Warlock: The Death of a Class in WoW

[Deleted]

BTW
What u see in those logs that affliction warlocks are "fine" only because you can stack souls from trash before boss pull which grants a huge advantage. The class and the spec very far from "fine" in the true world

What's the problem with that? It's a game mechanic, just like the SP's shadow orbs in WoD that he could collect before the fight and it was a big boost to his DPS.
Admittedly, Affliction is only looking good because of DPS on non-critical adds in the last 2 fights, but that's also true for the fire mage.

[Deleted]

What's the problem with that? It's a game mechanic, just like the SP's shadow orbs in WoD that he could collect before the fight and it was a big boost to his DPS.
Admittedly, Affliction is only looking good because of DPS on non-critical adds in the last 2 fights, but that's also true for the fire mage.

The problem is with that you cant rely on this cause if you wipe once you have 0 souls and you are fucked! Souls should generate out of combat automatically, or we should have a spell which refill all of them on demand with a long CD. Thats my two cents about this.

[Deleted]

Posted by Clarlem
Feedback: you're leaving the warlock community out in the cold. Please communicate with us. We are extremely desperate.

Ion:
We agree with a number of the core concerns raised, but don't have immediate solutions (or those solutions will take more time to design, implement, and test than the 7.1.5 PTR cycle affords). A couple of examples off the top of my head:
Steady/predictable Ember generation suited the Destruction rotation well, and something important was lost in the course of unifying the class to use a single shared resource, but fixing that at this point isn't just as simple as rolling everything back to Embers.
Mechanics like Demonic Empowerment and Soul Effigy are cumbersome to manage and while they have strong spec-specific theming, the actual gameplay of using them drags down their respective specs.

We're probably too reluctant to acknowledge problems for which we don't yet have a solution to present. But the fact that we haven't yet changed something doesn't mean that we think it's perfect as-is.


I cant post links for source.

[Orwell7]

Like... this is log data from the last two weeks. Warlocks seem pretty good to me.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#

I mean they're better than a lot of other specs. All of their specs have fights that suite them more than the other ones. Running Demo/Destro is pretty easy and covers most situations unless you need to farm mythic plus in which case you really need to build up a second set. I don't see the issue really.

I really don't understand your doom and gloom whining. Looking at every single percentile you seem warlocks up very high with affliction and destro or demo is usually higher than most other specs as well. Looks like warlock is better than either druid dps spec.

I don't really understand warcraftlogs ratings.

Let's dig a little deeper, shall we?

Nythendra:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#boss=1853
Nothing spectacular, Demonology is a good ST turret spec which is this boss is all about.
Boss damage: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

Ilgynoth is a little tricky. Some say that heart damage doesn't matter, some say that it is the only thing that matters.
For my guild, our only struggle is when we kill the blobs too fast and we get back-to-back explosions and debuff stacks.
Boss damage for reference: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps
Clear melee advantage, and I say for progression where every % matters, I don't want to stack warlocks. 1 is fine, tho.


Elerethe Renferal
Again, a mainly single target fight, but killing spiders can be important. Usually they die from melee cleave.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#boss=1876

Boss damage:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

Please note one thing! If you click on "going back the entire tier" you get nice graphs.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...&timespan=1000

Go check on Affliction and how freakin low they started. It was a _BAD_ design to have a spec so dependent on a fully talented Artifact Weapon. We have said this in alpha, beta, on live, but, you now. The usual


Ursoc:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#boss=1841
Demo is good ST, affliction is dead last even with a full weapon.
(Affli is better on Elerethe bc it's filler is shit compared to the dots which will tick when the boss is in the air and you move to the other platform)

Dragons of Nightmare:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#boss=1854

Boss damage:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

Ohh, great fight for warlocks! Did you guess it right? I present a few points which can question this.
I'm sure all of you know that the game's combat log doesn't add up the damage inside the portals if you're outside (and the opposite)
Most raids don't send warlocks to kill the big adds, because our single target is shit in the 30-40 seconds window you need.
Because of this, almost all warlock parses have they do maximum damage on the flowers, spirits, dragons, which are all important, but they DO screw up logs.

The 95th percentile logs act as a "filter" where they can freely nuke outside of the portals.
This still shows Affliction as dominant, but other specs climb up and even surpass Destruction who is the "king of cleave", or is supposed to be.
Still a good fight for Warlocks!


Cenarius, the end boss of Emerald Nightmare:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#boss=1877
Affliction dominance!!
I wonder what would've happened if the drakes had some tank swap mechanic and you had to kill them and do the fight properly.
Right now the most effective strategy is to offtank the drakes and burn the boss, so let's check boss damage:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

Suddenly Affliction is middle of the pack, which is not a bad place to be. Even better if you see that only Demo and Shadow passes it among ranged specs!


I won't go into Xavius because that fight is bullshit on warcraftlogs.


Trial of Valor:

Odyn Heroic:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...8&difficulty=4
Hmm I wonder how can 2 rogue specs can match the "king of cleave" specs. It doesn't really matter, Locks are great on Heroic Odyn

Guarm Heroic:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...2&difficulty=4
Not much to say, Demo is good ST (only behind SP among casters!), while Destro and Affli are.. well, dead last

Hely Heroic:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...8&difficulty=4
A great aoe fight where we can sow our seeds properly.

Let's check boss damage

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps
I wonder how those rogue specs can be good at aoe and boss damage at the same time, where we are either good at one or the other? Well, who cares it's only heroic.

Odyn Mythic:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12/#boss=1958
oooh this looks great!
All specs are great at cleave and single target! Wonderful, Warlocks can be crowned for this fight. All specs!

Guarm Mythic:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12/#boss=1962

Affliction even surpasses Demonology on Guarm! Tho we're middle of the pack at best.
I suspect there are too few logs at the moment, because Affliction's max is 473k, being better than Fire Mages and their best is 544k.

[Jessicka]

Posted by Clarlem
Feedback: you're leaving the warlock community out in the cold. Please communicate with us. We are extremely desperate.

Ion:
We agree with a number of the core concerns raised, but don't have immediate solutions (or those solutions will take more time to design, implement, and test than the 7.1.5 PTR cycle affords). A couple of examples off the top of my head:
Steady/predictable Ember generation suited the Destruction rotation well, and something important was lost in the course of unifying the class to use a single shared resource, but fixing that at this point isn't just as simple as rolling everything back to Embers.
Mechanics like Demonic Empowerment and Soul Effigy are cumbersome to manage and while they have strong spec-specific theming, the actual gameplay of using them drags down their respective specs.

We're probably too reluctant to acknowledge problems for which we don't yet have a solution to present. But the fact that we haven't yet changed something doesn't mean that we think it's perfect as-is.

I cant post links for source.

Blizzquote tags for clarity, and source

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Damage seems to be the only thing people who say Blizzard ruined their class / specc. (if it is a dps specc). Really, it started with SP and then one by one every single class forum had the gloom and doom and I quit thread. Yesterday I stumbled into pretty much the same thread, just for a pissed off fire mage

As above, Blizz have acknowledged a few of the major mechanical issues right there; it really isn't about damage but as ever, people always look for keywords like 'damage' or 'balance' in order to jump on a poster rather than acknowledge that mechanics are a major concern in order to stiffle discussion and criticism of the game.

[Rockerjompa]

I mean is warlock even that bad? What is it that people are so upset about because the warlocks I talk to are pretty happy with the state of their class in terms of damage output.

Numbers aren't the problem. The problem is destructions RNG shard regen and RNG mastery, Demos demonic empowerment spam and affli is overall very clunky

[LaserChild9]

The bolded part is completely false. Exactly why does anyone have to be top or bottom, and what does that even mean? Top DPS or bottom DPS? And by how much? If I'm bottom dps should I be bottom by 100%, or 10%? And why? You just make massively stupid generalizations and expect people to take your word that they are correct, which, they are not.

Its not completely false at all. What do you suggest the truth is then? That everybody does an equal amount of dps? Do you know how hard that would be from a design perspective? To balance every skill in every rotation, to ensure that if performed correctly every spec would do the exact same dps? People complain that they have to wait a couple of years for an expansion, this would increase that wait significantly. Blizzard have said somewhere that ideally the gap between top and bottom dps would be smaller, (I'm sure a 10% difference was the figure) but its all a work in progress and its not an easy thing to achieve. Its not a case of taking my word, its a case of using your common sense.

And to clarify your question top and bottom dps are forecasts of a specs peak potential if played optimally. Due to balance issues there will always be an outlier on each end, top and bottom.

If you are so sure that my statement was "massively stupid" then defend your position and suggest an alternative, explain why there is a top and a bottom dps in every expansion, hell, in every single game that has multiple play styles. Personally I think your views are idealistic and naive.

[Deleted]

So what? Are you really advodating that locks are broken because they are not #1 in every single fight? That's a bit selfish of you, isn't it? In most non top 100 guilds, you will have a fixed raid setup and if locks shine on 4 out of 7 fights in EN, that pretty much guarantees them a spot.

Also, don't forget Helya where destruction lock also shines. Or Guam and Nyth where demo lock is always in the top part of the meters.

I'm not saying locks are broken.

I don't like the way I have to play atm, where I have to respec for every fight (IE. Hearthstone to Dalaran or waste 500g on a Tome). I don't like Soul Effigy as a talent, I don't like that I can cleave the shit out of boss fights but lack single target damage.

It feels off, in the 12 years I played a warlock I was always able to perform good on either type of fight. Sometimes I had to respec from affliction to destruction, or even demo for fights in BRF. I didn't mind that, I loved being able to play all specs, now with AP I can't. I have to put point in all specs while some of my guildies have the 5% perk ready.

Yes, I could've put all points in 1 spec, but then I feel I could do more on certain fights, so I chose to spread. Maybe that's a bad choice on my end, I think it's a weird design choice from Blizzards end.

I'm just unhappy about the way I have to play my favorite character. I do think locks aren't horrible at the moment and perform decently.

[Deleted]

#bringbackXelnath

[Jessicka]

Fair enough. It is far from my intent to "stifle discussion and criticism". Maybe I am looking for keywords like "damage" because they always jump out. As in "I am getting benched because my dps is shit because player xyz who is a noob has a better legendary". The fire mage thread is about "people are envious about my AoE damage, but they don#t see how my Single target dps is shit". I am sure that could be looked at from the angle of mechanics (as in "reliant on RNG") but at the bottom line...if it is not about dps, why do people inevitably link dps meters?

In your example, you're talking about the delta in throughput between AoE and ST situations being excessive; in that case it's entirely appropriate to link meters to demonstrate that. Or, as was the case earlier in the expansion, when specs were genuinely and demonstrably through logs underperforming; and were consequently buffed as a result. There's nothing wrong with using logs to talk about numbers when its numbers, or mechanical issues which cause oddities in those numbers.

But, people don't read and don't want to disentangle those things. They automatically make it about numbers, or skill, even when those things are not mentioned. You literally brought up numbers and damage in a discussion of a topic where Watcher himself is talking about very specific mechanics and talents. Why even would you do this? Did you just not read any of it, and succumb to this mad urge to defend Blizzard or attack "random whiners" just because?

I rarely post on these class boards anymore, because I am pretty sick of this type of behaviour. It's absurd and offers nothing.

[Jessicka]

Ehm....sorry, but literally the sixth post in this topic linked logs and brought damage in. You can accuse me of not reading every post and thus missing the guy who linked Watcher. But this topic started as a rant and people called the guy out on it initially.

In fact, OP's post is a pretty undetailed, flat out tandrum of "Finally blizzard did it, I have decided to quit my warlock, we just got lies since alpha and things are not gonna change, every time we got dissapointment after dissapointment from blizzard, they really dont care of the game any longer, they just want to make profit. I have decided to unsubscribe an stop giving them money. Was good while lasted but PTR changes are not going to fix us."

In fact to me THAT "absurd and offers nothing"

So I have no idea why you are reacting like you are. It is not like Op started a detailed discussion and adressed specific points, but you chose my post to get all pissy?

Your reply was to a post telling you that "damage isn't really the problem for lots of people".

It's not like this is either the only thread, or like any of these issues have only just today come to light because Watcher mentioned them.

[Deleted]

I switched from my Warlock that I have been playing since vanila. Playing Demon Hunter as main now. But seems like they are getting nerf aswell...

[gruxxar]

I switched from my Warlock that I have been playing since vanila. Playing Demon Hunter as main now. But seems like they are getting nerf aswell...

again, it's more about the mechanics & flow of the specs for alot of warlocks. Dh still seems the same for me (disregardin numbers).

[Dominus89]

Even tho I don't disagree with you that Warlocks are in an allright place from time to time, they do lack in certain areas.
The logs you linked include cleave fights, but if you look at Nythendra locks are dead bottom. I don't know, but Single Target isn't great and the burst that comes with the best Single Target spec is non-existant.

Locks shine on fights like Odyn, Dragons, Ursoc mythic, Cenarius and Xavius. On the rest they're not really bringing much to the table.

Demo warlocks top 4.

A single target spec topping the meters on a single target fight, who could've guessed?!

Though it would be nice with higher ST as destro and slightly lower cleave.

[Hctaz]

Even tho I don't disagree with you that Warlocks are in an allright place from time to time, they do lack in certain areas.
The logs you linked include cleave fights, but if you look at Nythendra locks are dead bottom. I don't know, but Single Target isn't great and the burst that comes with the best Single Target spec is non-existant.

Locks shine on fights like Odyn, Dragons, Ursoc mythic, Cenarius and Xavius. On the rest they're not really bringing much to the table.

What do you mean dead bottom? Demo is like third best dps spec.

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That is not accurate. please stop posting that nonsense.

Look at them fight by fight.

Affliction:
nyth - 4th from bottom
eye = 5th from top (who cares it's all bs anyway)
spider - 5th from top
ursoc - bottom
dragons - top
cenarius - top
xavius - 2nd (most of this is again bullshit padding).

Why don't YOU look at them fight per fight

Nyth Demo 4th best dps spec
Tree vagina has warlocks doing better than half the raid with two specs
Elerethe has affliction up pretty high due to the add deaths
Ursoc Demo is 6th best spec
Dragons has affliction number one and destro number 5
Cenarius is affliction in top 2
Xavius... oh boy lol. You say affliction is padding but what you fail to point out is that out of the top 6 dps specs on that fight, 3 of them ARE THE WARLOCKS lol

[TheShultz]

Does that mean you'll finally stop posting the same shit on this forum?

Please be the case. Please be the case. Please.

[Splenetic]

I was really expecting an in-depth analysis here, disappoint.

[BannedForViews]

What do you mean dead bottom? Demo is like third best dps spec.

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Why don't YOU look at them fight per fight

Nyth Demo 4th best dps spec
Tree vagina has warlocks doing better than half the raid with two specs
Elerethe has affliction up pretty high due to the add deaths
Ursoc Demo is 6th best spec
Dragons has affliction number one and destro number 5
Cenarius is affliction in top 2
Xavius... oh boy lol. You say affliction is padding but what you fail to point out is that out of the top 6 dps specs on that fight, 3 of them ARE THE WARLOCKS lol

3 specs that we can't readily switch between, so what is your point? You share a link that has affliction second with a small spattering of parses compared to other specs, then you bring up that other specs perform well and are warlock, so clearly warlocks are great. Way to move the goal posts.

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Its not completely false at all. What do you suggest the truth is then? That everybody does an equal amount of dps? Do you know how hard that would be from a design perspective? To balance every skill in every rotation, to ensure that if performed correctly every spec would do the exact same dps? People complain that they have to wait a couple of years for an expansion, this would increase that wait significantly. Blizzard have said somewhere that ideally the gap between top and bottom dps would be smaller, (I'm sure a 10% difference was the figure) but its all a work in progress and its not an easy thing to achieve. Its not a case of taking my word, its a case of using your common sense.

And to clarify your question top and bottom dps are forecasts of a specs peak potential if played optimally. Due to balance issues there will always be an outlier on each end, top and bottom.

If you are so sure that my statement was "massively stupid" then defend your position and suggest an alternative, explain why there is a top and a bottom dps in every expansion, hell, in every single game that has multiple play styles. Personally I think your views are idealistic and naive.

I already explained it, you just ignored virtually all of my post except for the hyperbole at the very beginning. Yes, they could make everyone do identical numbers but no one would enjoy that, so they dont. Even if they did do that though, human error would still create a margin by which we would never actually know if the game were balanced "perfectly". The real issue is everything else I stated which you conveniently ignored. It's easy to say there is a top and a bottom, but Dark Legacy already did a comic on that where the warrior were championing for a new name so they could be on top of the alphabetical list of identical dps. Why is the variance between what is top and bottom so large, and why do we so readily accept it? Just because it's harder for Blizzard to do a better than a worse job at balance? Everything people defend about the game is due to accepting more mediocrity from a multi billion dollar game.

[Gihelle]

I'm not sure if I'm more disappointed with what Blizzard has offered for us this expansion, or with this post.

[LaserChild9]

I already explained it, you just ignored virtually all of my post except for the hyperbole at the very beginning. Yes, they could make everyone do identical numbers but no one would enjoy that, so they dont. Even if they did do that though, human error would still create a margin by which we would never actually know if the game were balanced "perfectly". The real issue is everything else I stated which you conveniently ignored. It's easy to say there is a top and a bottom, but Dark Legacy already did a comic on that where the warrior were championing for a new name so they could be on top of the alphabetical list of identical dps. Why is the variance between what is top and bottom so large, and why do we so readily accept it? Just because it's harder for Blizzard to do a better than a worse job at balance? Everything people defend about the game is due to accepting more mediocrity from a multi billion dollar game.

I'm gonna break down your response and my reply in an easy to digest way for you because obviously your brain cant comprehend it any other way:

The bolded part is completely false. Exactly why does anyone have to be top or bottom, and what does that even mean?

Its not completely false at all. What do you suggest the truth is then? That everybody does an equal amount of dps? Do you know how hard that would be from a design perspective? To balance every skill in every rotation, to ensure that if performed correctly every spec would do the exact same dps? People complain that they have to wait a couple of years for an expansion, this would increase that wait significantly.

Top DPS or bottom DPS? And by how much? If I'm bottom dps should I be bottom by 100%, or 10%? And why?

Blizzard have said somewhere that ideally the gap between top and bottom dps would be smaller, (I'm sure a 10% difference was the figure) but its all a work in progress and its not an easy thing to achieve. Its not a case of taking my word, its a case of using your common sense.

And to clarify your question top and bottom dps are forecasts of a specs peak potential if played optimally. Due to balance issues there will always be an outlier on each end, top and bottom.

You just make massively stupid generalizations and expect people to take your word that they are correct, which, they are not.

If you are so sure that my statement was "massively stupid" then defend your position and suggest an alternative, explain why there is a top and a bottom dps in every expansion, hell, in every single game that has multiple play styles. Personally I think your views are idealistic and naive.

Now, I hope that clarifies things for you, I didn't ignore any of your response to me, in fact I addressed all of it. As you can see above, I haven't changed a single word, just broke it all down into bite sized chunks that you can hopefully understand. Now I just want to point out that you have completely ignored my response while trying to claim I did the same to you. I have bolded the specific parts of my response that you have not addressed in case you want to try again.