Blizzard's Failed Design Philosophy

[lazypeon100]

And how many major issues were caught by players and acted upon by Blizzard and resulted in some of the better experiences of this expansion? Probably a lot more than the list of bad ones. Hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to find current problems and go find that one person who posted a warning about it and claim that Blizzard never listens.

I can't speak for the other classes, but I know for hunters are issues were brought up numerous times by several different hunters concerning the mechanical (not DPS) changes and problems with said mechanics. We were ignored on the alpha/ beta forums outside of some discussion about survival. Fast forward to now, those issues didn't go away.

I came back to the game after a four year break starting a few months into mop until start of legion. I came into this expansion optimistic because I had heard good things with friends. And overall, I do find it fun, I don't want to detract from that. But there's all sorts of issues with my class right now, BM an already simple spec was made even more simplified to the point of being fairly boring, pet choice feels largely meaningless now, vulnerable mechanic and immobility for MM isn't fun nor does it feel much like a hunter spec. The implementation of new survival tore the hunter community apart, pissing off those who loved old survival while those who enjoy the new spec are treated like red headed step children within the community.

For over 2000 posts in the hunter "let's talk" thread (made by Ornyx) we didn't get a response or any conversation. We finally did get a little feedback from them, specifically after the Q/A and a lot of our concerns weren't really addressed.

All of this sends a message to players. That their thoughts just don't matter. I know blizz isn't intending to send that message, but the way they have been handling the hunter community absolutely sends it nonetheless. I think if they openly discussed their philosophies and direction for the class, a lot of us would be happier.

[Deleted]

If anyone in the world know a thing or two about balacing an mmo then it has to be Blizzard.

Never forget, as the internet does the moment you finish reminding it, that "balancing" this game is more or less an impossible task. This so called balance that some people think is just a matter of sitting down, grabbing a calculator, a peace of paper and a pencil to add things up... is not really possible,; and if by some trick of algebra or alchemy they did manage to do it then all the complaints about balance will transmute into complaints of lack of diversity. As you can surely imagine there 0% chance of winning on the internet.

But I guess sending this sort of feedback over at Blizzard HQ provides several docens of people with work. Thats good for their families. So keep complaining over things that anyone that has played this game for more than a month know has no real point. Someones kid will go to college thanks to it.

I'm pretty sure blizzard is capable of making their own simcraft (per boss) and let every spec run through it on diffrent ilvls and balance them around those numbers but thats not even the point of this post don't see why people bring it up here.

[netherflame]

If Blizzard always went by player feedback, every class would be overpowered as fuck.

If everyone is overpowered is anyone really overpowered??

[ShiyoKozuki]

The entire dev team are egotistical, biased and incompetent. They all need to be fired, every single one of them.

I expect better from a billion dollar company.

[grandpab]

Backseat devs are the worst.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Can't even stomache reading this. I am so sick of seeing people saying they don't listen to them. No fucking shit. Do you listen to people who tell you how to do your job? How about if millions of them do? Facts are you have no fucking idea how to balance the game. There is no point in listening to a bunch of prattle for people who fear change. All the specs perform pretty well considering they made major major changes this expansion. If you don't find it fun, that's your problem as much as theirs.

I'm assuming you defend the game because you get paid for your youtube content.

[Deleted]

Some of the biggest fails started from Cata to me. The biggest fail for me from Legion is definitely the class design. Second one being rng stuff like the leges etc.
But there is also many successful designs for sure

[IsaacHawke]

What you are talking about is an engineering problem, not a design problem.

First I am with you on this: Blizzard didn't spend enough resource on things that should be adjusted or investigate in time.
In other words, It is for sure that Blizzard intently ignore some problems that they think have "little impact".

One of Arcane Mage's Artifact trait that should reduce the cooldown of displacement ability doesn't work at all. Players have reported it in the first time on beta, then PTR, then live. However today (Dec 1 2016), this bug is still not fixed yet. On the other hand they gave the Fire mages options to hide their visual floating globes on patch 7.1 while leaving the bugged Arcane trait broken.
Another example is the Warlock class, abandoned poor bastards. A few hours ago Blizzard admitted that there are some serious design problems about this class. But they don't think it is necessary to fix. The reason is that just like Arcane mages, the population of Warlock is relatively small.

But for popular part of the game, like Fire mage I talked about or their favorite: Frost mage, those two specs had been tuned almost every patch, while the "Massive Invisibility" pvp talent skill of arcane mage is bugged and never fixed.


However, I also think their design capability is questionable.
One example is the Warlock class, which is an abomination made by absolute failure designs. Let alone countless other examples including those you brought up in your thread. Even their favorite Fire mage, Blizzard developers said they want to reduce the importance of CC on gear, but changes of 7.15 only made it worse, much much worse.
The solution to all of those problems have been brought up on forums countless times, and Blizzard just appears to be blind and keep following their own ridiculous path of design.

Yes, we are talking about a stubborn child who refuses to play toys he dislike, and even failed to play those he love correctly, because he is dull and refuses listening to any instruction from others.

[Deleted]

Right now I feel these small patches are slowing down the rate of changes. Blizz has said in the past peoples biggest complaint has been how fast changes have happened in the past.

[MoanaLisa]

Player feedback usually arrives in the form of one person writing "Do X" while another says "Do Y" which is completely the opposite of the first. In fact, Blizzard doesn't really give a fiddly fuck about your design ideas. "Remove STM" co-exists next to half a dozen ideas about how to make STM better. It's their design and despite the op's feeling that game design is up for some sort of vote, it isn't. You say what you think, you understand that others are saying things that are the complete opposite and you see how it all pans out. Implementing "suggested changes" when they are all different is some sort of joke and not even worthy of talking about much. The feedback that Blizzard wants is "how do things feel" and "what bothers you". Sometimes that takes and sometimes it doesn't. A lot of feedback probably runs completely counter to the design they wish to have so that's going to be tossed out anyway.

Still, you should tell them what you think but not expect them to rush to agree with you or anyone else.

[Atreyis]

OP has a very legit concern. I distinctly remember back in around the March/April timeframe various classes bringing up legit concern on class design that would cause issues down the road. Specifically S2M with the priests as at that time I was contemplating maining one. There are some very smart people in the WoW community and yes while at time they can be drowned out by the bitching and moaning of the masses, its not hard even through basic skimming of forums to find completely valid concerns that the dev team needs to be aware of and should have seen coming.

There was LOT of very good feedback during alpha/beta and very little communication in all aspects from the dev team on just about every topic.

[Gaidax]

There's no reason to be condescending. All the OP wants is for feedback to be acknowledged. Blizz obviously doesn't have to actually follow through with every idea or complaint thrown at them nor should they. But they should listen to the concerns of their playerbase and address them so that the players don't feel like they aren't valued customers.

When months of feedback all expressing the same concerns from numerous players are all ignored or at least not addressed and there seems to be no changes in sight, players will rightfully feel frustrated and upset. Blizz should be discussing their ideas and addressing concerns, not keeping silent and leaving everyone to guess what the plan going forward is.

No, OP just tosses a bunch of wild accusations based on what is in his head. His problem is that he does not realize how BIG this thing is and how much larger and more difficult it is that a couple of under/overpowered specs or abilities. Considering there are 36 specs with Artifact Powers and Talents to boot, the undertaking it is to have everything click is not to be underestimated.

Yeah they messed up some shit for sure, but they did so much more which is actually right and good and ultimately what one needs to understand is that they can not be everywhere at once.

They could improve is more transparency on what they intend to do, but claiming that Blizzard refuses to read or accept feedback? That's just not true, unless in your book that means that they must also implement that feedback ingame and god forbid they disagree.

[Negato]

No, OP just tosses a bunch of wild accusations based on what is in his head. His problem is that he does not realize how BIG this thing is and how much larger and more difficult it is that a couple of under/overpowered specs or abilities. Considering there are 36 specs with Artifact Powers and Talents to boot, the undertaking it is to have everything click is not to be underestimated.

Yeah they messed up some shit for sure, but they did so much more which is actually right and good and ultimately what one needs to understand is that they can not be everywhere at once.

They could improve is more transparency on what they intend to do, but claiming that Blizzard refuses to read or accept feedback? That's just not true, unless in your book that means that they must also implement that feedback ingame and god forbid they disagree.

Let me clarify. First I'm not sure why you, or other people, keep bringing up "under/overpowered specs or abilities". This post is not about relative class strength or balance. This post is about how Blizzard's design process is missing a key element: player feedback. The concern is that many of the changes we are just now seeing being made, have been addressed as far back as the beta. Which means that Blizzard has either ignored them, or was unable to see them at all. If it is a case of the first, that they simply do not care what players think about X or Y, then inevitably this is going to cause frustration down the line with their product (and we are seeing some of this now with clunky mechanics). If it is the latter, and Blizzard is unable to see the relevant feedback, then Blizzard does not have proper channels in place where constructive concerns and criticism can reach them. It seems that the forums are not doing a great job of relaying information to Blizzard.

As such, in order to keep this thread beneficial, we can try to brain storm alternative ways in which players can have their feedback heard. It can be anything from hiring more employees dedicated to reading the forums, to designing a system similar to Reddit where the top concerns are voted to the top en masse. For example, do you think that right now they have a dedicated person for each class assigned to reading the forums, making a short list of ideas, bugs, and concerns that they think are reasonable and important, and then submitting this list to the lead designers for them to issue priority to. My guess is going to be no. Right now it feels like the forums are an echo chamber where people have some really good ideas and suggestions, and relevant bug pertaining to their class, but that information is either being ignored, unnoticed, or drowned out in useless posts. It gets to a point where the problem becomes so big that Blizzard simply cannot ignore the problem anymore and scrambles to fix it (case in point, people choosing ilvl 850 neck/rings over ilvl 880 and the recent stat changes targeted at that).

[Greuvee]

You do realize that not all feedback provided by certain players is what all remaining players want? Or that some ideas are against the initial design behind some aspect of the game, and therefore cannot be fully implemented?

Tell me, you have no idea about game design, do you?

I know a lot about software development. And what I see is a bare-bones crew behind the wheel. They're probably working with limited resources and just can't get their stuff together. I've worked in many shops like this. The best WoW days are behind us I'm afraid. Blizzard won't do what they need to do - hire more people. They lost a lot of great talent that simply cannot be replaced. Couple this with unqualified management and you end up where we are today. The really do need to improve on their customer relations. I don't do twitter so I miss a majority of their "news" feed. I rely on the official forums for critical information. Sadly, that hasn't been a priority for them.

[lazypeon100]

No, OP just tosses a bunch of wild accusations based on what is in his head. His problem is that he does not realize how BIG this thing is and how much larger and more difficult it is that a couple of under/overpowered specs or abilities. Considering there are 36 specs with Artifact Powers and Talents to boot, the undertaking it is to have everything click is not to be underestimated.

Yeah they messed up some shit for sure, but they did so much more which is actually right and good and ultimately what one needs to understand is that they can not be everywhere at once.

They could improve is more transparency on what they intend to do, but claiming that Blizzard refuses to read or accept feedback? That's just not true, unless in your book that means that they must also implement that feedback ingame and god forbid they disagree.

Blizz needs to be more vocal and communicate with the community more. On the PTR boards, Ornyx made a post going into detail what they plan to do about waylay. They didn't have to change it (they are though), I'm simply happy we are getting SOME kind of communication and what blizz's plan is. Otherwise we feel left in the dark while our words fall on what most would see as dead ears.

Do they read our feedback? Obviously yeah, they aren't oblivious to everyone and their problems. My issue is that when concerns are raised by large portions of the community, we get silence back. Ornyx, which I'll happy admit, proved me wrong concerning the large thread about waylay.

I would love to see more of that.

[tss]

I love how OP gives very specific examples of concise feedback from beta being ignored, and the first responses are hurdur the community can't design the game by committee. How fucking stupid are some of you?

[Gaidax]

Let me clarify. First I'm not sure why you, or other people, keep bringing up "under/overpowered specs or abilities". This post is not about relative class strength or balance. This post is about how Blizzard's design process is missing a key element: player feedback. The concern is that many of the changes we are just now seeing being made, have been addressed as far back as the beta. Which means that Blizzard has either ignored them, or was unable to see them at all. If it is a case of the first, that they simply do not care what players think about X or Y, then inevitably this is going to cause frustration down the line with their product (and we are seeing some of this now with clunky mechanics). If it is the latter, and Blizzard is unable to see the relevant feedback, then Blizzard does not have proper channels in place where constructive concerns and criticism can reach them. It seems that the forums are not doing a great job of relaying information to Blizzard.

As such, in order to keep this thread beneficial, we can try to brain storm alternative ways in which players can have their feedback heard. It can be anything from hiring more employees dedicated to reading the forums, to designing a system similar to Reddit where the top concerns are voted to the top en masse. For example, do you think that right now they have a dedicated person for each class assigned to reading the forums, making a short list of ideas, bugs, and concerns that they think are reasonable and important, and then submitting this list to the lead designers for them to issue priority to. My guess is going to be no. Right now it feels like the forums are an echo chamber where people have some really good ideas and suggestions, and relevant bug pertaining to their class, but that information is either being ignored, unnoticed, or drowned out in useless posts. It gets to a point where the problem becomes so big that Blizzard simply cannot ignore the problem anymore and scrambles to fix it (case in point, people choosing ilvl 850 neck/rings over ilvl 880 and the recent stat changes targeted at that).

See, you assume too much... Do you want to count how much bullshit was given as "feedback" and proved to be false in the end too? Because there was plenty as well.

Your folly is two assumptions:

1. Developers do not read/care about feedback.
2. Players feedback is never wrong.

Once you get off your high horse and acknowledge these as falsehoods, then maybe you will have a more credible argument.

[Deleted]

Yawn. Too bad Blizzard is ignoring all you infinitely wise design philosophers and game design university lecturers.

You dont have to be a dick and yes it is flawed. When you start rebalancing classes extremely and around RNG based items, while having a system in play that requires you to put an extra amount of time in it, you clearly show that you have no vision of the game at all. You clearly show that you have no idea what you were doing, what you are doing and what you are going to do with classes/specs/stats.

Devs right now have reached a new level of class destruction in the early parts of the expac. as if you are paying an expensive beta test ...oh wait ...

[Grym]

I believe Blizzard said it many times already, it is not that they ignore or didn't read your feedback, they just don't agree with you.

When you have Player X and Player Y, asking for opposite things, eg casual vs hardcore (just an example that involve 2 extreme views) on reward, they would want very different things. The casuals want accessibilities, while the hardcore generally want exclusiveness. Which ever side Blizzard side on, the opposite side will go "Blizzard ignored my feedback!!!!"

Maybe Blizzard can set up a sub forum "We have listened to your ideas just we don't agree", and place the ideas that were rejected in that forum, with a brief explanation of why it is rejected, and state that this will not be visited again so the OP cannot piss and cry with their reasoning to try get it reconsidered.

[Sosoulsu]

You Blizzard sycophants are idiots. Are you all getting personal Thank You's from Blizzard for defending them or something?

The simple fact that there are massive changes being made to things that were reported to be issues many times during Beta and the PTR. This really begs the question of the point to reporting issues at all, if Blizzard will ignore them until the game is live.

Huge sweeping changes mid-expansion are NOT GOOD, and show that Blizzard's game design philosophy is flawed. It's pretty clear, in an objective sense, in a way that is indefensible.
But that won't stop you morons from trying, while people who see the issues leave by the thousands.