Blue comment from the PTR forums

[Gaidax]

This could have been avoided in part at least by not putting destruction on Alpha about 4 months after other revamped specs. Not to mention half the shit people are saying now was also being said around this time last fucking year in early Alpha.

It could not be avoided simply because it's a decision made as a whole about class theme that Warlocks use Soul Shards and cut themselves for mana - things no "proper" goody-two-shoes mage would ever do.

Embers are gone simply because they made no sense for warlock theme-wise in expansion where they first and foremost wanted to tackle and push class theme.

[Frozenbeef]

I'm enjoying affliction tbh :s

Think this is the only time since vanilla where i've actually linked with just a single class because it feels right.

[Zelk]

It could not be avoided simply because it's a decision made as a whole about class theme that Warlocks use Soul Shards and cut themselves for mana - things no "proper" goody-two-shoes mage would ever do.

Embers are gone simply because they made no sense for warlock theme-wise in expansion where they first and foremost wanted to tackle and push class theme.

Class fantasy is a bullshit excuse and you know it

[Urgfelstorm]

It could not be avoided simply because it's a decision made as a whole about class theme that Warlocks use Soul Shards and cut themselves for mana - things no "proper" goody-two-shoes mage would ever do.

Embers are gone simply because they made no sense for warlock theme-wise in expansion where they first and foremost wanted to tackle and push class theme.

Yeah thats exactly why ION just said embers was a better design.... Gaidax I generally dont post a lot here and stay out of conversations but as a mod and somewhat of a lead on the warlock forums can you please refrain from drinking the KoolAid?.

Also since you are obviously more in tune with celestalon perhaps not again drinking the "koolaid" and helping the cause along would be a worth while venture?

A blind man can see that both affliction and destruction suffer from resource generation issues, there is an age old adage "When it aint broke, dont fix it"

[Bullettime]

Class fantasy is a bullshit excuse and you know it

Class fantasy is fine if they actually designed around it in more compelling ways and worked specializations to better work around it.

Instead, the class fantasy elements just feel extremely forced, such as Affliction's demon usage and Soul Effigy just acting as dot throttles or Destruction about to be working Life Tap in as a rotational skill.

[Gaidax]

Yeah thats exactly why ION just said embers was a better design.... Gaidax I generally dont post a lot here and stay out of conversations but as a mod and somewhat of a lead on the warlock forums can you please refrain from drinking the KoolAid?.

Also since you are obviously more in tune with celestalon perhaps not again drinking the "koolaid" and helping the cause along would be a worth while venture?

A blind man can see that both affliction and destruction suffer from resource generation issues, there is an age old adage "When it aint broke, dont fix it"

Did I say that Embers were inferior design somewhere? I said they were gone because Blizzard decided to push class fantasy thing not because they were broken mechanically. It's pretty obvious and I don't see how me stating the obvious equals to me being on "koolaid".

Heck, in this very thread I say their mistake is that they took theme before gameplay.

I think you are the one who has to get off the "koolaid", my dear "mod and somewhat lead on the warlocks forums".

[Wondercrab]

Good to have official acknowledgement, but it just kind of confirms what was to be expected once the 7.0 changes went live. Many of the problematic changes to Warlocks are too deeply tied into the core design to be changed quickly in a patch somewhere, and will likely need a significant overhaul to properly fix. Depending on how aggressive they are with making class changes in Legion (the recent Hunter stuff gives me a small amount of optimism) we might see some significant steps taken in later patches, but realistically I wouldn't expect the core problems to be resolved in a satisfactory way until 8.0.

[Deleted]

He says right there "- Mechanics like Demonic Empowerment and Soul Effigy are cumbersome to manage and while they have strong spec-specific theming, the actual gameplay of using them drags down their respective specs." They're someones baby and they don't want to kill them, even though they know they're bad.

Sad but true. Soul Effigy was so obviously bad - it's Prismatic Crystal with a twist.

Prismatic Crystal was widely hated.

Affliction has had ramp issues for years, and they are becomign more evident as WoW becomes ever more burst biased

Soul Effigy is just about the worst dot-multiplier you can think of in terms of ramp.

Soul Effigy was very badly received on the alpha and there was lots of constructive feedback was given as to why.

But it never got changed. In fact it got nerfed several times over.

As Jessicka points out, it has all the hallmarks of someone's baby birthed as the result of a fixation about class fantasy which got prioritised. So there it stayed, and now we're stuck with it because apparently it's too hard to get rid of.

Which actuall ymeans, they don;t want to get rid of it at all, just make it better. But have no idea how to. Maybe because the game engine itself doesn't provide for fixing issues like the range or raid uniqueness problems.

I can get what they were aiming at, I really can: affliction being about dots. But it can't really be, because the game in 2016 simply works so hard against damage over time that your dots would have to be turned into nukes. But Drain Soul and Haunt were actually better for ramp than Soul Effigy is..and much friendlier to use.

[Urgfelstorm]

Did I say that Embers were inferior design somewhere? I said they were gone because Blizzard decided to push class fantasy thing not because they were broken mechanically. It's pretty obvious and I don't see how me stating the obvious equals to me being on "koolaid".

Heck, in this very thread I say their mistake is that they took theme before gameplay.

I think you are the one who has to get off the "koolaid", my dear "mod and somewhat lead on the warlocks forums".

Well done replying with almost immediate salt. The suggestion still stands, if you have access to celestalon talk to him. Pretty self explanatory.

[Gaidax]

I can get what they were aiming at, I really can: affliction being about dots. But it can't really be, because the game in 2016 simply works so hard against damage over time that your dots would have to be turned into nukes. But Drain Soul and Haunt were actually better for ramp than Soul Effigy is..and much friendlier to use.

And this is the problem, that class identity came before function and ultimately it is their mistake they have to work on.

They solved one issue, but created another and I don't know which one is worse really.

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Well done replying with almost immediate salt. The suggestion still stands, if you have access to celestalon talk to him. Pretty self explanatory.

I obviously don't have access to Celestalon, the fact that I ran a couple of hours of M+ crawl in Beta does not suddenly make me his beer pal or something.

And if I would have access to him, I doubt I'd push the matter anyway, really, aside from dropping some word or two. There is no reason to be obnoxious.

[Bullettime]

And this is the problem, that class identity came before function and ultimately it is their mistake they have to work on.

They solved one issue, but created another and I don't know which one is worse really.

Exactly. Instead of designing the specializations with a few central concepts, they made specializations than rammed in the class core whether it made sense to exist in that manner or not.

Class fantasy is fine. It's a matter of finding harmony between both spec and class. They did this well with Shaman, Death Knight, and Druid for example, but I would argue failed miserably with Rogues and especially Warlocks.

[BannedForViews]

You need to remember that every user of MMO-Champion is a top 100 World raider.

These issues or more exacerbated with NON top 100 raiders. If a top 100 raider can't take an affliction lock push a world first kill, you really think that some scrub sub 3000 guild is going to be able to take that class to kill the boss when they finally get there? Are you saying that it doesn't really matter one flying fuck if they ever kill that boss, because they aren't cutting edge, and so they should just be okay with it and wait for the next expansion?

You do realize if all these other people quit the game, there would be no game for top 100 raiders to push for?

[Deleted]

It could not be avoided simply because it's a decision made as a whole about class theme that Warlocks use Soul Shards and cut themselves for mana - things no "proper" goody-two-shoes mage would ever do.

Embers are gone simply because they made no sense for warlock theme-wise in expansion where they first and foremost wanted to tackle and push class theme.

And look what happens where you prioritise class theme over fun to play. Frankly I suspect most warlock players didn;t give a toss about "class theme" let alone wanting it to lead to poor design issues. But of course, the issue about Destruction using shards is not that it uses shards per se, because at the end of the day they're just a resource.

So peopel just go "ooh nice" or "don;t like that" and forget about it because what they genuinely care about is how something plays

And even the devs are saying that moving to the current shard system lost something important and that the smoothnes sof the old ember system was in fact better

Of course had anyone else said something like

Steady/predictable Ember generation suited the Destruction rotation well, and something important was lost in the course of unifying the class to use a single shared resource

you'd have jumped all over them for being incompetent fools unable to appreciate the beauty of the current design. In fact you already did when someone said they didn;t like the randomness of shard procs.

[Urgfelstorm]

And this is the problem, that class identity came before function and ultimately it is their mistake they have to work on.

They solved one issue, but created another and I don't know which one is worse really.

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I obviously don't have access to Celestalon, the fact that I ran a couple of hours of M+ crawl in Beta does not suddenly make me his beer pal or something.

And if I would have access to him, I doubt I'd push the matter anyway, really, aside from dropping some word or two. There is no reason to be obnoxious.

There is pushing then there is influencing, not hard if you want to try, anyhow i digress.

[Gaidax]

Exactly. Instead of designing the specializations with a few central concepts, they made specializations than rammed in the class core whether it made sense to exist in that manner or not.

Class fantasy is fine. It's a matter of finding harmony between both spec and class. They did this well with Shaman, Death Knight, and Druid for example, but I would argue failed miserably with Rogues and especially Warlocks.

Yes, they could make a better job of making Warlock be Warlock. Trying to glue "warlocky" mechanics with duct tape to what otherwise was perfectly fine spec, just to make it more "warlocky" was a mistake.

Destruction indeed did not need these changes and they had to realize it and find a way to make Destruction feel less than a mage, without resorting to band aid solutions.

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To be honest it's not all doom and gloom about Legion Destruction - some things are both cool and help the warlock theme like Rifts and LoF, but Life Tap, mandatory pets and Drain Life? Just no.

[Florida Man]

I don't play a Warlock. But I did find it hilarious that they post something like this when they are working hard to "fix" mages, even giving them new spell updates for their new abilities. Wuuuuut?

[FertsBlert]

It's basically, "I play in a Mythic guild and you don't so my opinion matters and yours doesn't"

Moreover, it's quite probably that peopel raiding at Mythic levels are more tolerant and maybe even enjoy things that a lot of th emore casual playerbase find either too hard or just plain unfun. Mythic raiders probably get a joy out of getting the perfection of timing demanded by demo or whatever, a bit like you get Eve-online elites who love their spreadsheets.

It doesn;t matter, everyone has a right to their own opinion regardless of their level of play.

It's kinda like snooty book or film reviewers pour scorn on things that are popular or tell people they should enjoy something that isn't popular if only they were clever enough to do so. Reviewers like that basically hate that some Polish film with French subtitles "full of beautiful imagery" gets hardly any audiences but millions of people queue up to see the latest Avengers flick lol

What Mr Mythic doesn't see is that it's not how much with warlocks in regards to their output but simply how, something I've said all along damage is quite ok how we get there is not right.
That is a problem for every level of the game in fact it is more of a problem for those who don't do mythic content, mythic content players will play whatever does the best and work around clunky unfun mechanics to perform, the normal player won't and will instead either quit the class or the game.

And this is the problem, that class identity came before function and ultimately it is their mistake they have to work on.

They solved one issue, but created another and I don't know which one is worse really.

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I obviously don't have access to Celestalon, the fact that I ran a couple of hours of M+ crawl in Beta does not suddenly make me his beer pal or something.

And if I would have access to him, I doubt I'd push the matter anyway, really, aside from dropping some word or two. There is no reason to be obnoxious.

Sorry but by this time with this amount of complete incompetence shown in the destruction of what was an enjoyable, reasonably challenging, reasonably effective class in all 3 specs it is absolutely time to be obnoxious..... or quit.

[Zoldor]

Should have left Destro as it was in WoD and added Wreck Havoc and called it day. The fantasy was fulfilled and the spec wasn't bad at all. I agree the don't fix what isn't broken especially on an under represented class that only gets attention when it is OP.

They've had plenty of time to nerf mages, then slowly build them right back up to where they were. Glad I'm tanking this expansion and not playing my warlock full time. Granted it isn't the worst shit ever, but it is in a bad state when only one spec is tolerable to play and it is fairly meh overall.

[Sesshomaru]

I don't play a Warlock. But I did find it hilarious that they post something like this when they are working hard to "fix" mages, even giving them new spell updates for their new abilities. Wuuuuut?

Wait, they're touching (elemental) spec variations of a Mana Barrier for Mages and just bluntly ignores Warlocks?



Well, I, for one didn't expect a kind of Blizzardish Inquisition.
(Your move now, Blizzard)

Most likely we won't see any big changes in 7.1.5, hopefully we'll see better days (and patch notes) in the Tomb of Sargeras patch.
If we still exist, that is.

[Gaidax]

Sorry but by this time with this amount of complete incompetence shown in the destruction of what was an enjoyable, reasonably challenging, reasonably effective class in all 3 specs it is absolutely time to be obnoxious..... or quit.

It is never a time to be obnoxious when you are trying to get your point through to talented people who deserve to be respected.

This mentality where people think that developers are sort of human trash on payroll that have to prostate themselves on a ground before every forum poster because "15 bucks a month" needs to end.

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Most likely we won't see any big changes in 7.1.5, hopefully we'll see better days (and patch notes) in the Tomb of Sargeras patch.
If we still exist, that is.

There won't be any major changes simply because patch goes live December 21st if not 14th. At best there will be some numbers pass done and probably even that a mild one.