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  1. #1
    Herald of the Titans Klingers's Avatar
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    Legions Warlocks are just not.... Fun?

    OK, so this now marks my third attempt to come back to Legion and play my since-vanilla main, my Gnome Warlock. I've tried and failed.

    The thing is that I don't want to play another class right off the bat. I like Death Knights and I like Paladins, but I want to play my Warlock.

    I've played every iteration of Warlock since Vanilla. They've had their ups and downs but I've always found something I enjoy. Now? I don't like the spell rotations. I don't like the resource juggling in its current form. I hate what they did to Destruction when I look back at how great it was in MoP and even where it was in WoD by comparison.

    I want to be able to articulate it with a TLDR wall of text on rotational complexity, comparative designs over various other expansions... But I don't think I need that. The problem with warlocks as they stand now is that they're just not fun to play.

    There's all this great Lore in the class campaign and flavour-wise, Demonology's brilliant (even if the mechanical implementation is too clunky to be fun). But I'm not going want to do any of that if the class feels shitty to play. Just viscerally wrong. Not what I signed up for, etc.

    Am I alone in this? Has anyone found major frustration not in the story content or the game systems, but just a gimped-to-all-hell class design for Warlocks?
    Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil.

  2. #2
    Nope, we're not.

    We're awful. Boring. Uninspired. Lazy. The class fantasy has become a joke. Demonology summoning a ton of imps is insulting as supposedly their fantasy. Destruction reminds me nothing of being a destructive force. And I can't speak to Affliction since I refuse to play it.

    BUT ITS OK BECAUSE DEMO AND DESTRO ARE OK ON CERTAIN BOSS FIGHTS!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post
    Am I alone in this? Has anyone found major frustration not in the story content or the game systems, but just a gimped-to-all-hell class design for Warlocks?
    No, you're not alone at all. Numbers-wise, Warlocks can post decent numbers, especially Destro. But Destro is boring as hell to play, Demo is clunky, and Afflic is far more hassle than it's worth.

    Aside from the Warlock parts, Legion would have to be my favorite expansion so far, and I've been playing since BC. But the Warlock story parts are uninspired and none of the specs is any fun to play.

  4. #4
    I like the part where everyone complains, but doesn't propose solutions.

    Even though there are threads containing solutions to coincide with the complaints.

    But in that case, you could have just posted in those.

    But not really, because it would be worthless, without constructive feedback. Your version of a subjectively bad playstyle may be what someone else loves. Destro and Affliction have had extraordinarily similar playstyles for years now (read: similar, not the same). Boring or bad to you, maybe. Offer some solutions if you think "it's just bad or blah" instead of just ranting about it.

  5. #5
    I like the part where everyone complains, but doesn't propose solutions.
    lolwat.

    Nobody proposes solutions sure, if you're actively avoiding people talking about them.

    Unless LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE TIME people talk about Warlocks they need to lay out every single thing needed to fix them? Which is asinine.

  6. #6
    I'm still very bitter about what they've done to demo. Took all the fun out of my favourite spec and class!

    Stupid static boring summoner that has to stand still all the time!

    Boring!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by angrys13 View Post
    I like the part where everyone complains, but doesn't propose solutions.
    When you go to your doctor, you don't try to tell them what sort of medication or surgery you need. You try to describe your symptoms as accurately and thoroughly as possible and let the trained expert do their job.

    Similarly, I don't imagine I'm as clever a game dev as the trained professionals at Blizzard, nor do I know even a fraction of what they do about what is or isn't possible with the game engine. As a dissatisfied player, it's my job to accurately and thoroughly describe why I'm not happy. If that's not enough, then I should look to take my business elsewhere.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans Klingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    When you go to your doctor, you don't try to tell them what sort of medication or surgery you need. You try to describe your symptoms as accurately and thoroughly as possible and let the trained expert do their job.

    Similarly, I don't imagine I'm as clever a game dev as the trained professionals at Blizzard, nor do I know even a fraction of what they do about what is or isn't possible with the game engine. As a dissatisfied player, it's my job to accurately and thoroughly describe why I'm not happy. If that's not enough, then I should look to take my business elsewhere.
    I agree. To continue your doctor analogy, sometimes (in fact a LOT of the time) patients will come in and not be much more useful to the doctor than "something's wrong". The doctor then can ask questions, examine presented symptoms, send off for tests, etc.

    A doctor will generally attempt to get you back to the state you were in when you were last healthy. For warlocks that would be a rollback to MoP. But of course the class dev team aren't doctors. If you come in sick they'll generally try to dress you in neon-pink feathers and graft laser-beams onto your forearm then ask why your fever hasn't come down.
    Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil.

  9. #9
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by angrys13 View Post
    I like the part where everyone complains, but doesn't propose solutions.
    And when we do some dickwad pipes up and says that if we know so much maybe we should ship a game.


    Its fine to point out issues without solving them. That's what we pay Blizzard to do.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post
    I agree. To continue your doctor analogy, sometimes (in fact a LOT of the time) patients will come in and not be much more useful to the doctor than "something's wrong". The doctor then can ask questions, examine presented symptoms, send off for tests, etc.

    A doctor will generally attempt to get you back to the state you were in when you were last healthy. For warlocks that would be a rollback to MoP. But of course the class dev team aren't doctors. If you come in sick they'll generally try to dress you in neon-pink feathers and graft laser-beams onto your forearm then ask why your fever hasn't come down.
    An actual full game rollback to MoP as far as class design goes would address everyone's problems except for Shadow Priests they weren't in a great spot but other than them I don't recall any other class having a problem with how their class played and "felt". Not going to happen though sadly.
    When I was younger I used to hope bad things wouldn't happen.
    Now I just hope they're at least funny when they do.

  11. #11
    Demo is perfectly fine to play. If it feels clunky, get more haste. It's as simple as that.

  12. #12
    Destruction ST and cleave has barely changed, so I continue to enjoy that. The aoe kit leaves a lot to be desired vs previous iterations.

    I knew right off the bat once I heard about the design that I wouldn't enjoy demo, and I don't. I'd much rather they went the opposite direction and put more focus into meta as opposed to becoming about guardians. I especially don't enjoy demonic empowerment.

    For aff, I'm not a fan of how short of a duration the dots have, otherwise its pretty par the course.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  13. #13
    They should make imps spawn next to us with a long range on their firebolts so we can see them better

  14. #14
    Deleted
    I am soooo freaking sick and tired of these posts... every single one of them "Warlock's boring, bring back MoP", and then I think back what was so different about MoP Destro: Was there really that much difference?

    - Casting while moving. Well, that didn't seem to be a good design since they already rolled that back in WoD. I quite liked it but have to admit myself that it is hard to balance. Seeing the latest nerfs to iceflows, I don't think we will get that back. And then again, why should we? Wasn't the case in any expansion before MoP or any after.

    - Embers. That's just a flavor. Not that different from Soulshards, except for the more plannable generation. It still was more or less the same playstyle: Cast non-Ember/Shard consuming stuff until you have enough to cast Ember/Shard consuming stuff

    - Snapshotting. Well, the council boss fight in SoO alone shows how bad a design that was.

    So, what exactly makes destro more boring than before?

    The Mastery? That's just a lot of people jumping on a "I hate RNG" bandwagon. I've yet to see a single person actually feeling the difference. Or do you actually really look at every single chaos bolt damage you cast and say "Oh, that one didn't hit as hard as the other". At least me personally, I haven't seen heavy fluctuation in my DPS because of Mastery (might be related to the fact that I don't really focus much on mastery on gear)

    The RNG Shard Generation? Yes, that can be a bit of an annoyance, but again: For me it makes it more interesting because you actually have to manage your resource instead of stupidly push your rotation. I might be biased because I have the leggy belt that helps quite a bit getting the shards. I have more problems overcapping than being shard starved now.

    Demo: Yes, it's different than before. Things change. Get used to it.
    Biggest concerns that I've read for demo is "empowerment is annoying", "immobile" and "we only have an army of imps"

    "Empowerment": Yes it's a bit annoying, but I don't find it as game-breaking as everyone else it seems. It's part of the rotation, so I use it. End of story.
    "immobile": Yes you are. That makes the spec interesting to play: you actually have to PLAN the fight instead of simply mashing buttons. Sure, when your targeted by a boss abiltiy, you'll lose quite some dps, but then again - who cares if you're 50-60k dps worse in one unlucky try.
    "Only army of imps": Well, the mechanical problems can't be that bad that this graphical issue gets mentioned so often

    Sorry for this rant, but the more I read those "boring" posts, the more agitated it makes me.

  15. #15
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Destruction is mostly the same, it also got some nifty nice things to it that help a lot in the fun department. Rifts and LoF are awesome. Would be even better if LoF would replace Summon Doomguard for good as 3 min CD.

    The thing I don't like is what was done to it in the name of the Class Fantasy, namely Life Tap, GoSac no longer being true petless alternative and that aside, AoE is a downgrade.

    But overall, I think it's fine really. I really hope they will iterate on what is not good there and retain what is good, of which there is quite a bit too.

  16. #16
    destro seems fine to me gameplay wise, and aff would be okay if it weren't chained to stupid soul effigy for its ST

    demo I badly wanted to like, but just doesn't work for me. I still am not sure I believe demonic empowerment became a thing; like who thought it would be fun to spend a nontrivial portion of your active time casting a spell that does no damage, generates no resources and has little visual effect? It's like BM hunter, only if BM had to stand still and hardcast rather than just waiting for focus.

  17. #17
    I'm not one advocating for exactly MoP Destro, much as I enjoyed it. But as the Dev post today acknowledged, having Embers build more slowly and predictably suited the spec better than Legion's more random and frequent Soul Shards. It meant less frequent and more substantial Chaos Bolts, which felt more satisfying. It meant a rotation built around slowly accumulating a secondary resource and dumping it in combination with procs or cooldowns. There was also the "blue bar Rogue" mana system, with the need to weave in some of those long cast mana-free Chaos Bolts to give your blue bar time to regenerate, which added to engagement.

    That spec can't be simply be copy and pasted into Legion. The procs and cooldowns it depended on don't exist anymore. But really, a lot of the problem is that Legion Destro is still trying to be MoP Destro instead of making a clean break. Reverse Entropy is just a crude facsimile of Chaotic Energies, which only very roughly approximates the playstyle without being nearly as fun. Destro is desperately trying to hold onto the tattered remnants of past glories without being willing to let go and do something new that's better suited to the changed game environment. It's much like how Legion Afflic is a crude imitation of Wrath Afflic that's completely unsuited for today's game environment, and how Legion Demo is all flavor and no substance.

  18. #18
    The only problems I have with Demo right now are purely cosmetic.
    Feels kinda meh to just summon imps and felhunters that you barely see anyway.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Socronoss View Post
    .
    Wow, that's basically how I feel about warlocks this expansion as well!

  20. #20
    Brewmaster Uzkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    We're awful. Boring. Uninspired. Lazy. The class fantasy has become a joke. Demonology summoning a ton of imps is insulting as supposedly their fantasy. Destruction reminds me nothing of being a destructive force. And I can't speak to Affliction since I refuse to play it.
    This is an almost perfect summary of the Legion warlock, unfortunately.

    I am particularly sad about how they ripped out the very soul of destro. It is no longer a force of destruction with big pre-planned/prepared moments of total mayhem but rather an rng mess of pets, guardians and dots which is shoehorned into exploiting a single ridiculous OP talent in order to function at all. In addition, MANY of the fun little features that helped define the identity and fantasy of the spec were simply taken away whilst some of the most annoying old features that were removed long ago for a good reason were force-fed back into the spec (typically in their worst incarnations ever). The Legion design betrays everything that was appealing in the MoP/WoD destro. But hey, after almost a year of criticism they finally stopped being ignorant/in denial and admitted that "something important was lost" during their little "polish". Lol.

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