Blizzard's Failed Design Philosophy

[Yamuri]

Fun how everyone wants to see where Blizz went wrong. I still see them making tons of money so I'm sure there's more done right than wrong. Maybe it's not that Blizzard doesn't know their own design and philosophy of feedback but that it doesn't fit with their original design. Everyone wants things to change, I don't see anything killing wow if they don't listen. For the most part, if even more of the popular suggestions get taken, there will be more imbalance. Sure some things are broken but it's not getting worse.

[Negato]

See, you assume too much... Do you want to count how much bullshit was given as "feedback" and proved to be false in the end too? Because there was plenty as well.

Your folly is two assumptions:

1. Developers do not read/care about feedback.
2. Players feedback is never wrong.

Once you get off your high horse and acknowledge these as falsehoods, then maybe you will have a more credible argument.

To address your points. (1) "Developers do not read/care about feedback". I would love for this NOT to be the case, but sadly that is the situation we seem to be in. If you look at my original post you will see at least 5 examples of issues that can be considered affecting major game play elements that were identified very early, and never addressed. So again either Blizzard is choosing not to address them, or they are not seeing the issues due to the way they have designed their main source of receiving feedback (the forums).

(2) "Players feedback is never wrong." I am not asserting that player feedback is either wrong or right, or never wrong or always right. I am asserting that player feedback is not being heard in an efficient manner so much so that it is having negative consequences and impact on the game (where we are seeing drastic changes being made in a live product, that arguably should have been made during the Beta).

And my challenge to you is to provide me with your examples of "bullshit was given as "feedback" and proved to be false in the end too". Because if you are counting class vs class posts or balance posts, then you have once again missed the point of this thread. I agree that there is too much QQ on the forums that is drowning out legitimate bug reports, feedback on why talents like StM are not good from any perspective, and legitimate game play concerns such as "why doesn't an ilvl 880 item feel like an upgrade to me". The question is how do we get the relevant and important information heard and seen by Blizzard.

Sadly I think this hits the nail on the head:

"Blizzard won't do what they need to do - hire more people. "

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I believe Blizzard said it many times already, it is not that they ignore or didn't read your feedback, they just don't agree with you.

When you have Player X and Player Y, asking for opposite things, eg casual vs hardcore (just an example that involve 2 extreme views) on reward, they would want very different things. The casuals want accessibilities, while the hardcore generally want exclusiveness. Which ever side Blizzard side on, the opposite side will go "Blizzard ignored my feedback!!!!"

Maybe Blizzard can set up a sub forum "We have listened to your ideas just we don't agree", and place the ideas that were rejected in that forum, with a brief explanation of why it is rejected, and state that this will not be visited again so the OP cannot piss and cry with their reasoning to try get it reconsidered.

But this doesn't explain why bug reports and non class related concerns are not being addressed either. For example, many players in the Beta, and even when Legion first launched, were reporting concerns with items (specifically neck/rings) which drastically higher item levels, but were not simming as upgrades. Meaning lets say you spend 2 hours in HoV +10 on the second week it came out. After grueling trash pack after trash pack and finally killing all the bosses, you open a chest for your reward and receive an ilvl 870 ring... except this ring despite being 40 ilvl higher then your current ring, and requiring much more time, effort, and commitment, simply is not an upgrade and not worth using. Thus this ilvl 870 ring will be sharded or sold. This is an actual example of was and is happening, and what was being reported and noticed during Beta, and Blizzard never fully addressed it. The question remains why. Then you have a similar situation happening to some specs with non ring/neck pieces that had their best stat on it, like crit for fire mages or haste for shadow priests / fury warriors, or mastery for Arms Warriors. They were wearing much lower ilevel gear and not really benefiting from items that they received for running much harder content. Surely you agree this a problem?

And the end result is that Blizzard finally acknowledged that it is in fact a glaring problem within the game, and that it needs to be fixed. So their reaction is to change the stat scaling on all secondary stats, sending players into a panic and adversely affecting everyone with a haste/crit break point. Not to mention the amount of extra work this has surely created in terms of rebalancing damage of abilities to compensate for the MAJOR change. And my point remains, this issue was identified during beta, and again during the early release of Legion. Yet it was never addressed. And you can not explain that as just "When you have Player X and Player Y, asking for opposite things, someone will be ignored". The issue remains: Blizzard's system for player feedback is either not working, or they are choosing not to listen to player feedback.

[Gadzooks]

Maybe the case is that we have too many useless complaints clogging up the pipe-line, and the game breaking, bug abusing stuff never gets seen. If that's the case, then the pipeline needs to be redesigned so that relevant and useful information is actually seen and acted upon by Blizzard.

I agree that it's the pipeline that's the problem, not the players. I've been watching the class rebuild, and it just seems like they took on too much, and had to scramble to get it out the door, and now will spend the rest of the expansion fixing it all.

We all know Blizzard is slow, and that they design by committee, which is THE slowest way to design anything. And, we know a lot of the lead devs are number crunchers and min/maxers, so they probably dive into any rabbit hole they can on any given committee discussion that pops up (As a creative professional, I experience this all the time - everyone is signed off on something, then some prig in a departement onlt tangentally involved will pull the e-brake by tunnel visioning in on one little aspect of it....ugh...it doesn't matter...)

I definitely lean towards they took on too much early on, and are trying to recover from that now, and will be doing that for the rest of the expansion, and it's their workflow and methods that are causing it, not players and feedback.

[orgonutil]

If Blizzard always went by player feedback, every class would be overpowered as fuck.

No, ignored feedback isnot about ignoring players asking for buffs, is about blizzard ignoring broken mechanics, talents, etc

[Tanthoris]

[*]Players actively reporting bugs on Mythic Helya that were ignored, and then getting banned for abusing the bugs that they reported and were never fixed.

This has nothing to do with player feedback though, yes they did the right thing in reporting a bug that they found, but they abused it during a world first race which is something that blizzard has never, not even once, let slide.

One of the reasons that blizzard doesn't listen to, or even reply to half the "feedback" players give is because the official wow forums are so toxic that it would erode metal just by opening the page. Another reason is that people seem to think that posting feedback here during beta/ptr periods becomes actual helpful feedback for the devs.

The CM list is getting smaller and smaller every year because players treat them like trash and it's the CMs job to help find these useful feedbacks in the sewer that is the official forums.

I've yet to find 1 mmorpg that listens to the community half as well as blizzard does.

I'm not defending blizz, they have made some horrible decision for legion and we are now stuck with them, but people need to remember, the forums which were meant to be this useful tool for players to give support and feedback have become their own circle of hell to the people who work at blizzard who have to deal with the forums.

[Pull My Finger]

You dont have to be a dick and yes it is flawed. When you start rebalancing classes extremely and around RNG based items, while having a system in play that requires you to put an extra amount of time in it, you clearly show that you have no vision of the game at all. You clearly show that you have no idea what you were doing, what you are doing and what you are going to do with classes/specs/stats.

Devs right now have reached a new level of class destruction in the early parts of the expac. as if you are paying an expensive beta test ...oh wait ...

Yeah, I just don't understand why they won't simply hire you specialists, you got it all figured out. Can't they see? Have they no shame?!

[Deleted]

See, you assume too much... Do you want to count how much bullshit was given as "feedback" and proved to be false in the end too? Because there was plenty as well.

Your folly is two assumptions:

1. Developers do not read/care about feedback.
2. Players feedback is never wrong.

Once you get off your high horse and acknowledge these as falsehoods, then maybe you will have a more credible argument.

Did you read his examples ? Would you say player feedback was wrong in such instances ? You are not even making sense.

Sometimes i feel like MMOC has like a thousand of blizzard bots posting responses almost randomly.

[Sylvaeres]

With the release of the latest string of PTR patch notes, and now the change to secondary stat scaling, I would like to discuss why I think Blizzard has completely failed in their approach in designing an efficient system to address player feedback . I would like to discuss how Blizzard seemingly turns a blind eye to player feedback, or is unable to receive it efficiently in the first place. What we are seeing now on the PTR with the massive class changes, the playstyle changes, the stat scaling changes, etc is all a direct result of them either choosing to actively ignore player feedback that has been generated as far back as a year ago, or not being able to see and process the information in a timely manner.

Here are some examples to consider:

• Several players reporting issues with stats scaling extremely high (35% haste in early gear) on beta forums and now the recently announced secondary stat crunch.
• Similarly, players reporting that with the removal of primary stats from rings/necks, ilvl 850 items with optimal stats felt better than ilvl 880 items.
• Players actively reporting bugs on Mythic Helya that were ignored, and then getting banned for abusing the bugs that they reported and were never fixed.
• Shadow priests pointing out how broken StM is during Beta and how it’s a badly designed as talent in general (again during the beta) yet it goes live, and now the entire spec is being reworked mid expansion.
• Several bugs that were reported during Beta which are still in the game right now. Such as being able to get an extra 30% armor buff or holy damage that you can get from not completing the starting Broken Isle scenario, albeit these are not useable in raids.
• Players complaining during testing that some bosses in higher M+ dungeons were tuned extremely tight compared to others in their same category (CoS last boss, Hryja, Shade of Xavius) yet nothing was done and only now are we seeing this being addressed slightly (after players started to cheese shade of Xavius).
• The list goes on and on, I’m sure you have examples from your own class forums (and please share!) where potential problems were highlighted early, but completely ignored by Blizzard and now have spiraled out of control.

The bottom line is Blizzard’s approach to player feed back is very flawed. Issues/concerns that are being reported are left ignored. Only after it becomes a major and glaring problem do they begin to address the issue. Either they are not actively listening to the people that are actually playing the game and providing feedback, or the feedback, bug reports, and legitimate concerns are being lost in an echo chamber on the forums. As such, if the flaw lies in using the forums as the main source of obtaining feedback, perhaps there may a way of designing a better system. My question is, what would that system look like?

To summarize, many of the problems we are seeing in the game right now are a direct result of Blizzard inability to effectively process and respond to player feedback. What can they do to improve and better address player concerns, bug reports, and positive feedback?

Note: Post was edited to reflect that the problem lies in how Blizzard is communicating with players and receiving their concerns, not necessarily in how they are designing the game itself.

You basically made a giant whining thread just moaning and crying and didn't even acknowledge any of the litany of good things they've done

[Schattenlied]

• The list goes on and on, I’m sure you have examples from your own class forums (and please share!) where potential problems were highlighted early, but completely ignored by Blizzard and now have spiraled out of control.

Greater Blessing of Might... It's buggy (reported in alpha and still not fixed), mechanically unsound (core problem of a DPS class having to rely on the competence and connection of 3 other people to do it's own DPS), and been met with nearly universal hatred by the Ret community since the moment it showed up in Alpha, and here we are over a year later, still dealing with it.

[Flurryfang]

People complain because their feedback feels ignored when no changes are made and blizz doesn't address player concerns. A lot of players are also attached to the game, because they love the game and are passionate about it and the memories from it. Leaving the game behind isn't simple for a lot of people.

Which I think brings up the main issue. Yes, blizz can absolutely design the game however they wish, you are correct in saying that. It is their game aftwr all. That said, the game is also meant to be fun, and when they ignore feedback the players give them, it actively pisses people off and it stops being fun.

For instance, the hunter community brought up several questionable design decisions with the class during alpha and beta. We were ignored, and now we're stuck with mechanics that many hunters actively hate and find unfun. Over on the WoW forums there is a concensus that the only hunters enjoying themselves right now are survival hunters, and the survival rework has torn the hunter community apart. And even they are worried about the waylay changes coming up yet blizz doesn't communicate or address our concerns. And I'm positive we are not the only class that feels this way.

While it is Blizzards game, it is also up to them which feedback they want to listen to. Just because some players feel like their feedback is being ignored, does not mean, that that feedback was usefull at all. Right now i am seeing alot of players complain about giving feedback, which seems completly insane and unreal, like some MM hunters wanting to only empower abilities instead of maybe nerfing one of the best low-mid skill specs in the game.

So while i agree, that is a bit dumb by Blizzard to not look at some of the well said and well argumented feedback, i can also understand them if they find some feedback wrongly placed. They have a vision for the game and we, the player, is forced to follow that vision if we want to keep playing.

Note: But also, when it comes to finding good feedback, it is hard to find with people getting more and more vocal by the day without really giving constructive feedback and drowning out any voice of reason.

[ShiyoKozuki]

The hammer comes down.

Random forum poster with no credibility in the community or as a game designer slams Blizzard.

Oh wait...it is just another day at the forums.

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Dunno? i take a company with 25 years in the industry and 4000 employees over your reply any day. Yeah. They sure do. Because if you would know how to balance a game you'd be making a shit ton of money instead of posting here.

How much are you being paid to defend Blizzard?

[KaPe]

While many posts can be disregarded as "whining" and baseless complaints, it's pretty much a fact that an enormous amount of feedback was ignored back in beta. There were detailed posts, various solutions, predictions of things going wrong - and that's exactly what happened. Current rework of secondaries in order to make ilvl more attractive? Already in beta. Issues with S2M resulting in changing half of the spec to bring it back under control? Mentioned many times in beta, ignored until it exploded in raids. Half of legendaries being useless? Yep.

Hell, no need to look further than the first class balancing hotfix, which introduced enormous amount of changes - with some of them being nearly 50% buffs. You cannot tell me Blizzard does a good job when they need to make such adjustments after months of beta testing.

The problem is that they actually are changing those things in 7.1.5. In many cases they are stumbling blindly while trying to find a solution - like Waylay. Early-mid expansion is hardly a time for massive rework of any class, but it doesn't seem to deter them. All because they didn't listen to various warnings in course of several months. They thought they knew better, that player feedback was worthless. Wasn't there even a blue post claiming that there weren't any worthwhile balance posts, just a huge amount of whining? Conveniently ignoring dozens of well organized threads back from beta? For all I know, it was supposed to annoy people and make them post more angrily, thus "proving" the point without it actually being true.

Let's not forget that this is the first expansion where even changing spec is problematic, due to Legendaries and Artifact Power. If they make Frost better than Fire, it's not just a matter of changing few gems and enchants. It requires grinding AP, as well as luck in order to get good legendaries. Big shifts in balance are thus far more annoying than they ever were.

E: It's also incredibly annoying how it's always "we want to improve our communication" - and they keep failing. Blizzcon Q&A gave some hope for a change, but nope - guess they were too busy eating turkey to post anything worthwhile. Now it's close to Christmas, so it will be another break from development. After that, it's January, so too late to change anything - but no worries, they'll make another post where they totally get it and promise to do better next time.

[lazypeon100]

While it is Blizzards game, it is also up to them which feedback they want to listen to. Just because some players feel like their feedback is being ignored, does not mean, that that feedback was usefull at all. Right now i am seeing alot of players complain about giving feedback, which seems completly insane and unreal, like some MM hunters wanting to only empower abilities instead of maybe nerfing one of the best low-mid skill specs in the game.

So while i agree, that is a bit dumb by Blizzard to not look at some of the well said and well argumented feedback, i can also understand them if they find some feedback wrongly placed. They have a vision for the game and we, the player, is forced to follow that vision if we want to keep playing.

Note: But also, when it comes to finding good feedback, it is hard to find with people getting more and more vocal by the day without really giving constructive feedback and drowning out any voice of reason.

I absolutely understand this. I'm not unreasonable. I personally just think that some of the more well thought out issues should be addressed. Blizz doesn't have to agree or do anything, I think merely acknowledging the player base and letting them know that yes, they read what we say and consider it seriously. A lot of people have a strong reason to feel that that hasn't been happening sadly.

[Deleted]

I think it's good that Blizzard craft the game as they like. They are the game makers, not the players. WoW would not exist if everyone would contribute. You need to have actual talents to make a video game.
I also think that players complaining are an extremely low % of the player base

we are there customers without the players as you call us there company wouldnt be shit so they should listen to us, its a 2 way system,

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The hammer comes down.

Random forum poster with no credibility in the community or as a game designer slams Blizzard.

Oh wait...it is just another day at the forums.

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Dunno? i take a company with 25 years in the industry and 4000 employees over your reply any day. Yeah. They sure do. Because if you would know how to balance a game you'd be making a shit ton of money instead of posting here.

25 years and over 4000 people which is why people are pissed cos in those 25 years they havnt learned shit about how to treat customers and with an increased team of recent years there should be atleast someone to communicate with, im sick of listening to watcher and his horseshit and then you have holinka and celestion all corrupt fuckers who dnt deserve there job positions

[Cæli]

we are there customers without the players as you call us there company wouldnt be shit so they should listen to us, its a 2 way system,

my opinion is that we are worth nothing really important, but they listen, they just ignore what they want to

[ThunderTaco]

snip

You conveniently ignore the fact that for every feedback provided, there is the opposite ? Players find somme mechanic clunky and unfun ? Others will find it fun. Players find some talent useless and others will find it great.

You talk like every single player has the same opinion about everything and Blizzard just ignores it. I love StM, I love the concept, I'm sure others love it too. How that Blizzard handles this ? Some want it remove, some want to keep it. Well, they rework something. If they just remove it, the forums will be plagued by "I chose this class for this precise talent and now they remove it, too late to reroll, unsub".

But no, it's way easier to focus on the part that complains and claim that Blizzard never listens, right ?

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25 years and over 4000 people which is why people are pissed cos in those 25 years they havnt learned shit about how to treat customers and with an increased team of recent years there should be atleast someone to communicate with, im sick of listening to watcher and his horseshit and then you have holinka and celestion all corrupt fuckers who dnt deserve there job positions

How easy it is to just anonimously bash people on the internet without any explanation or anything.

[thilicen]

then dont fucking ask for FEEDBACK

Can you imagine all the shit these people have to read through that whiny cunts will claim to be "feedback"?

[Deleted]

Yes they failed with design. Two words. "Feral Druid" :-(

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Can't even stomache reading this. I am so sick of seeing people saying they don't listen to them. No fucking shit. Do you listen to people who tell you how to do your job? How about if millions of them do? Facts are you have no fucking idea how to balance the game. There is no point in listening to a bunch of prattle for people who fear change. All the specs perform pretty well considering they made major major changes this expansion. If you don't find it fun, that's your problem as much as theirs.

Pretty spot on. I say this as someone that doesn't think WoW is perfect, but also as someone that understands that perfection isn't a realistic goal. I mean it is a huge machine with a huge array of fans so with that many moving parts and that many opinions you can't ever peg it all right? I mean it is really easy for these people to point a finger at the 10ish things people might have gotten pretty right. But never at the 100s or 1000s of things these fans got wrong. It is Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest. You just find the current mistakes in the game, point to people saying something about it, ignore the rest, and then claim if they were the ones tossing the ball around on Sunday (or in this case a dev at Blizz) they would have easily had 400 yards passing, 6 TDs, and no picks.

[Thorbalt]

I don't think you understand. This is not about one class being overpowered or people complaining in general, this is about key game play elements and bugs that were reported and never addressed during the Beta or testing, and now we are seeing massive changes in the middle of the released game as a result.

And everyone with a brain reading this thread KNOWS you dont understand a damn thing about a bug. Just because you report it does not magically make it go away within a week. It can take months to find a bug if its a nasty sneaky one, and even finding it doesnt guarantee a quick fix.