Arms Legion Discussion

[BobAwesome]

did I miss the talk about titanic might increasing CS duration by 16 seconds without a negative damage effect on ptr? would've thought it was kind of a big deal to the rng haters.

It most certainly is!

[ReD-EyeD]

Titanic Might would be really good if it wasn't on the same tier with Deadly Calm which is hard to replace.

[Artunias]

I feel like a lot of the arms changes are good and opens up the options quite a bit. The elephant in the room is Deadly Calm, and to a lesser extent Focused Rage.

Deadly Calm

1) Make it baseline at 50% reduced rage cost to all abilities during Battle Cry.
2) Increase baseline Arms resource generation

The resource generation for the spec just flat doesn't work, combined with the Tactician mechanic, without Deadly Calm. When you also have talents like Anger Management and the trinket in Nighthold you'll never be able to not choose this talent in 99% of situations. So make a weaker version of it baseline, and increase the baseline generation so that the spec can be played outside of Battle Cry windows and open up options on that tier.

Focused Rage

Focused Rage as a talent is fine. However, not having an off-gcd rage dump baseline is not. So how do we fix this? You give Arms back Heroic Strike as a baseline ability. If you talent focused rage it replaces Heroic Strike. It should be a more efficient version of heroic strike + being able to benefit from Shattered Defenses should still make it an attractive talent choice. It also fits that long fantasy of "slower, big hits" by pushing damage into the single action of MS. But the great part is as we all know you can have that playstyle without never having buttons to hit as have on live currently.

Tactician

The spec is still not balanced around eating a full 30 second Colossus Smash cooldown. If that ever happens your pull is done, you can't recover. It's also the worst feeling thing IN THE WORLD to sit there and not get any kind of mechanic for 30 seconds. It's the ONLY mechanic of the entire spec, and the only thing that allows arms to do damage in any way. 30 seconds is too much, please reduce to 20 seconds.

LESS PRESSING ISSUES

Sweeping Strikes - the talent change is good. It just needs to have the 8 yard cleave range that it's supposed to have. Nothing else to say.

Mastery - I like it increasing the damage of CS, it's kind of cool for that to becoming one of our hardest hitting abilities. We're stuck in a similar situation as we were in WoD with not being able to deal damage to other targets because of the strength of the Colossus Smash debuff. I think it would do a great service to the spec to take some strength out of the CS debuff and apply it at a smaller degree as just a flat damage buff to baseline damage. This would have the additional benefits of it being OK for CS to proc more, and at the same time not feel as bad when it doesn't proc to reduce some of the immense RNG associated with the spec.

[BobAwesome]

Finally got my second legendary... the bracers. At least along with the neck (which I still don't use over the crafted neck) the healers won't have to worry about me... right guys?

[Deleted]

I feel like a lot of the arms changes are good and opens up the options quite a bit. The elephant in the room is Deadly Calm, and to a lesser extent Focused Rage.

Deadly Calm

1) Make it baseline at 50% reduced rage cost to all abilities.
2) Increase baseline Arms resource generation

The resource generation for the spec just flat doesn't work, combined with the Tactician mechanic, without Deadly Calm. When you also have talents like Anger Management and the trinket in Nighthold you'll never be able to not choose this talent in 99% of situations. So make a weaker version of it baseline, and increase the baseline generation so that the spec can be played outside of Battle Cry windows and open up options on that tier.

Focused Rage

Focused Rage as a talent is fine. However, not having an off-gcd rage dump baseline is not. So how do we fix this? You give Arms back Heroic Strike as a baseline ability. If you talent focused rage it replaces Heroic Strike. It should be a more efficient version of heroic strike + being able to benefit from Shattered Defenses should still make it an attractive talent choice. It also fits that long fantasy of "slower, big hits" by pushing damage into the single action of MS. But the great part is as we all know you can have that playstyle without never having buttons to hit as have on live currently.

Tactician

The spec is still not balanced around eating a full 30 second Colossus Smash cooldown. If that ever happens your pull is done, you can't recover. It's also the worst feeling thing IN THE WORLD to sit there and not get any kind of mechanic for 30 seconds. It's the ONLY mechanic of the entire spec, and the only thing that allows arms to do damage in any way. 30 seconds is too much, please reduce to 20 seconds.

LESS PRESSING ISSUES

Sweeping Strikes - the talent change is good. It just needs to have the 8 yard cleave range that it's supposed to have. Nothing else to say.

Mastery - I like it increasing the damage of CS, it's kind of cool for that to becoming one of our hardest hitting abilities. We're stuck in a similar situation as we were in WoD with not being able to deal damage to other targets because of the strength of the Colossus Smash debuff. I think it would do a great service to the spec to take some strength out of the CS debuff and apply it at a smaller degree as just a flat damage buff to baseline damage. This would have the additional benefits of it being OK for CS to proc more, and at the same time not feel as bad when it doesn't proc to reduce some of the immense RNG associated with the spec.

so, basically you want arms to get buffed into OP heaven? Kappa

Why is it not ok, not to have an off GCD rage dump? Where is fury's off GCD rage dump (that increases our DPS)?

the rest sounds interesting but, as I said, all those are buffs - they won't buff arms into hitting harder than a shadow priest perfectly executing StM

[Deleted]

Arms is in a perfectly fine spot... blizzard won't buff us as we don't need any buffs in PvE. Rotation is fine as well.

[jettzypher]

You give Arms back Heroic Strike as a baseline ability.

No. Leave Heroic Strike alone. I don't know why people love this ability and want it back so damn bad...

I do agree that bringing Sweeping Strikes back to be more in line with what it used to be would be nice. I wouldn't want to suddenly see arms warriors shoot to the top of the charts of cleave and aoe, but having a little more 'umph' without needing to pop a cooldown or a pot would be nice. Deadly Calm is still ball busting. When running around doing daily stuff, I generally don't use that cooldown, so the change to Titanic Might will be useful and it could possibly help give the standard OP/Trauma/OS build some traction. It still won't beat out the FR build for end game, but the casual player may see some boosts. So, we'll see how that plays out.

Arms is in a perfectly fine spot... blizzard won't buff us as we don't need any buffs in PvE. Rotation is fine as well.

It's less of an issue of needing buffs and more of fixing class/spec mechanics that can make or break your rotation and numbers during a fight (as mentioned by many already).

[Artunias]

so, basically you want arms to get buffed into OP heaven? Kappa

Why is it not ok, not to have an off GCD rage dump? Where is fury's off GCD rage dump (that increases our DPS)?

the rest sounds interesting but, as I said, all those are buffs - they won't buff arms into hitting harder than a shadow priest perfectly executing StM

The changes would also make it easier to make adjustments to the spec. They are also nerfing arms legendaries by quite a bit in the ring and the gloves. Which is the only reason an arms warrior does well. Also the changes listed are mostly aimed at making the talents nobody uses better. The mastery change is easily tuned to be the same as it is now, but with the intent of letting arms actually be able to hit multiple targets to some degree.

The suggestions are all focused around quality of life, and tuning can be done to adjust as needed.

Fury doesn't need an off gcd rage dump. Arms has to take focused rage due to how the resources work for the spec. It doesn't have a rampage to dump its entire rage bar in one ability. IMO the spec plays fanatastically with FR and the legendary gloves. It plays like crap otherwise so that's why it needs a baseline off gcd dump, so it has the tool to manage resources.

[Anbokr]

Yeah, I went into the expac thinking ewww FR build this "playstyle" is #1 ewww.

But over time you realize the spec is pretty damn boring and also doesn't function without an off the GCD rage dump. Even if it was baseline at 15% damage, 20%, 25% it would still be fine. The spec just needs a way to dump rage quickly and FR is that answer. As a result, unless Mortal Combo or In for the Kill are grossly overtuned, FR will always be taken.

I do wish a Trauma/OpS build was somewhat viable, but the synergy between Deadly Calm, AM, and Arms' mechanics (and now the NH trinket) is just way too much. Sadboys.

[Tatsujin]

Yeah, I went into the expac thinking ewww FR build this "playstyle" is #1 ewww.

But over time you realize the spec is pretty damn boring and also doesn't function without an off the GCD rage dump. Even if it was baseline at 15% damage, 20%, 25% it would still be fine. The spec just needs a way to dump rage quickly and FR is that answer. As a result, unless Mortal Combo or In for the Kill are grossly overtuned, FR will always be taken.

I do wish a Trauma/OpS build was somewhat viable, but the synergy between Deadly Calm, AM, and Arms' mechanics (and now the NH trinket) is just way too much. Sadboys.

Don't forget the first bonus from T19 set bonus which extends BC by 3 seconds. I know they're going to nerf us once they see our numbers fly off the charts.

I had a stream going for a 11+ EoA and my AoE + single target were pretty high (exclude the last boss, Execute owns everything). One of the guildies said his Frost DK does more things or hits more but for lesser damage numbers, where I was standing at 1M-1.6M for MS/Execute he was awe'd by those numbers. So we're just pretty damn bursty especially since the secondary stats will kick in really good in NH.

i completely agree with everything you said. and for the NH pieces, i think they are just placeholderstats for now and will actually get changed (most of the stats are identical on every slot)

They need at least 4 pieces with Mastery on them because only one piece has Mastery ... Urgh ... Hopefully they will change the stats on them.

[ReD-EyeD]

Don't forget the first bonus from T19 set bonus which extends BC by 3 seconds. I know they're going to nerf us once they see our numbers fly off the charts.

I thought it was already been nerfed to 2 seconds. Might be wrong tho.

[Artunias]

The problem with the NH tier (and pretty much everything else that is deemed "OP" for Arms) is that it's only OP with the single build that is AM + DC + FR. That applies to tier, the battle cry trinket, the arms gloves. Everything that makes Arms OP is only OP with that one single build, because it's the only build that functions properly under the current design. For all the other builds the tier is kinda Meh, the trinket is kinda Meh, the gloves are kinda Meh.

They need to look at making some of that, or all of it to some degree, baseline and design options from there in the talents.

[Anbokr]

I thought it was already been nerfed to 2 seconds. Might be wrong tho.

Na, it is still 3s. You probably confused it with Fury's new Reckless Abandon that extends their battle cry by 2s.

[ReD-EyeD]

Na, it is still 3s. You probably confused it with Fury's new Reckless Abandon that extends their battle cry by 2s.

Yeah, probably. These 3 additional seconds feels so big its not even funny. I already have about ~15% of BC uptime on non-heavy mobile encounters and +3 seconds is just insane. Not like arms warriors topping the charts of everything, but the core mechanic is just wrong.

[CptEgo]

I would like a more 'exiting' Arms rotation. I can't really put my finger on it, but it's just not really satisfying. I'm looking forward to popping BC and getting those MS crits, but that's it. Maybe it's Slam. Slam is such a boring ability. They could make Slam something alittle more interesting that you actually want to use and not just a rage dump. Someone in another thread mentioned merging FR and Slam, which sounds like an awesome idea to me.

[Tatsujin]

Na, it is still 3s. You probably confused it with Fury's new Reckless Abandon that extends their battle cry by 2s.

Is 20% haste still the focal point to "try" and achieve, besides having Mastery #1 as secondary stat? I'm guessing with that we can fit in 8 GCDs with the 2 set bonus if we have 20% haste? Obviously a little higher for haste depending on someone's ping.

Also, if you have 100ms how much haste would you need for it?

[Kitaen]

~23-25% and not worth going for

[Deleted]

~23-25% and not worth going for

So with Nighthold 2set bonus it won't be worth to get the (then new) Haste breakpoint anymore?

edit: actually i dont even know if the breakpoint would change xD

[jettzypher]

So with Nighthold 2set bonus it won't be worth to get the (then new) Haste breakpoint anymore?

Especially with the changes to secondary stats, I don't think it's doable without simply sacrificing mastery. You'd likely need every single piece of gear to have mastery and haste in order to stand a chance. However, that would preclude our bis legendaries, let alone that fast that as of right now, only one piece of the set has mastery on it and it's not even paired with haste.

[Bigbazz]

Haste breakpoint with Nighthold 2set will be at around 15% (7 GCDs) and the next at around 32% (8 GCDs), not checked where MS cooldowns fit into that or mini breakpoints for abilities within CS window, but yeah that 32% is not realistic. So when we have the 2set we will achieve it passively quite easily and probably forget worrying about haste, as apposed to now where you need roughly 22% meaning you need great luck with Haste/Mastery gear drops (and/or an Arcanocrystal).