is so long and the zone is so tiny.

There is stuff way up in the mountains and down in the water and everywhere in between. Travel across Northrend or Outland and tell me which feels more empty...

Again, considering the stuff I actually care about you have one well-done zone (Val'sharah) and a lot of needlessly obstructive terrain pack in large amounts in relatively small zones everywhere else.

I'm not saying Legion doesn't have it's faults.

I'm not saying Legion has no merits. I'm merely allergic to fanboi BS.

As others have pointed out, alts and pvp seem to be it's weaker points (currently).

Too bad my no. 1 WoW hobby is alts and offspecs.

But it's still leaps and bounds better in terms of quality and EFFORT than anything they've ever produced, hands down. FFS, just look at Suramar. That SINGLE zone is damn near an expansion in and of itself.

Never had that impression, perhaps we did different Suramars. It's big for a city zone, but for all I care it should be nuked to oblivion before the player even passes the barrier. It's pretty in architecture, too bad so few of inhabitants raise any sympathy. The wing clip doesn't help either.

[tikcol]

Legion does everything better.

Except class design and gameplay, which is the most important thing.

Don't make me laugh.

[Queen of Hamsters]

This is where you are drawing wrong conclusions. A game is not all about pure content or gameplay, especially in an MMO. Community, persistent world stuff, if you even know what an MMO is supposed to be.

I'm not agreeing on vanilla being perfect, nowhere close to it. However your arguments have no value if you haven't even played it at the time. You can't judge a game just based on content and the interface menu. Design philosophy, player interaction, general direction matters.

Again, community and subjective feel does not change factual matters such as mechanics, AI, available content and so on.

[Queen of Hamsters]

That's what made Vanilla-WOTLK so enjoyable. You didn't get to max level in a day, you didn't get full epics in a day, you didn't have to run 3 different difficulties everyone was on the same playing field, Blizzard didn't assume we were all idiots and we had abilities. This just isn't the case anymore.

Am I the only one who remembers WOTLK being flogged like a dead horse due to "welfare epix"...? And didn't this start in TBC at that when vendors with epix were introduced?
And as someone who leveled through the content to 80 before the 1-60 revamp, I can only recall "challenge" ever coming from my own inexperience and rookie mistakes. It's not as if it was horribly complex to figure out that I shouldn't run straight through an area as it would aggro too many mobs... It took me 2 months to get to max level and the journey was excellent, but it was also entirely new. Future characters = I zipped through the content in a matter of days as well.