A Simple Argument for the Tinker Class

[Traveler Voltin]

Gazlowe and Mekkatorque.

We have a Monk class that is represented by Chen, the optional ally in Rexxar's DLC campaign. This is a total non issue.

And blackfuse.

[A dot Ham]

A simple argument against the tinker class: there's no reason to add them, and there never will be unless they make Goblins vs Gnomes a WoW expansion.

DKs - Added in the Lich King expansion
Monks - Added in the Pandaren expansion
DHs - Added in the Legion expansion

See a trend here? We're not going to get a random new class that has no thematic similarities with the expansion itself. Every class has had massive tie-ins with their contemporary expansion, how could they possibly do the same for "tinkers"?

The pattern MUST be maintained.

To be fair it has only been successful 2/3 times.

Monks are STILL under represented. Even in comparison to demon hunters, and they've been around for what 4 years now? 3?

Point is... releasing a new class with a thematic expansion doesn't necessarily mean it will be a successful endeavor.

[Ielenia]

The pattern MUST be maintained.

To be fair it has only been successful 2/3 times.

Monks are STILL under represented. Even in comparison to demon hunters, and they've been around for what 4 years now? 3?

Point is... releasing a new class with a thematic expansion doesn't necessarily mean it will be a successful endeavor.

It's nothing to do with a class' success, but its connection to the overall theme of the expansion. DKs were launched during the Wrath of the Lich King expansion. The overall theme of the expansion was death and undeath. Fits the Death Knights. Then come the Monks, introduced in Mists of Pandaria. The overall theme of the expansion was peace and harmony. Fits the Monk class. Then we got Demon Hunters, introduced in the Legion expansion. The overall theme of the expansion is centered about demon and their return. Fits the Demon Hunter class.

Basically, the point is that, three out of three times, a class introduced was heavily tied to their expansion's overall theme, which means it seems very unlikely that Blizzard will release a new class that doesn't fit their expansion's overall theme.

[A dot Ham]

Gazlowe and Mekkatorque.

We have a Monk class that is represented by Chen, the optional ally in Rexxar's DLC campaign. This is a total non issue.

@Ravingmad

Also most classes have been developed based on (as you have mentioned) from WC I,II,III, or rather heroes from those games.

Just as the monk was Chen aka the neutral mercenary Brewmaster hero from WCIII. (Which actually an entire expansion race and lore was created from this one inconsequential character)

There is a goblin alchemist, and a goblin tinker. http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutral/

The question is, is there enough demand for said class. I think there is some... probably more interest than the amount of people interested in legacy servers. I would much rather have another class... then have the ability to play bastardized retro world of warcraft.

- - - Updated - - -

It's nothing to do with a class' success, but its connection to the overall theme of the expansion. DKs were launched during the Wrath of the Lich King expansion. The overall theme of the expansion was death and undeath. Fits the Death Knights. Then come the Monks, introduced in Mists of Pandaria. The overall theme of the expansion was peace and harmony. Fits the Monk class. Then we got Demon Hunters, introduced in the Legion expansion. The overall theme of the expansion is centered about demon and their return. Fits the Demon Hunter class.

Basically, the point is that, three out of three times, a class introduced was heavily tied to their expansion's overall theme, which means it seems very unlikely that Blizzard will release a new class that doesn't fit their expansion's overall theme.

Ya... I got that.

My point is "Who said it has to be that way."

I went on to make the point that recipe... isn't exactly a recipe for success. So why maintain the pattern?

[Deleted]

It could be argued that part of the reason Goblins and Gnomes aren't as popular is because they seem strongly out of place in WoW. While Goblins make great Rogues, and Gnomes are cool Mages, their high tech backgrounds really set them apart from the rest of the races.

They do have a well-established place on Azeroth. I remember gnomish flying machines and goblin zeppelins from WC2. It was always part of the story that tech was provided by dwarves and gnomes for the Alliance and by the goblins for the Horde.

I know part of the reason I've never made a Gnome or Goblin character is because its pretty jarring to have a Goblin Warrior driving around in a car.

All my toons happily ride the PWN bike. There are steam tanks in Stormwind, robot harvesters in Westfall and demolishers in Orgrimmar. I really don't think it's the steampunkish flavour that makes the problem. It's the format. A midget death knight tank looks plain ridiculous. The whole class fantasy of slow but unstoppable juggernaut is killed immediately not by the high tech background but by the very posture of the character. The whole "time is money friend" gets old lightning-fast, "my, you're a tall one" ever faster.

People clearly like Blizzard's concept of Gnomes and Goblins if Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm are any indication. I think they just need a class that better fits their unique history.

Hearthstone is completely different format. That's the trick i think. You do not assume 3rd person view half lower than all the others, you don't get to heal a tank who is not even visible in the trash pack because he barely reaches the mobs' knees.

Additionally, limiting the class to two races really allows Blizzard to enhance the class flavor, as Demon Hunters aptly demonstrated.

Errr, my own feeling is that if anything could kill the class before it even reached live, it's forcing people to play midgets or give up the class.

Well a Tinker tank could alternatively use shields out of mech mode, and have a mech as a cooldown. Perhaps the duration of that form is extended, or the cooldown is decreased. As an aside, I will say that the mechs showcased by Mekkatorque in Legion would be a great look for such a class mechanic.

Yip. There are many ways to approach that and various preferences. However, the idea would need to take off the ground at all in the first place...

[Ielenia]

I went on to make the point that recipe... isn't exactly a recipe for success. So why maintain the pattern?

Well, on that regard, 2 out of 3 still success, so the "recipe" kinda works. Besides, what's your opinion on this: do you think it's better the class being introduced feels natural to the overall story of the expansion; or do you think it'd be better if the class didn't "belong" in the overall story of the expansion?

Do you think Monks would be more or less successful if they were introduced during, say, Cataclysm, or Wrath? Do you think DKs would be more or less successful if they were introduced during, for example, MoP, or BC?

[Teriz]

Yip. There are many ways to approach that and various preferences. However, the idea would need to take off the ground at all in the first place...

Well the idea has clearly taken off. There's a lot of Tinker class threads on this forum and other WoW related classes, and the majority of the respondants tend to have a favorable view of the class.

Gelbin popping up in a mech suit really reignited this entire discussion.

[A dot Ham]

It could be argued that part of the reason Goblins and Gnomes aren't as popular is because they seem strongly out of place in WoW. While Goblins make great Rogues, and Gnomes are cool Mages, their high tech backgrounds really set them apart from the rest of the races. I know part of the reason I've never made a Gnome or Goblin character is because its pretty jarring to have a Goblin Warrior driving around in a car.

People clearly like Blizzard's concept of Gnomes and Goblins if Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm are any indication. I think they just need a class that better fits their unique history.

Additionally, limiting the class to two races really allows Blizzard to enhance the class flavor, as Demon Hunters aptly demonstrated.



Well a Tinker tank could alternatively use shields out of mech mode, and have a mech as a cooldown. Perhaps the duration of that form is extended, or the cooldown is decreased. As an aside, I will say that the mechs showcased by Mekkatorque in Legion would be a great look for such a class mechanic.

I temporarily changed to a goblin shaman in cataclysm. I love crafted totems, from an RP standpoint (not that I actually RP) but I thought it was clever to imagine that they could use technology to synthesize or create similar effects of a shaman.

I had my rocket boots, my shield belt, and my rocket launcher gloves.

That fantasy was quickly destroyed when they made engineering irrelevant again. I had... mech-totems. Woooooo

[Ielenia]

Errr, my own feeling is that if anything could kill the class before it even reached live, it's forcing people to play midgets or give up the class.

I'm going to preempt this before @Teriz mentions Demon Hunters: Blood Elves are the #1 most played race on the Horde, and Night Elves are the #2 most played Alliance race. Discounting the Pandaren, Goblins and Gnomes are the #1 least played race in both factions. I really don't see how making a class exclusive to the two least played races in the game could be a 'good marketing decision'. Would it boost the number of people playing said races? Yeah, it would, but I believe it'd be by a small margin, and the class would end up even less represented than monks because of that. Goblins and Gnomes aren't the least played race just because they have little lore. To be honest, I think that's one of the last reasons people don't pick either race. I think most don't like the "lawn gnome" or "gremlin" designs. Some don't like the cutesy voice of the gnomes, others just don't like short races, etc. The fact is, lore is not the main reason those races are underrepresented, and to claim so is dishonest.

[A dot Ham]

Well, on that regard, 2 out of 3 still success, so the "recipe" kinda works. Besides, what's your opinion on this: do you think it's better the class being introduced feels natural to the overall story of the expansion; or do you think it'd be better if the class didn't "belong" in the overall story of the expansion?

Do you think Monks would be more or less successful if they were introduced during, say, Cataclysm, or Wrath? Do you think DKs would be more or less successful if they were introduced during, for example, MoP, or BC?

66% is a success?... on a grade scale that's a solid D.

Which is barely passing.

No... not a success.

In regards to your question... I think WoW is still very much riding the coat tails of WCIII.

So yes, I think regardless of the theme of the expansion, regardless of when they were implemented DKs and DHs would have been a success no matter when they released them.

To add to this I think one of the main reasons Monks have been underrepresented is because they still don't feel like they fit thematically in Azeroth. Ya that very much made sense in pandaria, outside of that continent... they feel like a fish out of water. Even their armor sets tend to make them look apart from the rest of us. A diablo monk... would feel much more appropriate in WC than the current monks do. Where else throughout Azeroth have we seen Monks and the influence of Pandaren? Nowhere?

What about mechs? Durotar, westfall, gnomeregan, orgimmar, gadgetzan, everlook, iron forge

The theme exists, and is something we are already familiar with.

A tinker could be released with a small content patch (new dungeon). It could be released mid xpac, completely on its own. I don't think it matters. Either way the people that want it... would play it.

But claiming that it wouldn't be a success, because there isn't evidence that it would be. Simply because it hasn't been done, whilst hiding behind evidence that doesn't actually support your own position is what is known as a logical fallacy.

[tikcol]

...How...? "Oh look, demons are back, lets get the engineers..." Makes sense, right? /sarcasm

Add tinkers, forget Legion, create a real expansion, don't add demon hunters /veryserious

[Teriz]

I temporarily changed to a goblin shaman in cataclysm. I love crafted totems, from an RP standpoint (not that I actually RP) but I thought it was clever to imagine that they could use technology to synthesize or create similar effects of a shaman.

I had my rocket boots, my shield belt, and my rocket launcher gloves.

That fantasy was quickly destroyed when they made engineering irrelevant again. I had... mech-totems. Woooooo

Well that's what I'm saying, there is a demand for a technology based class in WoW because of the lore behind Goblins and Gnomes. That demand can be increased or decreased depending on the implementation of that class.

[Thimagryn]

Add tinkers, forget Legion, create a real expansion, don't add demon hunters /veryserious

Hearthstone is that way ->

[Ielenia]

66% is a success?... on a grade scale that's a solid D.

Which is barely passing.

No... not a success.

That would make more sense if the "two out of three" was a reduced average, but it's not. It's literally three times said formula was used. Also, arguably, one of the main reasons Monks weren't well received is the whole "lol pandas" and "kung-fu panda ripoff" childish nonsense that plagued MoP.

[A dot Ham]

Well that's what I'm saying, there is a demand for a technology based class in WoW because of the lore behind Goblins and Gnomes. That demand can be increased or decreased depending on the implementation of that class.

I'm with you completely. Bring on the tinker(er)s.

- - - Updated - - -

That would make more sense if the "two out of three" was a reduced average, but it's not. It's literally three times said formula was used. Also, arguably, one of the main reasons Monks weren't well received is the whole "lol pandas" and "kung-fu panda ripoff" childish nonsense that plagued MoP.

That is an opinion and you have zero evidence to support that. While that might account for hatred of Pandaren... but monks weren't limited to Pandaren in MoP so even if I/we accepted that argument it falls flat for all other race choices. (I play a gnome monk btw and am considering leveling it for mistweaver PvP for season 2)

There are plenty of people that HATE elves for example. Plenty of horde people that hate that horde ended up with bloodelves, and that hasn't seemed to have had any effect on the representation of DHs in Legion.

[Deleted]

I'm going to preempt this before @Teriz mentions Demon Hunters: Blood Elves are the #1 most played race on the Horde, and Night Elves are the #2 most played Alliance race. Discounting the Pandaren, Goblins and Gnomes are the #1 least played race in both factions. I really don't see how making a class exclusive to the two least played races in the game could be a 'good marketing decision'.

Er, actually I already raised this point.

Would it boost the number of people playing said races? Yeah, it would, but I believe it'd be by a small margin, and the class would end up even less represented than monks because of that. Goblins and Gnomes aren't the least played race just because they have little lore. To be honest, I think that's one of the last reasons people don't pick either race. I think most don't like the "lawn gnome" or "gremlin" designs. Some don't like the cutesy voice of the gnomes, others just don't like short races, etc. The fact is, lore is not the main reason those races are underrepresented, and to claim so is dishonest.

Quite definitely so for me. Which also ties into the idea of introducing the tinkers in a whole midget xpac. Up to now, especially gnomes were mostly a comical break every now and again unless you played one or a dwarf (crap, dwarves are the second least played Alliance race, have they been afflicted with the Gnomish Kiss Of Death?). You know, all the cosmic horrors in Arcatraz and suddenly A Lowly Gnome. TTOC: giant magnataur, even bigger jormungar, suddenly a midget lock summons an Eredar lord and gets squashed for his efforts. By the time the Manastorm's sister appears, the joke is firmly established. Lots of doom and world-ending shit, suddenly oh look, a gnome, lol. Now if there was suddenly a fairly serious expansion strongly focussed on them, where you spend a lot of end-game time working with the lawn gnomes with pipsqueak voices all the time around you or with gremlins calling you "champ" every minute... er, I have a baaaad feeling about this.

[Teriz]

Oh look teriz got summoned and he is still spiteful. Let it go man. Just be glad tinkers now have a better chance at happening

I agree, which is why I'm perfectly fine with what happened in Legion. As I said, the blueprint for a Tinker class is far more clearer now than it was before this expansion. I think we're looking at a Goblin and Gnome class that rides in mechs and use a variety of high tech weaponry. Could even possibly be a four spec class to make up for the two-spec DH.

[A dot Ham]

...How...? "Oh look, demons are back, lets get the engineers..." Makes sense, right? /sarcasm

Aren't we heading to space next? Pretty sure you're gonna need them goblin/gnome engineers... er umm Tinker(er)s.

[tikcol]

Hearthstone is that way ->

Hearthstone is a horrible game, I wouldn't want to go there

[Ielenia]

That is an opinion and you have zero evidence to support that. While that might account for hatred of Pandaren... but monks weren't limited to Pandaren in MoP so even if I/we accepted that argument it falls flat for all other race choices. (I play a gnome monk btw and am considering leveling it for mistweaver PvP for season 2)

You accuse me of using my opinion.... then go an use your opinion as argument. Double-standard much?

There are plenty of people that HATE elves for example. Plenty of horde people that hate that horde ended up with bloodelves, and that hasn't seemed to have had any effect on the representation of DHs in Legion.

You do know that, despite the hate, even before Legion, Blood Elves already were the #1 most played race in the Horde, right? In face, according to WoW Census, Blood Elves have surpassed Humans and are now the #1 most played race in the whole game.

- - - Updated - - -

Aren't we heading to space next? Pretty sure you're gonna need them goblin/gnome engineers... er umm Tinker(er)s.

Or! Or... maybe just all we need is what we always used for long-distance travels? Mages, and portal made by mages? Did you forget about the Dark Portal, connecting Outland to Azeroth? Or when it briefly connected AU Draenor to our Azeroth? Or Khadgar opening brief portals between AU Draenor and our Azeroth...

"Tinkers" won't be needed for that.