Did TBC ever get any complaints in its time?

[Straamibuu]

Certainly the so called "Welfare Epics" were all the rage back then (to complain about).
The Alliance having Fear Ward on two priest races.
The horde gaining a "pretty" race seemed to offended the Vanilla horde players.

[Akka]

If you are going to compare it to item level it would be more accurate to compare it to somebody in gear that is stated poorly for them. They could use the gear that would help them more, but they choose to stack something that doesn't get the job done the same way.

No, I'm just making a parallel between how some habits in the game don't reflect in absolute. Lots of groups today don't accept people with inflated ilvl - this doesn't mean that these people are really blacklisted and can't play, but that's how the forums talk about.
Just like lots of groups in TBC didn't dare to do heroics without CC, or many raids disreguarded some classes/spec. This doesn't mean people playing these spec couldn't play, but that's how the forums talked about, and that's basically what people now believe was an absolute truth, even if it's quite far from what happened in practice.

As for people being brain washed by forums that wasn't it certainly classes were just much worse. You have also said only bleeding edge progression groups care about specs/comps but the lower end raids filled with lower skilled players should care even more, because they absolutely need ever drop of damage, healing or survival they can get.

That's just an absurd and counter-factual argument. It's the bleeding edge guilds which have very high requirements, and the lower ones which take it easier. The fact you seem to invert this kind of speak of how seriously I should take you.

---

You're really misremembering if you think that.

E.g. TBC raid took Enh shaman for one reason only -- drop WF totem in the 3 rogue/1 warr/1 Enh group. Enh was doing 30% less than everyone else but WF totem was boosting the other 4 damage by 30%. Needless to say that if you didnt have a 2nd melee group you never took a second Enh shaman. This was by design. Dev-approved.
Shadowpriests were 50% behind mages (but did restore mana to the healers and thus you wanted exactly 1/healer group).

Both are flat-out wrong and comical exageration, and are perfect illustration of the culture of forum myth I'm describing, and applying world-first habits to the world at large.
Enh Shaman were (like all hybrid) below pure DPS classes, but they were never, ever, even close to 30 % below. And they would be happily accepted not only because they had very decent damage, but also because you never sneered at another heroism.
Ditto for Shadowpriest, which were never that far lost - and as a matter of fact, if you wanted to compare them to a very high damage spellcaster class, you should have used destro lock, as mages were actually rather overlooked in TBC and were consistantly behind, while shadowbolt-spam was, sadly, supreme.

Again, these ridiculous affirmation ("this class was 50 % below !!!!") are exactly, the perfect example of people who just internalized the forums BS to the point they think it's an exact reflection of the truth, while it's just that : forum BS, which is based on some reality, but is (as is common on every forum) turned up to eleven to make an impact... but then it's taken as gospel and people start to believe the exageration is factual.

Another example - ret pallies even after they got their damage buffed didn't get a threat drop ability. That meant that they had to hold back their dps (up to 30% dps loss IIRC) AND a horrible 'don't press any buttons' gameplay. Before they got their damage buffed they were behind by something ridiculous -- like 40% and suffered from insane RNG design.

Not having a threat drop was a regular and normal occurence in TBC - threat was a whole part of the gameplay, and a raid-wide effort. Retpal weren't in any case special about it (shaman, druid and warriors didn't have any threat drop abilities either).
Actually, a common joke for our shamans was to say "I HAVE a threat management ability ! It's called Reincarnation !".
Also it's pretty hard to both claim "retpal couldn't manage aggro !" in the same sentence as saying "retpal couldn't do damage !", as threat was a direct consequence of damage : if they did 40 % damage less than anyone, then why aggro would have been a problem ?

[Alvito]

No, I'm just making a parallel between how some habits in the game don't reflect in absolute. Lots of groups today don't accept people with inflated ilvl - this doesn't mean that these people are really blacklisted and can't play, but that's how the forums talk about.
Just like lots of groups in TBC didn't dare to do heroics without CC, or many raids disreguarded some classes/spec. This doesn't mean people playing these spec couldn't play, but that's how the forums talked about, and that's basically what people now believe was an absolute truth, even if it's quite far from what happened in practice.

That's just an absurd and counter-factual argument. It's the bleeding edge guilds which have very high requirements, and the lower ones which take it easier. The fact you seem to invert this kind of speak of how seriously I should take you.

---


Both are flat-out wrong and comical exageration, and are perfect illustration of the culture of forum myth I'm describing, and applying world-first habits to the world at large.
Enh Shaman were (like all hybrid) below pure DPS classes, but they were never, ever, even close to 30 % below. And they would be happily accepted not only because they had very decent damage, but also because you never sneered at another heroism.
Ditto for Shadowpriest, which were never that far lost - and as a matter of fact, if you wanted to compare them to a very high damage spellcaster class, you should have used destro lock, as mages were actually rather overlooked in TBC and were consistantly behind, while shadowbolt-spam was, sadly, supreme.

Again, these ridiculous affirmation ("this class was 50 % below !!!!") are exactly, the perfect example of people who just internalized the forums BS to the point they think it's an exact reflection of the truth, while it's just that : forum BS, which is based on some reality, but is (as is common on every forum) turned up to eleven to make an impact... but then it's taken as gospel and people start to believe the exageration is factual.

Not having a threat drop was a regular and normal occurence in TBC - threat was a whole part of the gameplay, and a raid-wide effort. Retpal weren't in any case special about it (shaman, druid and warriors didn't have any threat drop abilities either).
Actually, a common joke for our shamans was to say "I HAVE a threat management ability ! It's called Reincarnation !".
Also it's pretty hard to both claim "retpal couldn't manage aggro !" in the same sentence as saying "retpal couldn't do damage !", as threat was a direct consequence of damage : if they did 40 % damage less than anyone, then why aggro would have been a problem ?

You calling your opinions facts shows how seriously everybody should take you. If you can't connect the dots on lower skilled or lower progressed groups need every advantage they can muster, then you really are delusional.

[cFortyfive]

Again, these ridiculous affirmation ("this class was 50 % below !!!!") are exactly, the perfect example of people who just internalized the forums BS to the point they think it's an exact reflection of the truth, while it's just that : forum BS, which is based on some reality, but is (as is common on every forum) turned up to eleven to make an impact... but then it's taken as gospel and people start to believe the exageration is factual.

Shouldn't really come as a surprise given even with all the data around people still are terribly misinformed. Most probably back then didn't even use one of the better meters.

[Deleted]

PvP was absolute garbage during BC, arenas were a joke filled with warriors, 2 button demo warlocks (and the pet was actually pretty op at that time), resto druids which overhealed simply by stacking lifeblooms and kitting,...

It was one of the worst moments for PVP.

PVE wise, a pretty solid expansion, dungeons were still challenging at the time without the artificial need for "mythic+" stuff like we have in Legion. Raids where solid and iconic.

My main issue with the expansion was that compared to vanilla, the game started to feel a bit bland, less social, outland was very "outlandish" compared to azeroth. The immersive experience wasn't that good. Something they made better with Northrend areas during WOTLK.

[Deleted]

I haven't been on this forum much during TBC so I must've missed out any complaint that this expansion had. And so far every other expansion has had plenty of them. Thinking back I don't think it received a lot of criticism from my POV, the only thing being all the lore changes like the draenei retcon and how poorly they've written WC3 characters. But TBC improved over a lot of things like the gameplay and more fluid questing, and I don't remember people craving to go back to vanilla WoW so badly.

So what more did I more did i miss during this period?

A ton of hate. Same as vanilla. People just can't remember that, mainly because fanbois didn't even play back then.

[TheRabidDeer]

I enjoyed TBC a lot. It was probably close to my peak for playing with friends and also being in a high end guild. It was great being in the #1 guild on the realm and I was often regarded as the best druid on the server (for PvE at least, probably #2 for PvP) so it was a cool experience having people look up to me and asking for advice. I enjoyed Karazhan even though some people say they hated it. It was a great source of gold for a long time which meant I didn't have to farm or do extra stuff outside of that. Despite all this it did have some issues. The biggest issue for me was the huge amount of time between content from BT to sunwell. Well, either that or the huge server issues around this time. IIRC they actually offered free transfers for our server to another one because it was so overpopulated. Every night for a few weeks in a row we would hit a wall of lag and that completely sucked.

[Tziva]

Yes. BC was the start of classic guilds for a reason; people who vehemently opposed the expansion and wanted to continue playing as if it didn't exist.

The big complaints I remember, at least initially, were with the lore. People hated the concept of Draenei and felt that Outland was some kind of retcon. I remember many, many, many complaints about that kind of thing from lore junkies, although I couldn't tell you exactly what or why because I was not (nor am I now) a lore nerd.

That was also when we first started seeing terms like "welfare epics," because of both the badge system (farm KZ and get Sunwell gear) and arena. People also complained (justifiably) about PvP tuning; that was the era where you'd have druid arena matches that lasted hours. Class balance in both PvE and PvP had much, much, much larger gaps between them than we see today. There were also complaints about the tuning of heroics, which took hours before people were raid-geared. There was problems with the attunement system which encouraged raid poaching, and plenty pointed that out. Sunwell's timing was unideal, as were a lot of comp issues it caused (stacking shaman, paladins waiting outside to drop buffs, etc). Crafting was a double edged sword; it was nice to make super powerful stuff for yourself, but it also wasn't nice to basically have to reroll certain professions to get BiS gear. People weren't blind to any of this stuff.

That's what I remember off the top of my head, but I'm sure there was plenty more. I enjoyed BC quite a bit, but it had it's problems. And, even if it didn't, there's always going to be people that will complain anyway.

[TheRabidDeer]

I find it interesting that so many are saying that druids were so OP in arena in TBC when Rogue/Mage/Priest was dominant for pretty much the entire expansion.

[Tziva]

I find it interesting that so many are saying that druids were so OP in arena in TBC when Rogue/Mage/Priest was dominant for pretty much the entire expansion.

I can't speak to other people, but my reference to druids in arena wasn't to claim they were OP. There was some kind of gimmick where people would go in on a druid (resto I believe) and they'd just stealth when they got low, wait until they were back full again, and go back out, dragging out the matches for literally hours. I think that's why Blizzard ended up adding that de-stealthing periodic tick.

I didn't arena and that was like nearly a decade ago, so I don't remember precisely what the situation was, I just remember it being a thing. But it wasn't an issue with druids being OP.

[Super Kami Dende]

Yes. Many. People's nostalgia generally only makes them think of the good though.

[Akka]

You calling your opinions facts shows how seriously everybody should take you. If you can't connect the dots on lower skilled or lower progressed groups need every advantage they can muster, then you really are delusional.

Yeah, casual guilds have much higher requirements than bleeding edge guilds and ask much more of their players and minimax more :lol:

I guess it says it all. Thanks for proving you have no clues and shouldn't be listened to.

[Dhrizzle]

PvP was absolute garbage during BC, arenas were a joke filled with warriors, 2 button demo warlocks (and the pet was actually pretty op at that time), resto druids which overhealed simply by stacking lifeblooms and kitting,...

It was one of the worst moments for PVP.

Pretty sure SL/SL locks needed at least 4 bindings - CoAgony, Corruption, Siphon Life and Drain Life. Possibly Immolate too. They were the original face-roll spec because you could assign those spells to a row and literally roll your face along the keyboard.

PVE wise, a pretty solid expansion, dungeons were still challenging at the time without the artificial need for "mythic+" stuff like we have in Legion. Raids where solid and iconic

TBC had heroic dungeons which were an "artificial" way of extending the challenge. Mythic+ is just an expansion of this system.

[thilicen]

Everything in WoW in the history of ever has been targeted by the bitch-crowd. And so it shall continue.

[Liftbrul]

If this hasn't been posted already, I'm gonna be very disappointed:

http://lorelol.ytmnd.com/

[setsuna f seiei]

Hamstring spamming sword specced, crafted sword arms warriors calls BS on this

rank 1 warlock curse doing more damage than a max level rend was fun too.

[Zantera]

There have always been complaints in every expansion. People love whining.

[Leonora]

This. Not to mention the rep grinds to get the keys just to be able to do heroics. I still can't stand to set foot in Shadow Labyrinth. The amount of times it had to be run was ridiculous and gods help you if you had set pieces in there.

Same. Aside from Nagrand and parts of Terokkar, I found most of the zones visually unappealing. The story was incoherent. It felt like there were less dungeons than there were due to low resource variety.

Yes. People who are anti-LFD either didn't experience or don't remember how bad getting groups was in BC, especially if you didn't have a CC which basically ruled out every single hybrid class. It wasn't uncommon, if you were one of those unfortunate individuals, to not even be able to get the daily heroic done.

PvP balance was non-existent.

I am curious. If you found grinds so terrible, why were you even playing the game? You just came out of Vanilla, where the grinds were even worse. At the time we did not know better. if this kind of game was not for you, why persist?

Apart from vanilla, TBC has the highest amount of instances ever. And then the heroic versions, which gave a totally different flavour. Not sure how your perception is - dat you dislike 5 men or something?

The remarks on small servers and trouble finding groups make me wonder if you were in no guild, or a small guild, or a badly working guild. If so, I am sorry for you - but an MMO plays easier with an extended supportgroup.

[Deleted]

It received many, yes. From profound hatred of Shadow Labyrinth, to the bizarre and seemingly endless attunement process for Karazhan and other raids, and reputation grinds that truly emphasized the word "grind."

all the things you said are + to TBC overall note.

[Sadoraan]

Not sure if it has been mentioned in the thread already, but for anyone who is thinking of starting up an "X expansion is catering to casuals" bullshit thread, or just wants to see how long people have been complaining about that sort of thing:

Look on wowpedia about the guild Death and Taxes. They were one of the absolute top guilds in Vanilla and they essentially disbanded towards the end of BC after posting a MASSIVE forum tirade about how BC has casualized raiding, how awful Sunwell was, how so many good players were quitting and they couldn't get the recruitment numbers and about how Naxx was the peak of wow but obviously people just don't want hardcore gaming anymore.

It's hilarious how it could have been literally copied and pasted from threads in every single expac.