Is this for real ? (HUGE nerf to secondary stats for ALL specs)

[Mawnix]

As a frost DK, I sympathize. Frost's secondary scaling changes drastically per piece of gear. When filling out a BiS spreadsheet for my guild to know what I need, I'm at a loss. Sure, that Crit/Haste ring looks great but not if it upsets my 8% Vers target. We're trying to maintain a stat spread of 20% haste, 25% crit (+/-5) and 8% Vers.

To me, that's just as busted as Mages favoring crit over int and stacking it to the moon. A flat reduction to all secondary stats is still a huge impact to all classes, some more than others when they're managing multiple stats at certain breakpoints. Of course, if they adjust these changes with increases to strength/int/agi...then fine.

Nightmare Eggshell is up there on our BIS trinkets but not "the" best. I use it purely so I can cross that 32% threshold every minute of every fight on Mythic. It's great to do so, and helps me with regen. I'm lucky I got it out of my weekly +10-12 cache about a month ago.

To be perfectly honest I don't have "any" issues with maintaining resources on a fight. I'll have that incredibly rare occasion where RNG decides I'm its bitch and I'm getting no RE procs, but otherwise I'm fine.

However, this is due to a couple of factors rather than just my trinket: I have the BIS Legendary Belt, I run the standard Runic Attenuation, and any downtime is marginally offset by Frozen Pulse.

But this rolls into the other major issue: talents. I'm glad they're taking a look at talents, and I'm glad that they're reeling in secondary stats, but I am sort of fearful as to what my resource management is going to be like in 7.1.5.

If these talent tweaks can offset it (example: Murderous Efficiency, though in the process of taking that we lose Icy Talons), I'm completely fine with it. I sincerely just hope this works out.

- - - Updated - - -

With this nerf of secondary stats they are nerfing damage, healing and tanking at all. One way or another they have to compensate this, maybe with boosting primery stats. If they want to make ilvl more determinative, they have to add primary stats to rings and neck. This way we can get compensation for nerfing secondary stats.

I'd be happy if they adjusted how primary stats scale with each class, because this has been an issue with DKs since.. well, ever.

We start off the expansion strong. Hell, aside from the tweaks to RNG and some damage buffs, I pull fantastic damage in our raids.

But once scaling gets out of control by the 2nd/3rd tiers due to stat inflation, there's almost no way to avoid us being middle-bottom of the pack.

The good thing about this nerf to secondaries is that it's a "fix" to a stat inflation that's already started to occur with this expansion. However, something else needs to be done in order to fix it popping back up later in the expansion.

[slickwilly]

Pretty much. The game has been so incredibly dumbed down that the whole metagame about gearing is more or less dead, with ilvl either being or aimed at being, the only relevant information. We're already practically at "+1 ilvl = +1 % output". Do we really need to go down that path ?

99.999 % of the player base just go to MMO champs to look at the guides the other 0.001% created so dumbing it down is realy a moot point. The 0.001% have already dumbed it down for you.

[Raugnaut]

The easiest way to fix it is PvE templates - Makes balancing easier for BLizz, and equipping higher ilvl gear increases your stats by a %age, akin to how PvP works (Although at a far greater rate). No more worrying about secondaries, no more having useless classes until you get X gear, ect, ect.

[Deleted]

Seriously all they need to do is bring back reforging if they want to make ilvl important again. Now with gear being so damn inflexible and with no way to mend it they make their own bed with people picking "worse" gear with better stats on them. Reforging was the tool to make shitty upgrades somewhat useful.

That will not fix the underlying problem, the difference in scaling between different classes. At the start of the expansion, shadow priests were completely rubbish. Now they top damage meters on boss fights in raids. Unholy DKs were really good at the start, their scaling has been nowhere near as good. I play a guardian druid, and have tanked through the expansion so far with the same prot pally. At the start, at around 840 iLvl, on aoe fights I was doing more than double his damage. Now, both of us around 875-880, both of us gearing for more or less the same secondary stats as before, he does twice as much damage as me on aoe. This is not a new phenomenon, it has been around in previous expansions. In WoD, one of our longest serving raiders was playing warrior and could not understand why his damage constantly sucked. Come HFC, he got a few pieces of gear, and went from one of our worst to our top dps overnight, without changing a single thing about how he was playing. Different classes/specs scale differently with iLvl increase, and always have. The disparity is just far worse this expansion than ever before. Reforging is not going to fix that.

[rda]

The easiest way to fix it is PvE templates - Makes balancing easier for BLizz, and equipping higher ilvl gear increases your stats by a %age, akin to how PvP works (Although at a far greater rate). No more worrying about secondaries, no more having useless classes until you get X gear, ect, ect.

(OMG, you don't know what can of worms you are opening here. PVP is in terrible, terrible shape, copying things from there at this time is not a good idea at all.)

[Mawnix]

(OMG, you don't know what can of worms you are opening here. PVP is in terrible, terrible shape, copying things from there at this time is not a good idea at all.)

I actually enjoy PVP right now for my class, but I have noticed are horribly unbalanced and I am biased because Frost DKs are strong in PVP currently. Hell, even Unholy marginally is.

Example provided: I am a Frost DK. If I see a Warlock, 99 times out of 100 he will only get about a 4th of my health down before I brutally murder him. They're.. really bad in PVP. Doesn't really matter which spec.

[rda]

I actually enjoy PVP right now for my class, but I have noticed are horribly unbalanced and I am biased because Frost DKs are strong in PVP currently. Hell, even Unholy marginally is.

Example provided: I am a Frost DK. If I see a Warlock, 99 times out of 100 he will only get about a 4th of my health down before I brutally murder him. They're.. really bad in PVP. Doesn't really matter which spec.

Yes, and this isn't even the biggest issue. There are other, *bigger* issues than lack of balance (sounds crazy, but it's true).

That's why PVP participation *dropped* about 2x (!) since WoD, instead of increasing like would be expected, especially in the first season, especially in a good expansion, especially following a much worse expansion. It's a total shame. They have to fix it (they are taking steps to).

[Swizzington]

Why don't they just put primary stats on jewelry ffs it's not rocket science.

[HumbleDuck]

This doesn't really fix that. If the 885 still has haste on it and your class needs crit to get to a baseline, you will still be picking the crit. If anything, it means you may have to sacrifice even more higher ilvl pieces because hitting that baseline is even more difficult.

If intellect has a higher total weight than critical ( on an item), you should not trade it with critical even if critical is more rewarding per point, and with snapshoting gone many of these breakpoints have been obsolete.

[l33t]

Yeah, but even with reforging, it's completly baffling to me how poorly do they balance their own game statwise. I'd say it's simple math, but it's not even that. You make a dot-based class - oops, it drinks Haste like a fat guy chuggs Dr. Pepper. Okay then - make crit do something, tune mastery up, remove versatility from the game, if it's doing too much damage nerf damage. There, done. Comparing to how annoying and long it must be to tune talents/abilities/artifact, that's the easiest thing out there, and somehow the one Blizzard keeps failing on.

I bet it has something to do with artificially bloating loot tables, to deny people their BiS for as long as possible. That's the one and only reason for Versatility the Abomination of All Stats to exist...

[HumbleDuck]

Nerfing all secondary stats won't fix that. It will just make classes that rely on crit or haste breakpoints bad and unfun to play. And since you get less crit and haste you need to stack even more crit or haste gear to reach those breakpoints.

This change makes the problem worse not better.

I don't understand this logic, total amount of a stat matters not just it's value per point.
If one piece has 100 more Intl than a piece which has 10 more hate, the chances are the one with more intl is better, at a point this will even make reaching thr breakpoints a second priority.

[Static]

Primary stats really need to come back on jewelry.

[Sarevokcz]

They obviously want the ilvl of items to be the most "important" factor, when for example an ilvl 880 ring is worse to you than your old 850 because the secondary stats, thats a problem (according to them).

but... this literally doesnt change anything in regards to jewelry, if crit outscales other stats 2:1, it will still outscale them even if all secondaries give 15% less...

the only reason this makes sense if they anticipate some heavy inflation of ilevels in higher tiers due to people gearing really quickly to high levels, so for raids to stay relevant, they will boost the rewards, but dont want the overall scalling get out of hand too quickly. And lets be honest, some specs, like firemages with 70% crit, were getting out of hand way too soon, we are only halfway through first tier and fire was already chaincasting pyros (yes, yes, its (slightly) exxagerated), the spec wouldnt progress gameplay-wise anywhere for the next year and half and it would make stuff like fireball and scorch worthless spells

[Deleted]

They want iLevel to be the most important "stat" so that people don't have to wear something 15 iLevels lower because they value one secondary stat over other secondary stats.

So they approach it with the typical Blizzard solution: make everything so shit that stats no longer make any difference...

[l33t]

and it would make stuff like fireball and scorch worthless spells

Maybe, just maybe, the problem is that fireball and scorch ARE worthless spells, no matter how much stats you have?

[saeros]

but... this literally doesnt change anything in regards to jewelry, if crit outscales other stats 2:1, it will still outscale them even if all secondaries give 15% less...

the only reason this makes sense if they anticipate some heavy inflation of ilevels in higher tiers due to people gearing really quickly to high levels, so for raids to stay relevant, they will boost the rewards, but dont want the overall scalling get out of hand too quickly. And lets be honest, some specs, like firemages with 70% crit, were getting out of hand way too soon, we are only halfway through first tier and fire was already chaincasting pyros (yes, yes, its (slightly) exxagerated), the spec wouldnt progress gameplay-wise anywhere for the next year and half and it would make stuff like fireball and scorch worthless spells

^
this is the only thing this change fix, and it works. (with drawbacks on the specs that need to reach some break-points in a stat)

does it make primary stat (so item level) the best thing? no, it still suck. the only thing that maybe change is that right now a 895 with bad stat is worse 850 with good stat, with the changes you will need a 860.
this assuming the primary stat is on the item.
for rings and necks this change do nothing, literally nothing.

hopefully they know that, and as i said before probably this change is ONLY here to fix the absurd scaling in stat.
i really don't think that they are making this to make item level more important.

[sasofrass]

So, correct me here if I'm wrong but the secondary stat change was to fix items of a lower item level having better secondary stats than items of a higher item level. In my experience this commonly happened on necks and rings much more often than any other piece of gear. In previous expansions, every item had primary stats on them, meaning eventually item level will make them better. Legion removes primary stats from necks and rings. So the solution to fixing this problem is to absolutely obliterate the secondary stats instead of adding primary stats to necks and rings?

On top of these changes we are seeing nothing but horrendous class changes on the 7.1.5 PTR. I see people saying "this happens every PTR" but really when you think about it, how many people are currently quitting the game mid-tier instead of at the end of expansions? I get people leave all the time but really how many guilds out there are having a real issue with their roster? Both guilds I am in started with a roster of over 30 and both are now barely above 20. I am seeing this everywhere.

Is the ego of the developer team that inflated that because they believe this is the necessary changes that it is acceptable and fun? I've loved the game since BC, and now it's the worst game I've honestly ever played and the developers answer to fixing what the community is constantly repeating is just to ignore them and do their own thing, which clearly hasn't worked this entire expansion. It's not really that the sky is falling, it's that the sky has already fallen with this expansion and the developers believe their opinions are far above the entire communities and ignore every ounce of input or suggestion that is given.

Really disappointing to see the game in the current state it is in and the direction it's heading.

[Direpenguin]

I don't understand this logic, total amount of a stat matters not just it's value per point.
If one piece has 100 more Intl than a piece which has 10 more hate, the chances are the one with more intl is better, at a point this will even make reaching thr breakpoints a second priority.

Yes, and once primary stats have any impact on how the class actually PLAYS (skill triggers, rotations, GCD, etc), then that will matter. Until then, people will keep needing to prioritize secondary stats in order to make their class actually function.

Blizzard should stop referring to them as Primary/Secondary/Tertiary and call them what they really are:

- (Primary) Boring Raw Attributes that increase health, mana, atk/spell power, etc.
- (Secondary) Stats that actually define how your spec plays and how skills interact with one another.
- (Tertiary) Interesting stats that you will never accumulate in high enough numbers to actually make a difference.

I'm beginning to think Blizzard doesn't make the game simpler for the players, I think it's more because it makes it simpler forthem. Next expansion, stats will be totally removed and your character sheet will just reflect iLvl and everything will just work as a function of that.

Fireball - You cast a ball of flame at the target, dealing (450*iLvl) fire damage.

Killing Machine - Your auto-attacks have (iLvl/30) % chance of making your next Obliterate automagically critically strike.

[saeros]

Yes, and once primary stats have any impact on how the class actually PLAYS (skill triggers, rotations, GCD, etc), then that will matter. Until then, people will keep needing to prioritize secondary stats in order to make their class actually function.

Blizzard should stop referring to them as Primary/Secondary/Tertiary and call them what they really are:

- (Primary) Boring Raw Attributes that increase health, mana, atk/spell power, etc.
- (Secondary) Stats that actually define how your spec plays and how skills interact with one another.
- (Tertiary) Interesting stats that you will never accumulate in high enough numbers to actually make a difference.

I'm beginning to think Blizzard doesn't make the game simpler for the players, I think it's more because it makes it simpler forthem. Next expansion, stats will be totally removed and your character sheet will just reflect iLvl and everything will just work as a function of that.

Fireball - You cast a ball of flame at the target, dealing (450*iLvl) fire damage.

Killing Machine - Your auto-attacks have (iLvl/30) % chance of making your next Obliterate automagically critically strike.

it is just a number already for tons of people (people that don't actually care about how the gear and their class/spec works) and sucks for people that care about it.

[Ghrog]

"Because when everybody is nerfed...

... no-one is."