Flying 7.2 Confirmed

[Dhrizzle]

It's simple PVP vs PVE.

It's absolutely nothing to do with PvP. I don't play on a PvP server and it's incredibly rare that my encounters with other players in the world are anything but cooperative. Even if it's the opposite faction (so we don't share tags) I usually throw a couple of Conflagarates at their mob as I run past.

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@SirCowdog

As has been explained multiple times, when Blizz develop content they have an idea about how long they want the average player to spend each day, and how that time will translate into progression over the days, weeks and months of the expansion.

If they design and pace content with the intent of it being tackled from the ground they can not include flight as most players will likely adopt it as the fastest/easiest/most efficient way to complete the content. This will mean that most players will be experiencing the game in an unintended way, making the time spent developing for the ground largely pointless, and also they'll run through the content too quickly and complain about having nothing to do.

If they pace the content around players flying then players who choose a ground mount will progress at a slower rate than Blizzard intend, falling behind with additional content releases, and also have their enjoyment by "opportunity cost" - in other words knowing that they are intentionally gimping themselves and reducing the rate at which they receive rewards makes the whole game less enjoyable.

So Blizzard had to make a choice, and as they feel (along with the majority of fantasy RPG developers) that playing from the ground delivers a more immersive and satisfying experience that is what they have chosen to develop.

[rebecca191]

Totally agree. I was just curious about Dhrizzle's stance in the discussion, seeing where his preferences are and why he's against flying. I like to at least try to understand both sides of the argument, even if I don't agree with em. I don't think there's a right or wrong either, so I'm more interested in seeing other opinions and getting a broader scope of how people view flying. Sometimes the idea of 'Jeez, flying isn't that important lol' is projected onto anyone who criticizes flight, and I'd like to avoid that by getting some perspective. I was just curious if there's something deeper to the downsides of flight other than being a 'necessary nuisance'.

The thing is, Blizzard did fine in the fast with pleasing both types of players by allowing flying in the main expansion areas and then adding smaller questing areas without flight. The only one of these I liked was IQD, but I didn't mind the existence of the others because there was still other content in those expacs that allowed flight at level cap. I just don't get why they abandoned that design. I don't think I will ever understand. They pissed off loyal, long term players who loved flying and needlessly divided the playerbase in two for no good reason.

[Dhrizzle]

The thing is, Blizzard did fine in the fast with pleasing both types of players by allowing flying in the main expansion areas and then adding smaller questing areas without flight. The only one of these I liked was IQD, but I didn't mind the existence of the others because there was still other content in those expacs that allowed flight at level cap. I just don't get why they abandoned that design. I don't think I will ever understand. They pissed off loyal, long term players who loved flying and needlessly divided the playerbase in two for no good reason.

Blizz don't want to offer what they consider better content only at the end of the expansion, they'd rather have the end-game feel more like an extension of the leveling experience.

As for them doing fine, MoP was the first expansion where I didn't concentrate on dungeons/raids/instances for end-game and I found the world content lacking so I quit that expansion quicker than any other.

[WowIsDead64]

I agree with the idea behind it, but there are still inconsistencies within PVP effectiveness being the reason its removed.

We have PVP servers that are separate from PVE, it's as easy as capping it to the server. Also, even in Ashran, they implemented Book of Flight Form for Druids, which are the last class who should even have access to flight. Bears dropping from the skies!

PVE effectiveness has to be a factor in this reasoning as well. It still doesn't make complete sense to me though, considering we have flight whistles and goblin gliders that cover the gap; but I guess Blizzard is okay with flight as long as there are limitations they can control so they can pace the first-half expansion content. Pathfinder's time gating is a poorly implemented half-measure.

As I've said, I've carefully analyzed my gameplay to find any flaws in it. And, I will be honest, I've found some things, that can be treated by Blizzard as wrong ones:
1) Flying allows me to ignore primary objectives and focus on secondary ones, that are more effective to do - on blood spheres, flags, rare mobs, etc. I.e. Blizzard give me 1% for mobs (that is obviously WAY TOO SLOW) and 3-5% for secondary objectives and for example put this secondary objective on the top of towers and expect me to kill all mobs on my way to this objectives. I ignore all mobs and get directly to secondary objectives instead.
2) Flying allows me to avoid competition with other players. I don't need to try to pull mobs/items from other players' hands - all I need, is to hop on my flying mount and move away to other spot.

And of course players, who don't fly, feel, that they have disadvantage due to this reasons. But, as you can see, problem isn't with flying - it's with design of such content itself. The fact, that Blizzard make so small locations with so limited amount of mobs/items, implement secondary objectives, that give you more reasonable progress, than primary ones, but limits their amount and tries to restrict access to them, shows us one obvious thing - BLIZZARD WANT US TO COMPETE FOR THIS LIMITED RESOURCES. If there wouldn't be any competition - players wouldn't care, that other players do content some other way. Why can't Blizzard give equal amount of progression % for all objectives? Why it's more effective to take some stupid Blood Sphere, than killing mobs, that encourages rat behavior (stealing objectives, while enemy is in combat with mobs, that guard them)? I think, it's simply bad game design. And flying has nothing to do with this problem.

And... Two another things:
1) Flying kills immersion? No. I'm actually RPer and I need immersion. Flying doesn't kill immersion. What kills immersion - is stupid AOE-fest simulator gameplay. Immersion means "imagining, that all, that happens - is real". How can I imagine, that I really beat my enemies, if they're being farmed non-stop 24/7, players fight for them to kill them first and as fast, as possible, and mobs are respawning every 10 seconds? Vanilla/TBC/WotLK were immersive, cuz mob respawn timer was enough to do whole quest, so you were really feeling, that you were beating all your enemies. Also. Doing the same thing again, again and again - isn't immersive. Yeah, it's immersive to explore world for the first time, but there is nothing immersive in exploration, if you already know every corner of this world and can do it with your eyes closed. So, there is no immersion, when you do the same content second time - on alt for example. And there is no reason to have flying disabled, after some piece of content is already 100% completed on one character.
2) Flying is gamebreaking cheat, that provides unintended level of efficiency? No. I do Tanaan with flying now and sky isn't falling due to this fact. You should understand, that efficiency works the same way, as immersion - you pick your efficiency by yourself - according to amount of effort, you're ready to invest into game. If you feel, that you don't have enough content - it's yours and only yours choice to do it slower. For example: yesterday I was doing Tanaan on my new character. Of course this character has weak gear - ~600 greens/blues + several 650+ Baleful items from Shipyard. I started to do Tanaan at 6:00pm and ended at 9:30pm with break between 7:30pm and 8:30pm (to drink tea, read some news, take some rest) - i.e. 2.5 hours. With flying. Yeah... And how much time would it have taken without flying? 3 hours? 4 hours? 5 hours? M? What amount of time, spent there, is "right"? Do you understand, that I need to go to sleep at 10pm and 1% per mob progression is way to slow? Do you understand, that now my character is way too weak to kill mobs in some areas directly, so I need to find workarounds, like trying to grab items instead (I can't just pull 10 mobs and AOE them, like I was doing in my full 695 Baleful Blood DK)? Do you understand, that I'm adult and Wow - isn't the only thing in my life? Do you understand, that Tanaan provides 1 item of 13 every two days, if I complete all zones, except Throne? Do you understand, that Tanaan provides 1 item of 13 every 2.5 days, if I do quests only? Do you understand, that it's 26-40 days of farming? Isn't it enough? Do you understand, that if it would take more time, I wouldn't even do it, cuz it wouldn't be worth effort, it would require?

Conclusion is simple - WITHOUT FLYING I WOULDN'T EVEN DO THIS CONTENT. As simple, as that. That's why I haven't bought Legion.

[Zalamander]

As for them doing fine, MoP was the first expansion where I didn't concentrate on dungeons/raids/instances for end-game and I found the world content lacking so I quit that expansion quicker than any other.

Yeah look, even you love flying to an extent that you quit because end content in MoP was a no fly island. I enjoyed it pretty much tho since I could lift off outside and goblin glider to anywhere on the island.
Have you know tho that I loved MoP over any expansion while Legion is the expansion I quit earlier than any others. WoD learned me how terrible the world is without flying. Not wanna waste another expansion that way again so please come 7.2 already.

I did enjoy raiding pretty much through the end of MoP tho. Sadly MoP was one of the weaker expansions on the dungeons area.

[Deleted]

Well that's bollocks, I'm only doing LFR for transmog stuff and spend most of my time doing world quests or in Surimar.

And you think you are not in some kind of minority? I say you are because most people just doing LFR but mostly play the world content like to play it in a flying way far more than on the ground. So what you say is bollocks, minority bunny.

Oh you ask for proof? I have delivered just as much proof as you did. But latest development points more in my direction than yours.

[Dhrizzle]

Yeah look, even you love flying to an extent that you quit because end content in MoP was a no fly island.

Not even close. The no-fly islands came quite late in MoP (patches 5.2 and 5.3 or .4 I think,) I had gone before 5.1 was released.

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And you think you are not in some kind of minority? I say you are because most people just doing LFR but mostly play the world content like to play it in a flying way far more than on the ground. So what you say is bollocks, minority bunny.

Oh you ask for proof? I have delivered just as much proof as you did. But latest development points more in my direction than yours.

I've no idea who is in the majority or minority, all we know is Blizzard liked the results of no-flight in Draenor enough that they almost removed it altogether and felt happy using the Pathfinder system in Legion. Personally I find that accommodates my preference very well. If you feel the same I guess everyone is a winner.

[rda]

I've no idea who is in the majority or minority, all we know is Blizzard liked the results of no-flight in Draenor enough that they almost removed it altogether and felt happy using the Pathfinder system in Legion. Personally I find that accommodates my preference very well. If you feel the same I guess everyone is a winner.

May I ask - if and when they reduce time to flying to, I don't know, two months from launch - will you then say that this no longer accommodates your preference very well loudly and clearly? Because I suspect you will simply say that this is fine, because you don't really have any position, your only position regarding flying is that you are mostly indifferent and so whatever Blizzard are doing to it is fine.

[Dhrizzle]

May I ask - if and when they reduce time to flying to, I don't know, two months from launch - will you then say that this no longer accommodates your preference very well loudly and clearly? Because I suspect you will simply say that this is fine, because you don't really have any position, your only position regarding flying is that you are mostly indifferent and so whatever Blizzard are doing to it is fine.

It depends, if I find the game as dull as I found MoP I might mention it once or twice but I won't be continuously posting about how terrible Blizzard are or inventing conspiracy theories about why the game isn't catering to me. I'd just move on and play something else until the next expansion.

[rda]

It depends, if I find the game as dull as I found MoP I might mention it once or twice but I won't be continuously posting about how terrible Blizzard are or inventing conspiracy theories about why the game isn't catering to me. I'd just move on and play something else until the next expansion.

This proves my point, your position is that you mostly don't care and so whatever Blizzard are doing with flying is fine.

This puts in perspective all your posts on flying. You don't care about flying enough to complain if Blizzard change it to what it was or close to what it was. But you still write tons of posts (35 just in this last short thread) telling stories about how flying is bad as if it was genuine. Sum total, you care not about flying, you care about grappling in the forums.

[Dhrizzle]

This proves my point, your position is that you mostly don't care and so whatever Blizzard are doing with flying is fine.

How do you translate "I'll mention my displeasure and quit playing" as "whatever they do is fine"?

This puts in perspective all your posts on flying. You don't care about flying enough to complain if Blizzard change it to what it was or close to what it was. But you still write tons of posts (35 just in this last short thread) telling stories about how flying is bad as if it was genuine. Sum total, you care not about flying, you care about grappling in the forums.

What I care about is whether or not I'm enjoying the game and why. If I am enjoying the game I'm more likely to visit a fan-site like MMO-C and post here, if I wasn't I'd move on once my subscription runs out. I'm posting a lot in the flight threads because that's where people are posting things that run contrary to my experiences, often whilst pretending that their opinions are facts and somehow disprove my opinions or invalidate Blizzard's reasons for making the game a certain way.

[xanzul]

Totally think that whether flight is better or not depends on how a particular player plays the game.

Game design isn't built around individual players but players as a whole especially when it comes to online games such as mmos which is something you flybabies need to think long and hard on about why before throwing a collective hissy fit over the next nonsensical "hot button" issue. The fact you people are still spewing this nonsense after literally years of Blizzard devs repeatedly attempting to explain their design philosophy on flying shows why there is no point in them continuing a discourse with irrational self absorbed insufferable people.

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99% of it already is a mindless chore to begin with.

I really have to wonder why you people play this game.

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Because even if the content is nerfed into a mindless chore, the prolonged travel time required to get to the content is a waste of time. People don't have problems with grinding because it's still content. Few people will regard ground travel between World Quests as content worth abandoning flight for.

You do realize people have done Wod content with flying and found that flying didn't actually speed anything up right?

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You fly and watch TV anyways every time you use a flight path. Are you saying you don't use flight paths either?

The difference from flight paths is that with flight I'd be able to use my own custom mount which I earned rather than the generic one provided by the zone.

And I'd argue that travel time isn't a part of the content at all. It's a separate entity, as you wouldn't include 'flying on a flight path' to be considered content when you do world quests either. You wouldn't consider walking to a dungeon's entrance to be content when doing a dungeon if you opted to use LFG systems. You wouldn't consider walking to the entrance of a Raid to be Raid content all the same, considering you could easily be summoned to its entrance or even directly inside by the raid group.

Dungeons already have efficient, convenient ways of bypassing the need for flightpath/ground-based travel. But hey, if you're the type of person who enjoys riding to the dungeon's entrance every time you do them, more power to you. That doesn't mean everyone else should be subject to doing that.

Why do you people constantly prattle on about flight paths? There is more than one travel option if you can't or don't fly which you people would know if you actually bothered to play the game you spend so much time whining about.

[Thimagryn]

You do realize people have done Wod content with flying and found that flying didn't actually speed anything up right?

How many of those people are Druid players?

Why do you people constantly prattle on about flight paths? There is more than one travel option if you can't or don't fly which you people would know if you actually bothered to play the game you spend so much time whining about.

I didn't make any indication that there weren't options other than flight paths. If you think I hate flight paths though, you totally missed the context of my message. I was debunking a negative myth about flight being AFK mode by drawing a comparison to Flight Paths which work the same way. I imagine that you saw this as an attack on flight paths, got triggered and drew the conclusion that I'm a pro-flighter whining about flight paths. Good job bro.

[WowIsDead64]

I see Blizzards' laziness as major reason for all problems. They want to sit on several chairs at the same time - they want to make one content for all different players, they have. This should be obvious, if you would look at all their problems with not enough content in all previous xpacks, starting from Cata. This is just wrong. Look at Tanaan for example. It has different zones, that suit different players. For example zones, where mobs have either inflated HP or are even elite ones - suit players, who prefer to play in groups. I.e. you should clearly understand, that giving 1% of progress for killing mob with 100500 HP for 10 minutes (only if you can kill it in a first place, lol) - just can't be considered an effective way to play the game. And you have to do them all, if you want to be even nearly effective.

What Blizzard need to do? Make different optional (and even mutually exclusive) kinds of content for different players. For example: finishing leveling for the first time should grant account wide flying in leveling content, there should be endgame zone with flying, there should be dedicated no flying zone for PVP/competitive PVE, there should be dedicated no flying zone for lore/exploration, there should be dedicated zone with elite mobs for players, who prefer to play in groups. That's it.

That's, how TBC, WotLK and Cata worked. Flying was allowed right from the start, but there were dedicated zones for different activities. Tol'Barad for PVP and competitive PVE for example.

It's "not enough content" problem forced Blizzard to force all players into the same kinds of content, no matter, if they like it or not. For example 4.2 had nothing, except no flying PVP/competitive PVE Molten Front daily zone and raid, that wasn't even puggable. What casual players should have done in this case? They had to play this crap, cuz there wasn't any other content for them.

[rda]

Game design isn't built around individual players but players as a whole especially when it comes to online games such as mmos which is something you flybabies need to think long and hard on about why before throwing a collective hissy fit over the next nonsensical "hot button" issue. The fact you people are still spewing this nonsense after literally years of Blizzard devs repeatedly attempting to explain their design philosophy on flying shows why there is no point in them continuing a discourse with irrational self absorbed insufferable people.

This was in reply to this phrase of mine:

"Totally think that whether flight is better or not depends on how a particular player plays the game."

What nonsense am I spewing? What is your problem with what I am saying about flying? Do you know what I am saying about flying?

I can write a chatbot that would form more coherent thoughts than you.

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I didn't make any indication that there weren't options other than flight paths. If you think I hate flight paths though, you totally missed the context of my message. I was debunking a negative myth about flight being AFK mode by drawing a comparison to Flight Paths which work the same way. I imagine that you saw this as an attack on flight paths, got triggered and drew the conclusion that I'm a pro-flighter whining about flight paths. Good job bro.

It's xanzul, the drive-by guy who takes a thread, reads it from an arbitrary place replying to everything or nearly everything until he reaches the end. His attention scope is the post he is currently replying to. The replies are single paragraphs, frequently single sentences. Sure enough, they end up as 99% rubbish, but that's his hobby.

It's like an NPC for these forums.

[Deleted]

I've no idea who is in the majority or minority, all we know is Blizzard liked the results of no-flight in Draenor enough that they almost removed it altogether and felt happy using the Pathfinder system in Legion. Personally I find that accommodates my preference very well. If you feel the same I guess everyone is a winner.

Just because u would like to see it that way there is no reason to have all the informations messed up.
They wanted to ditch flight from the game (after several delays aka "at a later date") first, then they had to reverse the decision based on what ever reason and came up with the pathfinder stuff and THEN they said they have been happy how pathfinder worked out in WoD when they announced how flight will be handled in Legion. That is what wee know. Just don't get the correct order all messed up, it is important for the whole picture.

I am not to convinced about the pathfinder right now. On the other hand, i decided to not Legion buy or resub to WoW until now based on various feedback from many different sources. So i might not know first hand (well i have played a little at a friends, since there are still a few left that actually play) But based on informations pathfinder is still miles away from being "perfect". So i guess we don't agree.

[WowIsDead64]

Just because u would like to see it that way there is no reason to have all the informations messed up.
They wanted to ditch flight from the game (after several delays aka "at a later date") first, then they had to reverse the decision based on what ever reason and came up with the pathfinder stuff and THEN they said they have been happy how pathfinder worked out in WoD when they announced how flight will be handled in Legion. That is what wee know. Just don't get the correct order all messed up, it is important for the whole picture.

I have always been telling you, that all this story with Blizzard, trying to completely remove flying from game - is just pure bluff. They simply sticked to their initial plan - "flying should be meaningful hard to earn reward, as it was back in TBC", as GC said long time ago. All other crap happened cuz: 1) Blizzard needed to shift players' attention from completely void patch 6.1. 2) Blizzard needed to justify content drought between 6.1 and 6.2, cuz 6.2 was ready at release and should have been 6.1, but Blizzard turned it into last patch of xpack instead. 3) Blizzard needed to justify switching to pathfinder model, so they tried to convince us, that pathfinder - was actually huge concession from their side and that we should have been happy about this change.

[WowIsDead64]

Today Tanaan activity is much higher due to Sunday. If I would record videos, today I would record video, that would clearly show, why flying is needed in Wow - flying around location with all mobs dead is tolerable, doing the same thing on ground mount - not.

P.S.

[Bun-Bun]

So I have been unable to find a concrete answer on this...

Is pathfinder complete in 7.2 or is it only to unlock flight in the new zone?

[Dhrizzle]

So I have been unable to find a concrete answer on this...

Is pathfinder complete in 7.2 or is it only to unlock flight in the new zone?

We're not getting a new zone in 7.2, we're getting new content in the old zones which will be part of the Pathfinder part-2.

I wouldn't like to wager whether you'll be able to work towards finishing the achievement as soon as the patch is live, have to wait for time gates (such as quest-based rep grinds) or even wait for a mini-patch to switch on flying.