Trump to Announce Carrier Plant Will Keep Jobs in U.S.

[Venant]

I'm of another opinion, i think automation is going to rapidly increase in the next few years, regardless. If you've been following the AI scene you'd know there's been massive breakthroughs in just a matter of years, things we initially thought would take decades.

Yeah, didn't somebody recently predict that AI would wipe out humanity and colonize the galaxy by 2050?

[Wells]

Trump creating incentives outside of heavily taxing the company if they sell their products in the US is smart. There's obviously many other markets out there that a company like Carrier can potentially tap into. Trump isn't the first and he certainly won't be the last to offer incentives to businesses.

You're completely ignoring what people tell you the problem is. Do you seriously not see the problem with corporations using vague threats of layoffs to extract rent? From a president who wins politically for doing so?

[Krille]

As opposed to Obama who pushed through his legislation by spreading the narrative that if you oppose Obamacare you are murdering poor sick children.

Trump's opposition can't stop making tactical errors, and the fact that they can't even resist attacking him when he does something that is widely viewed as a positive thing is proof of that. They are basically giving trump more ammunition to make the argument that he has to crack down harder on the mass media, possibly disbanding the white house press corp and really getting into a fight with the media that will only add more fuel to his movement.

Yes, shut down the press. The fuhrer is only getting started!

[Garnier Fructis]

Trump's opposition can't stop making tactical errors, and the fact that they can't even resist attacking him when he does something that is widely viewed as a positive thing is proof of that.

Achieving a somewhat positive outcome through subpar methods is generally not a positive thing.

[Wells]

You can criticize him all you want, he made a good deal, saved 1,000 people their jobs, and I guess he's gotten a lot of people steamed over his benevolence here.

His benevolence? This didn't cost him shit.

[Elegiac]

As opposed to Obama who pushed through his legislation by spreading the narrative that if you oppose Obamacare you are murdering poor sick children.

Please post the speech in which he said this.

Trump's opposition can't stop making tactical errors, and the fact that they can't even resist attacking him when he does something that is widely viewed as a positive thing is proof of that. They are basically giving trump more ammunition to make the argument that he has to crack down harder on the mass media, possibly disbanding the white house press corp and really getting into a fight with the media that will only add more fuel to his movement.

Weren't you bitching about transparency in government not two years ago?

[RickJamesLich]

You're completely ignoring what people tell you the problem is. Do you seriously not see the problem with corporations using vague threats of layoffs to extract rent? From a president who wins politically for doing so?

There was no vague threat in this case lol. But I get the scenario, there could be theoretical vague threats, and with those theoretical vague threats, companies may extort money from the government? Because we didn't see that at all with this scenario. Carrier was really planning on sending the jobs to Mexico and Trump managed to save about half of the jobs. Sounds like you are jumping to conclusions based off of one instance of the Donald intervening.

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His benevolence? This didn't cost him shit.

Time is the most valuable commodity, *especially* for a guy like Trump.

[Elegiac]

There was no vague threat in this case lol. But I get the scenario, there could be theoretical vague threats, and with those theoretical vague threats, companies may extort money from the government? Because we didn't see that at all with this scenario. Carrier was really planning on sending the jobs to Mexico and Trump managed to save about half of the jobs. Sounds like you are jumping to conclusions based off of one instance of the Donald intervening.

How is 'if you don't give us tax breaks we'll ship these jobs overseas' not extortion?

[Venant]

Yes, shut down the press. The fuhrer is only getting started!

If somebody wanted to become a dictator, it is standard practice to create an 'enemy' like that and use it to consolidate power, but even if the goal is not becoming a dictator the strategy can still be used to empower his agenda. The only way to defeat Trumps strategy would be to learn the equivalent of political Tai Chi, however the opposition currently has too much emotional investment in being recalcitrant anti-Trumpers, which lets Trump use them as a straw man to beat up on to gain more power.

Maybe the problem is that the anti-Trump crowd is too obsessed with the idea that they have the 'moral high ground', which was the same mistake the religious right made when they totally lost the last culture war.

[Krille]

Yeah, didn't somebody recently predict that AI would wipe out humanity and colonize the galaxy by 2050?

Wouldn't know, i don't generally like extreme speculation. You could say i was speculating, but it's backed by lots of people who work daily in the AI business and that see the progress they've done recently. It's a matter of time before you can replace routine low skilled labor with machines and that's a HUGE issue on society. A president elected in 2016 (17) should look to already be talking about ways to get purchase power to lower class citizens, or the economy will suffer greatly. And believe me, keeping a 1000 jobs in a field which is under serious threat by automation is not the way to go.

[Wells]

There was no vague threat in this case lol. But I get the scenario, there could be theoretical vague threats, and with those theoretical vague threats, companies may extort money from the government? Because we didn't see that at all with this scenario. Carrier was really planning on sending the jobs to Mexico and Trump managed to save about half of the jobs. Sounds like you are jumping to conclusions based off of one instance of the Donald intervening.

This isn't jumping to conclusions. Its following the very real position that Trump has staked out. That the president will come in and offer you stuff if you say you're cutting jobs.

Time is the most valuable commodity, *especially* for a guy like Trump.

Dude spent tonight holding a rally purely to boost his own ego.

[Venant]

Weren't you bitching about transparency in government not two years ago?

I'm just making an observation of why the anti-Trump tactics are failing, I didn't say that I want him to completely destroy the media.

[Krille]

If somebody wanted to become a dictator, it is standard practice to create an 'enemy' like that and use it to consolidate power, but even if the goal is not becoming a dictator the strategy can still be used to empower his agenda. The only way to defeat Trumps strategy would be to learn the equivalent of political Tai Chi, however the opposition currently has too much emotional investment in being recalcitrant anti-Trumpers, which lets Trump use them as a straw man to beat up on to gain more power.

Maybe the problem is that the anti-Trump crowd is too obsessed with the idea that they have the 'moral high ground', which was the same mistake the religious right made when they totally lost the last culture war.

My comment has more to do with you saying Trump will go hard on the press. You're walking down a sloppy road if you want to crack down on media because they criticize you.

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I'm just making an observation of why the anti-Trump tactics are failing, I didn't say that I want him to completely destroy the media.

Take a moment and think that this is not actually about being Anti-Trump, the person. It's being critical of what he's proposing. I think most people have accepted the fact that he's going to be the next president. Doesnt mean he's immune to criticism. This deal symbolize very short term gains for long term losses, it's a bad deal. EVEN if you get to keep those 1000 jobs. In the big picture, sadly those jobs mean shit.

[Venant]

Wouldn't know, i don't generally like extreme speculation. You could say i was speculating, but it's backed by lots of people who work daily in the AI business and that see the progress they've done recently. It's a matter of time before you can replace routine low skilled labor with machines and that's a HUGE issue on society. A president elected in 2016 (17) should look to already be talking about ways to get purchase power to lower class citizens, or the economy will suffer greatly. And believe me, keeping a 1000 jobs in a field which is under serious threat by automation is not the way to go.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Learning-quot

was a thread on this forum actually, though he didn't specify that they will wipe us out.

Of course, if they automate everything, isn't the question: who is going to have money to buy all the products that these automated factories are producing? If the long term goal is to lower the human population, isn't that somewhat counter productive as it means the human race as a whole will be producing fewer 'geniuses' who have a high chance if advancing technology further through innovation.

[Krille]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Learning-quot

was a thread on this forum actually, though he didn't specify that they will wipe us out.

Of course, if they automate everything, isn't the question: who is going to have money to buy all the products that these automated factories are producing? If the long term goal is to lower the human population, isn't that somewhat counter productive as it means the human race as a whole will be producing fewer 'geniuses' who have a high chance if advancing technology further through innovation.

It's exactly the question. So how do you solve that? It's not by keeping manufacturing jobs that are first in line to be replaced by automation, that's for sure.

[Venant]

My comment has more to do with you saying Trump will go hard on the press. You're walking down a sloppy road if you want to crack down on media because they criticize you.

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Take a moment and think that this is not actually about being Anti-Trump, the person. It's being critical of what he's proposing. I think most people have accepted the fact that he's going to be the next president. Doesnt mean he's immune to criticism. This deal symbolize very short term gains for long term losses, it's a bad deal. EVEN if you get to keep those 1000 jobs. In the big picture, sadly those jobs mean shit.

Your problem is that you are arguing from the point of view that facts somehow matter when it comes to these issues, I suggest reading some of Scott Adams stuff:

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/1539058...oves-and-trump

Its a simple strategy, Trump can explain the Carrier deal as a 'win' with one sentence, your multi paragraph economic analysis isn't going to beat that when it comes to persuasion, even if you are ultimately right. People attempting to write essays explaining why the deal isn't a win are playing directly into his narrative that his opponents are either sore losers or completely unreasonable, and the optics of it are completely in his favor.

[RickJamesLich]

This isn't jumping to conclusions. Its following the very real position that Trump has staked out. That the president will come in and offer you stuff if you say you're cutting jobs.

As has been said, offering incentives to businesses is something that has been done long before Trump. In this case, we know Carrier was legit going to outsource the jobs, The scenario you propose in which businesses will "pretend to outsource jobs" didn't happen yet, so we don't know how Trump will respond. Chances are though, if they stand to save lots of money, they will strongly consider it so the idea that they are bluffing is rather silly. Not sure why you think Trump can't detect a bluff in the world of business.

Dude spent tonight holding a rally purely to boost his own ego.

The victory tour will improve America's moral, plus he's earned the right to do this lol.

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How is 'if you don't give us tax breaks we'll ship these jobs overseas' not extortion?

Like I said, we will see how this plays out but the idea of companies mass bluffing Trump here seems like a pretty naive one. Business is what Trump has done his whole life, plus your situation is entirely theoretical - we haven't seen it play out yet so it's kind of hard to criticize how Trump will actually respond.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Actually, right after Trump won we had people on here saying that this was a time for unity. Presumably because that's what Trump said in his victory speech and his parrots just repeated it.

Which is really rather amusing since we just had 8 years of that party pushing a platform built on disunity.

"Now we know we basically cockblocked you and spent 8 years creating a huge divide in the country, but could you please work with us and help us implement trickle-down economics again? We think it'll work if we do it a second time! If not and the economy crashes, third time's the charm!"

[Krille]

Your problem is that you are arguing from the point of view that facts somehow matter when it comes to these issues, I suggest reading some of Scott Adams stuff:

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/1539058...oves-and-trump

Its a simple strategy, Trump can explain the Carrier deal as a 'win' with one sentence, your multi paragraph economic analysis isn't going to beat that when it comes to persuasion, even if you are ultimately right. People attempting to write essays explaining why the deal isn't a win are playing directly into his narrative that his opponents are either sore losers or completely unreasonable, and the optics of it are completely in his favor.

So he's arguing that the BEST CEO is making the wrong decision for short term psychological gains? Maybe in the corporate sphere. But in presidential affairs, this has a much larger impact. If he's going to take on his presidency as some kind of "i'll make sure i get elected a 2nd time"-scheme rather than actually doing any difference i'd be worried.

[Barnabas]

"Now we know we basically cockblocked you and spent 8 years creating a huge divide in the country, but could you please work with us and help us implement trickle-down economics again? We think it'll work if we do it a second time! If not and the economy crashes, third time's the charm!"

Trump is doing now what the democrats could've done for the past 8 years and they'd still be in power. You don't need congress to work out deals and we keep our tax base and jobs here. Have fun being vindictive a holes for not taking action that was possible.