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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    I would totally use another option in that row if we actually had it. But can I? No. Why? Because the other 2 options are bad(and even worse now thanks to AS nerf) AND I have both Akainu and Eye of the Twisting Nether(got yesterday).

    I tried AS many times and the spec feels really good because of the lower GCD, but it becomes way too simple, still an option for those that want simple things. Now we could have a third option, maybe a mix of both passive and active, maybe another frost talent, maybe a big CD. Nope...

    So yea, I'm gonna complain that in order for them to "balance", their way of thinking is nerf what everyone uses for the other options become "viable", 100% lazy.
    If we're going by your logic, Landslide must be pretty boring too and you'd hate to use it because its just a passive thats the best out of all 3 choices. What about tempest? Another passive thats the best out of the 3 choices. Crashing Storm? Hoh looky looky, another passive thats currently the best out of 3.
    In all 3 rows that I've just mentioned, all talents got buffed or nerfed to some extent.
    Personally speaking: we still have MORE buttons to press than most classes. Even if you take a completely passive build, its still more than most classes have.
    Also, there is absolutely no reason to complain about a "boring" second option. Even Hailstorm in itself is fully passive to some extent. Lightning Shield just adds 1 button every hour, while Hailstorm adds a button every 13~ seconds into the rotation. I dont see the difference in there besides "its more to manage".
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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    I would totally use another option in that row if we actually had it. But can I? No. Why? Because the other 2 options are bad(and even worse now thanks to AS nerf) AND I have both Akainu and Eye of the Twisting Nether(got yesterday).

    I tried AS many times and the spec feels really good because of the lower GCD, but it becomes way too simple, still an option for those that want simple things. Now we could have a third option, maybe a mix of both passive and active, maybe another frost talent, maybe a big CD. Nope...

    So yea, I'm gonna complain that in order for them to "balance", their way of thinking is nerf what everyone uses for the other options become "viable", 100% lazy.
    well they did say that they plan on baking things in too...yes they havent done it yet...but have they done it with any classes(maybe aside from mages)? What if the nerf was to see how it felt at that damage to make HS baseline. Which honestly would make sense to me personally. I'm a new shaman as of this expansion so maybe im way off base...but designing two legendaries to basically force HS would make me feel it should be one of the things they're considering making baseline.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Darleth View Post
    Also, there is absolutely no reason to complain about a "boring" second option. Even Hailstorm in itself is fully passive to some extent. Lightning Shield just adds 1 button every hour, while Hailstorm adds a button every 13~ seconds into the rotation. I dont see the difference in there besides "its more to manage".
    I'd say that considering Hailstorm as a passives is a pretty long shot that don't make sense.
    Everything that is, is alive.

    Agaor - Enhancement Shaman

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Darleth View Post
    If we're going by your logic, Landslide must be pretty boring too and you'd hate to use it because its just a passive thats the best out of all 3 choices. What about tempest? Another passive thats the best out of the 3 choices. Crashing Storm? Hoh looky looky, another passive thats currently the best out of 3.
    In all 3 rows that I've just mentioned, all talents got buffed or nerfed to some extent.
    Personally speaking: we still have MORE buttons to press than most classes. Even if you take a completely passive build, its still more than most classes have.
    Also, there is absolutely no reason to complain about a "boring" second option. Even Hailstorm in itself is fully passive to some extent. Lightning Shield just adds 1 button every hour, while Hailstorm adds a button every 13~ seconds into the rotation. I dont see the difference in there besides "its more to manage".
    Stop being dense, please. Tempest, Crashing storm and Landslide did not get nerfed, they buffed the other options, which is EXACTLY what I wanted for the HS row. I would totally use earth spike, fury of the air or sundering if they were better and maybe I will now, who knows.

    Boulderfist should have its damage nerfed a bit and made baseline, feral lunge baseline, lightning shield back to baseline but only trigger when attacked and nerf the damage. Enhanc needs more BUILDS, because right now with the talents and legs we have, we are locked into one static build.

  5. #105
    "Landslide is boring as hell and it sucks that it is the best" is actually something people say all the time on the Shaman Discord so I don't know why you're implying it's a ridiculous sentiment. There actually are people who miss Ascendance.

  6. #106
    So as of the 30th - both Hailstorm and FoA nerfed a bit. Does enhancement have one key thing to look forward to here?

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    "Landslide is boring as hell and it sucks that it is the best" is actually something people say all the time on the Shaman Discord so I don't know why you're implying it's a ridiculous sentiment. There actually are people who miss Ascendance.
    I'm one of the people that does not like landslide I'd much rather be using ascendance. Imo you shouldn't be rewarded for doing less. And more importantly a 3 min cool own should not feel as lack luster as ascendance does not especially when it s a lv 100 talent.

  8. #108
    Deleted
    I still don't understand why is lightning shield a talent...its like making druid thorns a talent...(it is a pvp talent though).

    This kind of "uh we are already out of ideas,lets do what we do all the time, lets pretend to remove an ability and introduce back again to make it new!!Okay lightning shield put it as a talent and call it a day!" is really irritating.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth View Post

    If a single talent does almost 1/5 of our total damage, does that not show that it's overpowered?
    i hope this was a joke comment.

    This is totally the wrong way of looking at balancing.

    "If Ignite deals more then 1/5 of mages total damage, does that not show that its overpowered?"

    "If Aimed Shot deals more then 1/5 of hunters total damage, does that not show that it's overpowered?"

  10. #110
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    Buffing the other choices won't make the spec overpowered, wtf is this way of thinking? But nerfing the best option is A OVERALL NERF, because no matter what you chose, you will do less damage than before. No, hailstorm did not deserve a nerf. This "small" nerf is around 30% to hailstorm, how can you say it's small?

    Keep using hailstorm or use one of the other 2 talents, no matter what you chose, it's less damage than before, in other words, a nerf to a spec far from overpowered that didn't need a nerf at all.
    I say small because Hailstorm is a talent that scales very, very well with every one of our stats. If they didn't nerf it, the damage would get even more out of hand, and this is the only way you can attempt to make the two other talents at least somewhat competitive. Sure, you could choose to buff the two others, but in this case they decided to reduce the damage of Hailstorm, while they are buffing talents in other rows instead. In the end it should even out to be near the same.

    You also need to take into account that these kind of changes are happening on all classes right now, so unless you've PTR'ed every single DPS, you can't really say how we compare to other classes when the changes actually go live.

    It's true, if you stick to the same old rotation in 7.1.5, then you are probably going to see less DPS than you do now. But that might be the case for everyone else as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darleth View Post
    Also Lightning Shield got buffed. Its sitting on 27k~ for me. The real question here is: will LS become BETTER than HS or not in terms of raw damage gain.
    It probably wont - or at least, it shouldn't. Since LS is a passive ability, I'm fine with it doing less damage than Hailstorm, since you litterally just click it once and then forget about it.

    Let's try and math out Hailstorm vs Lightning Shield. My most recent Guarm fight was 4:16 minutes long, or 256 seconds. In that time, I had 540 applications of Hailstorm. That evens out to 2.1 applications per second.

    If your Hailstorm hits for 11,2k, then that means that Hailstorm is adding 23.625 DPS.
    If your Lightning Shield hits for 27k, with a 1.5 ICD, then that means it's adding 18.000.
    That is a difference of 5.625 damage between the two talents.

    Keep in mind that this is very rough math. Hailstorm scales better than Lightning Shield does, but I think a 5k DPS difference is fine, considering we are doing 300k+ DPS. It's less than 2% difference in overall DPS, assuming the numbers are correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by skitzy129 View Post
    Haven't really been paying close attention to the patch, what's the tl;dr for Enhance?

    What I've gathered is that nothing notable has been buffed and Hailstorm does less damage so overall we're just marginally weaker.
    Quite a few buffs, really. Sundering and Earthen Spike got some really nice buffs, FOA is now a strong alternative to Crashing Storm and Ascendance might be a viable alternative to Landslide.

    The only nerfs we've seen so far are nerfs to Boulderfist (longer recharge time) and Hailstorm (less damage), but that was done to bring them a little closer to the other talents on that tier. Pretty much everything else is untouched or buffed.

    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    Two of our legendaries require hailstorm, one of them being bis. The tuning was necessary for the other options, not the other way around. They simply nerfed a build for the sake of nerfing, because it wasn't necessary. "Booo hoo I read his 2 last posts and he's all doom and glooming", gimme a break.

    The most stupid talent ever still there and now even nerfed instead of replacing it with something more interesting, can't really say they are trying. Stop trying to tune lightning shield, nobody uses or cares about it, even blizz said they would remove/replace talents nobody ever picked, guess it was small talk.
    The problem is that you are adding nothing to the conversation except your negative bias towards Blizzard. Fact of the matter is, they have done good on their promises so far, but you seem to expect that every PTR deployment is the last there will ever be, when it's very likely that we will still see one, maybe two more patches on the PTR. A lot can still change.

    So instead of just repeating the same whine over and over again, how about you view these changes from a fresh perspective and try and look for new oppotunities within your class.

    Don't use Legendaries as an argument for why they shouldn't nerf a talent. If you are lucky enough to get a good legendary then you are still going to be doing more damage than one who is running around with Prydaz, even if Hailstorm took a hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by RuneDK View Post
    I mean, I know they want us to have viable options for talents...but they designed two legendaries(that could possibly be must haves in 7.1.5) around being forced to take hailstorm.
    Allow me to repeat this for good measure:

    Don't use Legendaries as an argument for why they shouldn't nerf a talent. If you are lucky enough to get a good legendary then you are still going to be doing more damage than one who is running around with Prydaz, even if Hailstorm took a hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    Stop being dense, please. Tempest, Crashing storm and Landslide did not get nerfed, they buffed the other options, which is EXACTLY what I wanted for the HS row. I would totally use earth spike, fury of the air or sundering if they were better and maybe I will now, who knows.

    Boulderfist should have its damage nerfed a bit and made baseline, feral lunge baseline, lightning shield back to baseline but only trigger when attacked and nerf the damage. Enhanc needs more BUILDS, because right now with the talents and legs we have, we are locked into one static build.
    And we are getting excactly that, more builds. But you can't expect them to buff everything - they have nerfed and buffed other classes as well, not just us. In my eyes it makes more sense that the later tiers are stronger talents than earlier tiers are, so bringing down HS and buffing LS is not a bad call.

    I do disagree that Boulderfist should be made baseline - because some might want to have a GCD locked spec. If Boulderfist is baseline, then you are taking a variation away from people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribs View Post
    So as of the 30th - both Hailstorm and FoA nerfed a bit. Does enhancement have one key thing to look forward to here?
    Oh god, not another one. Did you miss the part where they first trippled FOA's damage from 30% to 90%, and then reduced the Maelstrom cost from 5 to 3 MS per second? Only after these changes did they reduce FOA's damage to 52% - but you are still looking at an incredible buff to FOA overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rahkhun View Post
    i hope this was a joke comment.

    This is totally the wrong way of looking at balancing.

    "If Ignite deals more then 1/5 of mages total damage, does that not show that its overpowered?"

    "If Aimed Shot deals more then 1/5 of hunters total damage, does that not show that it's overpowered?"
    I sure hope you are joking. Ignite is a mastery, and aimed shot is a baseline ability. Of course they should have a big impact on the damage. Hailstorm, on the other hand, is a talent, a choice, and so it should be balanced around other talents. You're comparing apples to oranges (and bananas to boot!).

  11. #111
    There's no rule for later talent tiers to be stronger, that's just your justification for that nerf. There's no new opportunities for me in that row because of my legendaries, I'm locked into HS. And we are almost GCD locked even with boulderfist, I have yet to see something who prefers rockbiter.

    Yes, I'm looking forward for the other changes, even though they didn't bake anything into the spec like they said they would, or remove things that nobody ever picked. I don't see us getting more builds really. The only row where things are actually more interesting is the CL, sundering and FoA one. Sure, earthen spike got a decent buff, but I always saw that talent more PvP oriented and it's funny, because since it's a active talent, I was hoping it would be better than landslide, same for ascendance.

  12. #112
    Deleted
    True, that is entirely my own bias towards talents. I prefer that talents have a meaningful impact while leveling up, and the further down in the tree you are, the bigger impact the talents have. But even if Blizzard does not share this design philosophy, Hailstorm was still too powerful for what it did. It was either a damage decrease or a MS increase.

    But yes, I think the nerf to Hailstorm is justified. It's fine if you disagree, but I think this thread shows that the majority of people are not surprised that Hailstorm got nerfed.

    So let me get this straight. You have the two very powerful legendaries for enhancement shamans. One is BIS and the other one has quite the potential next patch due to the buff to Lava Lash. And you are complaining that you are going to see a small reduction in your overall damage? You are still doing significantly more damage than I could do, because I'm just running around with a Prydaz around my neck. You are more than welcome to NOT use your Legendaries, or to select a different talent, but if you stick with Hailstorm, you are still going to significantly more damage than someone who doesn't have two of the most powerful Legendaries for our class.

    Strictly speaking, you don't need Hailstorm for your legendaries. You can cast Frostbrand every 8 seconds and still benefit from both your legendaries. It's arguably easier with Hailstorm, since you only have to refresh it half the time compared to if you didn't have it, but Hailstorm is definitely not a requirement.

    I feel like I need to repeat this: Don't use Legendaries as an argument for why they shouldn't nerf a talent. If you are lucky enough to get a good legendary then you are still going to be doing more damage than one who is running around with Prydaz, even if Hailstorm took a hit.

    Edit: Remember that Akainu's Absolute Justice got buffed on PTR, from 30% to 50%.

    even though they didn't bake anything into the spec like they said they would
    Yet.

    or remove things that nobody ever picked
    Yet.

    I don't see us getting more builds really.
    I disagree with this. After the second round of balancing, a lot of the talents are quite closer to each other. As you can see in my post above (using very rough math), there's probably only a 5k DPS difference between Hailstorm and Lightning Shield, which is perfectly fine for an active versus a passive skill. That means that if someone can not manage another active ability, they can choose LS without hurting too much.

    We should probably define what a "build" is. It could be a set of talents centered around an element (like I suggested in a different thread earlier), or it could be one or two talents that drastically alters your playstyle. I define it mostly as the second one.

    For example, selecting Earthen Spike and Sundering sets you up with a pretty heavy hitting Single Target build. Selecting Windsong and Ascendence sets you up with a burst build. Or Fury of Air and Ascensral Swiftness sets you up with a powerful AOE focused build.

    I've just picked two talents for each spec, but just two talents drastically alters the playstyle. Of course, numbers still need tuning, but from where I'm looking it seems like we are getting closer to having distinct single target and AOE builds - or we can pick something in between if we want to be able to switch it up mid fight.
    Last edited by mmoc1d3ba0029e; 2016-12-01 at 04:04 PM.

  13. #113
    At this point I think they should just remove Landslide and make a new talent in its place, If it added another buff to track it could be cool, but as it stands now, it could be a true passive and it wouldn't make a difference as just playing normally makes you not drop it anyway.
    Everything that is, is alive.

    Agaor - Enhancement Shaman

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth View Post
    It probably wont - or at least, it shouldn't. Since LS is a passive ability, I'm fine with it doing less damage than Hailstorm, since you litterally just click it once and then forget about it.

    Let's try and math out Hailstorm vs Lightning Shield. My most recent Guarm fight was 4:16 minutes long, or 256 seconds. In that time, I had 540 applications of Hailstorm. That evens out to 2.1 applications per second.

    If your Hailstorm hits for 11,2k, then that means that Hailstorm is adding 23.625 DPS.
    If your Lightning Shield hits for 27k, with a 1.5 ICD, then that means it's adding 18.000.
    That is a difference of 5.625 damage between the two talents.

    Keep in mind that this is very rough math. Hailstorm scales better than Lightning Shield does, but I think a 5k DPS difference is fine, considering we are doing 300k+ DPS. It's less than 2% difference in overall DPS, assuming the numbers are correct.
    Lightning Shield doesn't have an ICD. It's just a straight percentage of all melee attacks

    10:56:11> Your Lightning Shield hit Raider's Training Dummy 31304 Nature.
    10:56:11> Your Windfury Attack hit Raider's Training Dummy 18335 Physical.
    10:56:11> Your Lightning Shield hit Raider's Training Dummy 31305 Nature

    Procs from LL, SS and WF but not from Boulderfist, Flametongue, Stormlash, Horrific Slam, or Mark of the Hidden Satyr. Appears to have a 20% proc rate but my testing was pretty cursory.

  15. #115
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth View Post
    You can't really compare two talents like that. Frozen Pulse applies to just auto attacks, while Hailstorm applies to ALL melee attacks. I daresay we have "a few" more applications of Hailstorm than Frost DK's have of Frozen Pulse in any given fight.

    I just found a random Frost DK with Frozen Pulze. On a mythic Guarm kill (4 minutes), he had 134* applications of Frozen Pulse. On our Guarm kill last night (4:16 minutes, on normal though), I had 540 applications of Hailstorm. Frozen Pulse was 7.78% of his total damage, while Hailstorm was 15.53% of my total damage.

    * I don't know Frost DKs very much, but I notice he has 238 melee swings, though only 134 applications of Frozen Pulse. I'd assume that they keep their runes on cooldown, so Frozen Pulse should be up most of the time - which means I don't quite know why there is such a big gap between his Frozen Pulse applications and his melee swings. Even if we counted all of his melee swings, I still have almost twice as many applications of Hailstorm.



    It's pretty much a coin toss - do they nerf one talent or buff two others? In this case, they went for the nerf, which makes sense because Hailstorm is such a big part of our damage, and how it scales for us. But in the case of our level 100 talents, for example, they buffed the two underperforming talents instead of nerfing Landslide.

    You can still play your preferred build - so far the only changes are the cooldown on Boulderfist and a small nerf to Hailstorm, but your rotation remains the same if you want to stick with what you know.

    But let's remember that these might not be the last changes. It's still just PTR, and we might see more changes to shamans overall.
    That makes no sense what so ever. If that´s the case, they should focus on nerfing stormstrike than, it´s about 33% of our dmg... No, let´s stay serious for now. The only thing you want to look at when ballancing out the talent tree is the dmg a talent in the talent tree is giving you and the other coices you have in that given tier. And if you nerf the best option, you just nerf the entire spec just to make the choices more within that tier more ballanced. There are no cointosses to be made, if you want to keep the specs strength and don´t want to overcomplicate things by nerfing and buffing different tiers to get the same overall dps in the end there is just one proper way to work on ballancing the talent tree. And that is to buff and make other options more appealing, not those we have worse.
    Last edited by mmoc5e86aa8f04; 2016-12-01 at 06:50 PM.

  16. #116
    The biggest problem is hailstorm is a must have if you want to use legendary ring/ bracer bracer.

    If they nerf hailstorm to deal less damage than other talent choice the all shamam who own ring or bracer will stuck with lower dps talant.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribs View Post
    So as of the 30th - both Hailstorm and FoA nerfed a bit. Does enhancement have one key thing to look forward to here?
    Still being a strong spec isn't good enough? FoA isn't nerfed, it's still a buff from live. Don't be overly dramatic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Huanak View Post
    The biggest problem is hailstorm is a must have if you want to use legendary ring/ bracer bracer.

    If they nerf hailstorm to deal less damage than other talent choice the all shamam who own ring or bracer will stuck with lower dps talant.
    HS from what I have gathered from numerous people will still be the best performance talent. It won't be so lopsided now due to being nerfed. I would rather them buff AS/LS than nerf HS but we got buffs around other tiers to make viable choices now instead of being locked into one specific build like currently. I wish they'd make HS baseline personally....then it would make more sense with the two legendaries that force taking the talent.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Rouncer View Post
    Lightning Shield doesn't have an ICD. It's just a straight percentage of all melee attacks

    10:56:11> Your Lightning Shield hit Raider's Training Dummy 31304 Nature.
    10:56:11> Your Windfury Attack hit Raider's Training Dummy 18335 Physical.
    10:56:11> Your Lightning Shield hit Raider's Training Dummy 31305 Nature

    Procs from LL, SS and WF but not from Boulderfist, Flametongue, Stormlash, Horrific Slam, or Mark of the Hidden Satyr. Appears to have a 20% proc rate but my testing was pretty cursory.
    Correct, they removed the ICD at some point during the beta I believe. Also the proc chance is 20%, as seen in the spell data:

    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=192106/lightning-shield

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth View Post
    Strictly speaking, you don't need Hailstorm for your legendaries. You can cast Frostbrand every 8 seconds and still benefit from both your legendaries. It's arguably easier with Hailstorm, since you only have to refresh it half the time compared to if you didn't have it, but Hailstorm is definitely not a requirement.
    Woow, that's some bullshit right there. Of course you have to use HS if you have those legendaries. Bla bla bla you are free to do whatever you want argument, yea yea...

    Instead of lightning shield, they should make a new frost talent, kinda like lava lash/stormstrike/boulder fist. Truly weaving nature, fire, frost and physical damage would be pretty neat, instead of just frostbrand and that's it. Or maybe replace landslide with it which is a 0 fun talent that we all just use because it's the performance option.

    The ascendance buff was kinda weird as well in my opinion. More maelstrom is good, but it's not like we need it. We will end up spamming lava lash more which doesn't make much sense while we just transformed into some kind of lightning element, unless maybe lava lash got replaced by something else during ascendance that does more damage and does nature damage.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    There's no rule for later talent tiers to be stronger, that's just your justification for that nerf. There's no new opportunities for me in that row because of my legendaries, I'm locked into HS. And we are almost GCD locked even with boulderfist, I have yet to see something who prefers rockbiter.

    Yes, I'm looking forward for the other changes, even though they didn't bake anything into the spec like they said they would, or remove things that nobody ever picked. I don't see us getting more builds really. The only row where things are actually more interesting is the CL, sundering and FoA one. Sure, earthen spike got a decent buff, but I always saw that talent more PvP oriented and it's funny, because since it's a active talent, I was hoping it would be better than landslide, same for ascendance.
    I prefer rockbiter I'd rather have the other talents in line with boulderfist so I can have a choice of the playstyle I want without sacrificing significant damage

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