It seems WoD didn't do that bad

[Jewsco]

Why should i trust a site that might not track everything?

Exactly and one can play with numbers anyway. What one can truely take from that is when content is new people play more and as it gets older less and less do it. Wow what a groundbreaking study

[Deleted]

Legion just isn't that good hate to say it because it was really fun for 1-2 months.

I'd say quite a bit of the levelling is good. Val'sharah is, at least to me, overall better than any levelling zone to date (because it's the whole Emerald Nightmare xpac axed like hell and squeezed into one zone). Just don't tell anyone, I'm mostly playing the unrelenting hater here.

The player base is very noticeably declining because max level is just flat out boring.

For me it's mostly unrewarding and unsatisfying.

The questing and initial playthru was really fun, The artifact system was interesting and There were a ton of dungeons that looked cool and were fun.

I stopped liking the AP ramp up very soon tbh. Too quickly did my best AP tokens start yielding a single pixel on the bar.

Then people got max level and slowly figured out that everything was repetitive and boring.

Repetitiveness itself doesn't have to lead straight to boredom. Sunsong Ranch was as repetitive as it can get. I loved it. Panda dailies were repetitive AF, I didn't hate them at all. Timeless Isle was repetitive. I did like it.

World quests are boring,

I wouldn't say that. They do change more than any other grind content so far, some are not even of the Kill-N-mobs-gather-M-items format, you have Kirin Tor puzzles and squirrel catching after all. Trick is, so many of them have no noticeable reward of themselves and involve a considerable amount of travel without flight. Ripping bounties off RoS had a potential, but the only ripped half of the thing and forgot the basics: reward has to be desirable vs efffort, travel to quest location cannot be a trial of patience, any mobs that aggro and won't let go should yield some reward for killing. In WoW you only get noticeable reward from some dailies. When I log in, look at the emissary and see that half the quests are yielding 80gp or something like that, I just don't bother. After all, one BoS is 3 roses 105gp each without the taxi, navigating the shitty terrain, circumventing or needlessly killing all the trash on the way.

Mythic+ is literally just the same instance scaled up over and over gets boring,

It used to be just heroic for us plebs and challenger mode for tryhards. Not too horrible, frankly. What's really bad is that to progress beyond +10 you need a dedicated group setup. Not so fun any more.

Class Balance is a complete mess, Legendary system is a complete mess,

I wouldn't really call it a mess. It is a disgrace, but don't fool yourself into thinking it was supposed to be any different. If it was, the current system would never make it past PTR.

Making playing alts irrelevant,

Again, I'd rather say unrewarding and unsatisfying. I can play them, there's just no chance in hell I can make them strong. Not main-strong, just strong.

PvP is a disaster, Class pruning ruined some classes and removed their entire identity they had for 11 years

I was extremely relieved to hear it was SV that lost its range. Not sure how I would take this kind of "change" to beast mastery.

and Raiding in WoW just really isn't relevant anymore.

Well it IS relevant to me. Currently got ENHC on farm, moving onto Helya. It does keep some of the charm so far. Why do you consider raiding irrelevant?

That's what made Vanilla-WOTLK so enjoyable. You didn't get to max level in a day, you didn't get full epics in a day, you didn't have to run 3 different difficulties everyone was on the same playing field, Blizzard didn't assume we were all idiots and we had abilities. This just isn't the case anymore.

Disagree about LK. LK was when levelling was made considerably more bearable than in Olden Days. I heard many stories and felt thankful that my own experience seems much more humane. The first epic I saw was from Blackrock depths I think, so not too bad really. I also recall wasting all my badges on a PvP set because I didn't know better and then the steady if sparse stream of said epics from heroic dungeons. Speaking of which, I did run 3 difficulties: HC5, ICC NM and HC. Still, I did like that format considerably better, since no matter if I ran a bunch of ICC5 HCs, Argent Tournament dailies or whatever, there was always some relevant reward for them.

[JamesMartigo]

Or maybe, just maybe, a lot of players nowdays (that games in general and especially multiplayer games are a lot more common and high-polish than in 2004~2008) are not interested in staying months on end in the same game repeating the same content for slightly better gear, and would rather subscribe to check the new content and then unsubscribe to go play or do other things?

Maybe, in Vanilla, TBC, and WotLK, there were a lot more people who hadn't tried WoW yet, and by now most of the people who might try it already did? And that means there's a lot less input of players to cover for the output now.

'Cause that sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Exactly! Commons sense folks

[Akka]

Oversimplification of class gameplay was a move to attract new players but, in the end, made more veteran players leave the game than fresh blood coming in.

That's exactly what happened from WotLK to today.

[Deleted]

They added server tech and login tech to avoid another WoD launch debacle. Your anecdotal evidence is countered by facts. What they did ensured a smooth launch. The fact that there were still queues to servers (and still are 1 min queues at times on the ones I play at) says it all.

Wow!wow! If you got facts buddy, bring them forth. You are just as anecdotal.

I talked about my experience and my experience is vinculative. It directly affects wether i pay to play this game or not. Not your comments. If you think the sky is falling, show me why my experience is different from yours. Until then you got no basis.

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That's called no proof. That's called "well, I think this is the case based on my tiny, tiny experience". Yes, others experience something different. Why the heck you decide to proclaim that more people than ever PVP based on your perception of queue times (and quite possibly bad or selective memory, you didn't even keep any records, so this can't even begin to form into an argument) - and insist that you will continue to proclaim that even if others experience worse queue times - is beyond me.

I claimed my experience not others. Mr I dont have evidence of random queues either.
My evidence works for me. It affects me. Until i experience the drama you are trying to sell me, that will be my statement.

[Sinew]

This community is the worst ever in mankind. It literaly went from level 1-60 in 20 days /played for the avg. player without any crybaby would step up, to what we are having now(nothing is just good enough, the graph is the proof).

I blame the devs for respecting this shitty community. I would love to see a blue poster with balls, writing something like "f-off if you don't like it".

Im experiencing the stockholm syndrome.

That's essentially how casuals were dealt with before wotlk, (without them actually saying it) but now the game is all carrot and no stick.

[A dot Ham]

WoD was an overhyped piece of shit, so it spiked and dropped.
Legion is an overhyped piece of shit, so it spiked and dropped.
No, the playerbase is not cyclical. Blizdevs, however, are retarded.

Quality discussion right there.

[Akka]

Did that happen also IN WotLK or right after? Because being the "Wrath of the casual King" was what WotLK got accused of. Yet it added another couple million subs over TBC - and then Cata and the exodus happened.

It happened IN WotLK. Also, WotLK didn't add two millions sub, it stayed flat up to Cata release - TBC ended with 11,5 M, WotLK ended with 12M after Cata was announced.
My empirical experience in WotLK was that there was a MASSIVE flight from veteran players and a MASSIVE arrival of new players. It certainly seems confirmed by how WotLK is now flagged as "best X-pack", and when you dig you notice that it's because most people playing today started then and after.

[Deleted]

[B]Before you raise your pitchforks and torches, I know this is not solid proof, nor am I pretending it is.

but I have proof that you thesis is FALSE. at the same time in WOD there where way leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeess people online playing the game then are now.

[Reachie10]

There a multitude of issues that are the reason WoW isn't as successful as it once was, there is potential obviously for it to be great again because the huge amount of subscriptions that happen at the beginning of every expansion. People want to play, there is just nothing that seems to hold them to play.

If I had to pick 3 things that have happened that have hurt the game, they would be:

1: Server Transfers - Letting people Server Transfer was a cool idea, and a great way to make money for blizzard, but it destroyed servers and the relationship people on those servers had with each other. I play on Zangermarsh (a pretty crappy server) and in this expansion and last expansion, the top 8/10 guilds have transferred off to one of the top 5 servers around, if you are on a big server - that's great, but anyone on a smaller or medium server probably has the same issue.

2: RNG becoming interlaced with more and more parts of the game. (It used to just be gear) - now it's almost everything, patterns for professions, herbing starlight rose, world quests, raiding, legendaries, titanforged, ect. -

3: LFR - Much like server transfers, this hurt the need for guilds and people being in guilds to do raids and dungeons, PVP, ect.

We talk about games like LoL, which are "play 40 minutes" and quit, that's basically what wow has become, log in, do 1 dungeon, and 4 world quests in 40 minutes, log out.

[kail]

/shrug

I left somewhat late in Cata and halfway into MoP and WoD. I didn't leave because of raid content (even Cata had FL) but more of the content beyond raids and they all felt shit in that regard. Cata's was nonexistant, MoP was mass dailies, and WoD was garrisons.

Legion is the only xpac that I feel will keep me in because of M+. I have always been a bigger fan of the 5man content and M+ helps keep that relevant throughout. The PvP stat system is also long overdue.

[A dot Ham]

Before you raise your pitchforks and torches, I know this is not solid proof, nor am I pretending it is.
But it's defenitely interesting to observe and think about it.

A lot of people gave slack to Blizzard Devs back in WoD when they said the decline in the playerbase (after the big increase with WoD launch) was expected and natural, as the playerbase and the game are more cyclical nowadays.

Meanwhile in Legion, an expansion that seems to be very much better received than WoD, and certainly better supported post-launch, seems to be following the same exact trend:

Perhaps they were right after all, and the playerbase is indeed cyclical, and expansion quality is not the major factor influencing playerbase fluctuations.

I was subbed throughout WoD. For the past 3 expansions, my brother and my friend (same guild that I have since abandoned) pay for and play the first part of the expansion and the first tier content available. They will probably sub again for a month with the next content release, and so on and so forth.

WoW is and always has been competing for your free time. It doesn't JUST compete with other MMOs.

In my short 30 years of existence I have never had to experience the inability to keep up with certain books, TV shows, movies, and video games... save for the last few years (really since netflix became a huge player in TV shows).

The point is pop culture is difficult to keep up with, and as there is a ton of content out there. This easiest thing to drop is going to be the one thing that tries to keep you from seeing/participating in the rest. WoW has evolved and managed to stay relevant (and profitable) for over a decade, kudos to blizzard. Not many other franchises can say the same.

[Volitar]

The PvP QQ here is hysterical.

PvP in Legion is the best it's ever been. It the highest semblance of balance WoW has ever had. No one needs the pointless gear grinds that just shut everyone else out unless they endure a streak of losses till they finally get enough honor to get it because they get 1shot by everyone else.

PvP is fun, is for fun. It doesn't need grinds. If you don't want to PvP atm cause you have no big gear rewards guess what? You're not a PvP'er!

Also, the less than 3m queues agree with me. A huge improvement.


With that said, i was one of the few that liked WoD and i knew this moment would come cause i saw them destroy most specs/classes in beta in the name of fantasy. WoD was simply more fun to play. There was a lack of content though, and that was the problem. But when you were playing, it was a joy.
The biggest killer in Legion is not even the legedaries for me, It's the endless AP grind and the unecessary class redesigns (and honestly ignoring feedback and till this day keeping many of the god awful mechanics and talents).

Its balanced because the only thing you can do is PVE someone down.

[Kolvarg]

but I have proof that you thesis is FALSE. at the same time in WOD there where way leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeess people online playing the game then are now.

That's not proof, only a claim.

I still don't get these claims.

Classes were simple as hell in Vanilla/TBC for the most part. Complexity on SOME specs spiked for a little while there in WotLK/Cata, but it was never really the norm overall. And some specs today are still more complex than others, but overall WoW has never been a "complicated" game in terms of the actual button pressing.

So yeah, claims about how the game is "so simple" today as opposed to some undefined time in the past just seem like nonsense or mis-remembering.

I agree when it comes to classes (in most cases anyway). And as you say it depends from class to class and expansion to expansion. But yea, in general class gameplay WAS simpler back then, in the way that many times rotations didn't exist or were simple, and the overall number of actually regularly useful spells was low for many specs. If referring to WotLK, as you sey, then yes some classes now are at most as complex as back then, in some cases simpler.

But I think generally the claims are towards the game in general, not class gameplay. Nowadays, unless take the game seriously (ie progression raiding, high mythic plus, etc), you can pretty much pick any new character, level up, do whatever content you like and pretty much choose your gear only by looking at ilvl and still do fairly well. Certainly enough to clear Normal, probably even Heroic raids.

In the past there was more complexity regarding to gearing, talents, stats (including caps, soft caps, etc), resistance, attunements, etc. That's what I think they mean. There was also a much larger skill gap (perhaps not in Vanilla, but certainly at least in WotLK), where a good/experienced player managed to output much more dps than a bad/unexperienced one with similar gear, by maximizing their character, rotation, dots application, etc.

Personally my opinion is this: The game was overall harder / more complex back then (wouldn't be as much if done today due to more addon and external websites support), but current game offers harder optional high difficulty settings.

[elcapone]

WoD was fun when it came to gearing and raiding on alts like other posters said especially in pvp.

[Darkguyver2020]

We will never go back to those numbers constantly because WoW just isn't as good now as it was in TBC/WOTLK. Lets not pretend that the 12 million people that came back in WoD came in with the expectations to quit in 1-3 months. They all came back hoping for WoW to be amazing again and play all the time like Vanilla-WOTLK.

WoW could have 12 million constant players if they just release good freaking content. We've had the same recycled shit for 12 years now and people realized that in WoD/Legion and have left in droves again.

Another pleb trying to pose his idiotic opinions as facts. This site is swarming with them.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I still don't get these claims.

Classes were simple as hell in Vanilla/TBC for the most part. Complexity on SOME specs spiked for a little while there in WotLK/Cata, but it was never really the norm overall. And some specs today are still more complex than others, but overall WoW has never been a "complicated" game in terms of the actual button pressing.

So yeah, claims about how the game is "so simple" today as opposed to some undefined time in the past just seem like nonsense or mis-remembering.

Indeed. This contradicting myth is often the effect of certain has-been streamers whom are desperate to paint their days in the game as the period when it required TRUE skill.

[Tyrione]

At least WoD had harder raids than Legion. EN is a joke. Mythic EN is easier than LFR SOO.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Another pleb trying to pose his idiotic opinions as facts. This site is swarming with them.

Yeaah... for a fan forum one sure gets the idea that people on here don't like the game very much.

As someone who experienced WOTLK, I sure as hell have seen better content since that expansion, so "it has never been as good as back then!!!!111" just comes across as hilariously inaccurate rambling in my eyes.

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At least WoD had harder raids than Legion. EN is a joke. Mythic EN is easier than LFR SOO.

Lol, try harder. Progression guilds having an easier time with bosses =/= Mythic raids being easier than LFR. EN is an entry raid, but look at Mythic Helya...

[Traveler Voltin]

first raid of first tier is always kind of easy.