A Simple Argument for the Tinker Class

[Thimagryn]

There's no logic there! No common sense! Why would anyone not want to invent something if they had the chance to!? Seriously, this "tinkers invent, engineers follow schematics" is really a nonsensical argument! Nobody chooses a career path with the intention of being just your average middle-of-the-pack (or lower) representative of your career. "I'm going to be a medic! Not a good medic, though. Just an average medic. Hm, maybe a slightly bad medic, instead? I guess anywhere average or below is fine, but not above average! No, sir, not at all above average! Never above average!"

Pro gamers don't develop videogames. It doesn't mean they're incapable of developing videogames, but they hone their skills in playing them. Their skills can transfer to mastering other games much more easily than into game design or development. If they began developing videogames, then they're Pro gamers who are also Developers. If they're making videogames, you wouldn't only refer to them as a Pro Gamer. Again, nothing is mutually exclusive, and nothing implies skill or lack-thereof.

Unless you think all Pro gamers are shitty Game Developers.

You're making a terrible, unsustainable argument in an attempt to create a distinction between Tinkers and Engineers, and the simple idea that this is your best argument for them being two separate things, actually only makes the idea that the two are the exact same thing, even stronger.

It's not unsustainable, because it's literally the difference between a Class and Profession. There have been parts of my argument where I specifically say Technology Class and Engineers, so if you think it's terrible and unsustainable, you're the one who can't seem to tell the difference.

[Teriz]

And you need tinkers for that...Why? Mages can just seal them away?

Because some sinister Gnome or Goblin has figured out how to reverse engineer the titan tech, and during the chaos of whatever the previous expansion was, has rebuilt the devastated Kezan and Undermine into a massive landmass filled with technological terrors. Since Goblins and Gnomes know Kezan, Undermine and tech better than anyone else, they are the best equipped to lead the charge to stop the bad guy.

Again, not hard to do.

[Pooti]

Whatever the next new class is, it needs to be ranged. There are way too many melee classes now!

[Syegfryed]

sure lets do a shit design class exclusive for one of the 2 less playable races, cause totally will work

no, rly, i want more tinkers so they can cut more lumber from the elves forests, and of course blow some bombs at then 4Head

[Teriz]

I dunno seems like they would just be milking it there, yes, not hard to do, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't make sense

I don't see how that wouldn't make sense. You have a crisis involving titan technology, Undermine, the former Goblin home island of Kezan. Clearly the experts in this situation would be the Goblins and the Gnomes. Mekkatorque and Gazlowe could either put together a group of Tech warriors from the best or brightest, or they could have supposedly always been there and just never discussed.

[Jtree]

Holy $#!& Teriz is back! I named a DH alt for you. Haven't leveled it yet, but it exists.

There's another Tinker thread on the Lore forum that I've tossed a few ideas in:

Tinkers are orders of magnitude in capability beyond the "engineers" who build basic devices off of purchased schematics. They have created highly unique and complicated war machines, that only their incredible skill, focus, and knowledge can master. They bring intelligence and powerful technology to a place where only magic and brute force had held sway.

For tinker races, Gnomes and Goblins are obvious, but should the new class get expanded beyond DH scope? Dwarves are obvious, as they work closely with gnomes and have plenty of technology of their own. For the Horde, I noticed in the recent Suramar quests that Blood Elves have not only arcane constructs, but Anima golems they took from Throne of Thunder. That could be a cool tie in for them, if the tinker is added as the mech-driving class some of us are envisioning.

There are certainly cases to be made for humans, draenei, forsaken, and orcs, but let's put some limits on it for now.

The most obvious entry could be with those messages you get from Blingtron 5000s. There is a hidden war going on deep below Azeroth, between an unknown enemy and our secret mechanical defenders. A tinker class could tie into this story if it ever turns into an expansion.

[Deleted]

Well if the tinker is something else than just another dps class that does "damage" and "more damage but yellow" then why not.

Would be could to have a real support class for example that doesn't just stupidly do plain hps or dps. I'm tired of all classes offering nothing more than damage of different colors nowadays. If they make a tinker they better add good mechanics and not a generic builder spender and throwing grenades as the pinacle of Blizzard class design creativity...

[IAMANIKOLAS]

Huh? Why couldn't you have a mount like the SkyGolem which allowed you to stay in combat like the catapult in WoD nagrand? I see absolutely no reason engineering couldn't do this except they haven't allowed it to. Y'all are just obsessed with the word Tinker and are trying your best to create some sort of differentiation where none exists.

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Has zero to do with creativity. EVERYTHING you describe could be done with engineering if they wanted to make it so. The reality is that they don't seem to have interest in vehicle combat outside of special events.

Yes everything CAN be done with engingeering, but currently it isn't. That is why we have an opportunity. Also, if Blizzard were to make ONE profession like an entire class, how would you compensate enchanters, jewelcrafters, miners and so on? Also would that not create a MASSIVE balance difficulty, since you could basically mix your class with a profession giving you enough tools for an entire new class?

[Teriz]

But what is the point of a Tinker when we have experienced engineers that do the exact same thing? Mekkatorque can build a battle shredder, the goblins already are known to build equally terrifying things as seen in SoO...Just feels silly to include such a class

Again, there's a difference between the profession engineers and the super-level engineers like Mekkatorque and Blackfuse. One such difference is that the super engineers are all Goblins or Gnomes whereas regular engineers can be of any race. So if we're dealing with a high level technology based threat, you would need the super engineer, not the regular engineers.

Think Tony Stark versus a standard Engineer at NASA or Boeing. Stark can build the Iron Man armor purely from his memory. Standard Engineers can make toy versions of the Iron Man armor. Thus when an Alien invasion occurs, do you call Ted from Electrical Engineering or do you call Tony Stark?

[Ielenia]

Pro gamers don't develop videogames. It doesn't mean they're incapable of developing videogames, but they hone their skills in playing them. Their skills can transfer to mastering other games much more easily than into game design or development. If they began developing videogames, then they're Pro gamers who are also Developers. If they're making videogames, you wouldn't only refer to them as a Pro Gamer. Again, nothing is mutually exclusive, and nothing implies skill or lack-thereof.

Unless you think all Pro gamers are shitty Game Developers.

Do pro gamers, instead of buying new video games or video game peripherals, actually make or upgrade them, themselves? :/

Seriously, though. We're not talking about the real world, where technology is ever-present in every facet of our lives. In Azeroth, if you take a common, average person to a scientific lab, they'd have no idea what any of the stuff there does, at all! Every sign, every evidence we see in Azeroth is that's technology is rare, expensive, and not available to the common public, which, by the way, is where our characters hail from.

It's not unsustainable, because it's literally the difference between a Class and Profession. There have been parts of my argument where I specifically say Technology Class and Engineers, so if you think it's terrible and unsustainable, you're the one who can't seem to tell the difference.

Yeah, and those parts were: "one is a normal person, the other is mentally handicapped, unable to come up with original creations" because you haven't bothered to properly explain why would one group simply decide not to prosper in their own field of work. At best, that is one insulting argument.

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Again, there's a difference between the profession engineers and the super-level engineers like Mekkatorque and Blackfuse. One such difference is that the super engineers are all Goblins or Gnomes whereas regular engineers can be of any race. So if we're dealing with a high level technology based threat, you would need the super engineer, not the regular engineers.

Actually, not really. We didn't need one for Thermaplugg, we didn't need one for Blackfuse, we didn't need one for the Iron Horde, and we didn't need one for Ulduar. So I doubt another crisis created by a "super engineer" would require anything other than our current heroes.

[Teriz]

Actually, not really. We didn't need one for Thermaplugg, we didn't need one for Blackfuse, we didn't need one for the Iron Horde, and we didn't need one for Ulduar. So I doubt another crisis created by a "super engineer" would require anything other than our current heroes.

We didn't need hordes of Demon Hunters for the previous Legion invasions. We really didn't need Monks to stop Garrosh Hellscream. We didn't need Death Knights to stop the Lich King the first time around. Yet somehow all of those classes were necessary when the themed expansion popped up.

Crazy how lore works that way....

[Flarelaine]

Even otherwise, it could be implied that Engineering knowledge is so intrinsic to Tinkers that they wouldn't need to actively engage in Engineering as a profession, as that usage knowledge (which doesn't necessarily require crafting knowledge) is part of the class itself. Also, it could even completly be a class that ties in with the Engineering profession in some way, even if that meant always having 1 profession slot locked to Engineering - I'd be fine with that.

They already exist in the game lore too, and even the mechasuits have gotten recent spotlight:

Now, a mechwarrior is something I can roll with. In fact, the mechasuit would also be the perfect explanation for limiting the class to gnomes and goblins.

Of course, that would probably make them a plate class.

[Teriz]

Seriously, though. We're not talking about the real world, where technology is ever-present in every facet of our lives. In Azeroth, if you take a common, average person to a scientific lab, they'd have no idea what any of the stuff there does, at all! Every sign, every evidence we see in Azeroth is that's technology is rare, expensive, and not available to the common public, which, by the way, is where our characters hail from.

That argument doesn't apply to Goblins and Gnomes. Both races are born and raised around a lot of technology.

Your common Gnome in Tinkertown, and your common Goblin in Kezan/Azshara are surrounded by technology constantly and it permeates every aspect of their lives.

[Ielenia]

We didn't need hordes of Demon Hunters for the previous Legion invasions. We really didn't need Monks to stop Garrosh Hellscream. We didn't need Death Knights to stop the Lich King the first time around. Yet somehow all of those classes were necessary when the themed expansion popped up.

Crazy how lore works that way....

"Necessary"? I really don't think so. I mean, I don't see how the player DK helped in any pivotal way to defeat the Lich King... or how the player Monk was pivotal to defeating Garrosh... I mean, the DKs and Monks could have just been a faction, and not a player class, and things would have unraveled the same, wouldn't they?

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That argument doesn't apply to Goblins and Gnomes. Both races are born and raised around a lot of technology.

Your common Gnome in Tinkertown, and your common Goblin in Kezan/Azshara are surrounded by technology constantly and it permeates every aspect of their lives.

That much I agree on.

[Teriz]

"Necessary"? I really don't think so. I mean, I don't see how the player DK helped in any pivotal way to defeat the Lich King... or how the player Monk was pivotal to defeating Garrosh...

Which is my point. No class inclusion is really necessary or pivotal for any expansion's lore, it's really just there for the player. I mean if you look at any WoW cut scene you never see any character classes, you just see the faction leaders and a bunch of foot soldiers. So pretending that an army of Tinker players needs to be explained via lore for the class to be implemented is ridiculous. No other class inclusion required that.

[Rhamses]

A simple argument against the tinker class: there's no reason to add them, and there never will be unless they make Goblins vs Gnomes a WoW expansion.

DKs - Added in the Lich King expansion
Monks - Added in the Pandaren expansion
DHs - Added in the Legion expansion

See a trend here? We're not going to get a random new class that has no thematic similarities with the expansion itself. Every class has had massive tie-ins with their contemporary expansion, how could they possibly do the same for "tinkers"?

They would have to make an expansion revolving around Gnomes and Goblins.

What's wrong with that? I think sections of the fan base would enjoy it after WoD and Legion.

[Thimagryn]

Do pro gamers, instead of buying new video games or video game peripherals, actually make or upgrade them, themselves? :/

Seriously, though. We're not talking about the real world, where technology is ever-present in every facet of our lives. In Azeroth, if you take a common, average person to a scientific lab, they'd have no idea what any of the stuff there does, at all! Every sign, every evidence we see in Azeroth is that's technology is rare, expensive, and not available to the common public, which, by the way, is where our characters hail from.

Technology is rare, yet everyone has common access to it. Anyone can buy a Goblin Glider and use it, it's not something mutually exclusive to Engineers. This is a game mechanic that is also reflective of the core identity of professions - Accessability. Anything a Tech class would make and use would be exclusive to themselves, which no one else can use. That is because they are not a profession, they are a class. Just like a Hunter's arrows can't be given or traded to anyone else.

Rarity and expense of tech is meaningless. Anyone can be an Engineer, so that already refutes the idea of Technology needing to be common place in order for that to exist. And no, we don't see expense being applied to Technology at all, especially when you consider the poor-as-shit Orcs on Draenor were able to build an entire army of war machines. Wealth has nothing to do with races understanding how to use technology. Every bit of Goblin Technology we see in the game is made out of scrap parts!

I can understand that you personally don't agree with Engineer overlap, or the idea that a Tech Class uses stuff that's expensive; but really that doesn't mean a Tech Class can't exist. Understandably it may be an important issue to you, it's not a compelling reason to refute them. Demon Hunters exist despite everything negative the anti-DH group has pointed out, from theme overlap, to being useless after the Legion is defeated, to 'Warlocks have Metamorphosis' which became meaningless after Demonology was changed. These were all important issues to the anti-DH players, whether it's because they were worried Warlocks will have their theme/gameplay diminished or that the Demon Hunter wouldn't be represented properly without having to 'gut the game'. Those concerns are all important, but they aren't compelling reasons against the class itself.

If the worst thing about Tinkers is that they're 'too expensive' or 'too similar to the Engineering Profession', then that's the least of its worries. There are far more tangible issues that could be discussed, like if they would be popular/well received, if they would be playable by many races, and if they would be added as a regular or Hero class. We've already established long ago that theme and identity overlap doesn't matter, especially when being an Engineer doesn't stop you from being anything else.

[Rhamses]

That argument doesn't apply to Goblins and Gnomes. Both races are born and raised around a lot of technology.

Your common Gnome in Tinkertown, and your common Goblin in Kezan/Azshara are surrounded by technology constantly and it permeates every aspect of their lives.

Good points, and really reinforces the idea of Tinkers being restricted to Gnomes and Goblins. It would make sense that a technological-advanced race would have a unique class of technology-based adventurers/Heroes.

[Thimagryn]

Which is my point. No class inclusion is really necessary or pivotal for any expansion's lore, it's really just there for the player. I mean if you look at any WoW cut scene you never see any character classes, you just see the faction leaders and a bunch of foot soldiers. So pretending that an army of Tinker players needs to be explained via lore for the class to be implemented is ridiculous. No other class inclusion required that.

Totally agree with this. We didn't need Monks at all to fight Garrosh's Iron Horde, the Thunder King or the Sha. We just got them.

[Teriz]

I can understand that you personally don't agree with Engineer overlap, or the idea that a Tech Class uses stuff that's expensive; but really that doesn't mean a Tech Class can't exist. Understandably it may be an important issue to you, it's not a compelling reason to refute them. Demon Hunters exist despite everything negative the anti-DH group has pointed out, from theme overlap, to being useless after the Legion is defeated, to 'Warlocks have Metamorphosis' which became meaningless after Demonology was changed. These were all important issues to the anti-DH players, whether it's because they were worried Warlocks will have their theme/gameplay diminished or that the Demon Hunter wouldn't be represented properly without having to 'gut the game'. Those concerns are all important, but they aren't compelling reasons against the class itself.

If the worst thing about Tinkers is that they're 'too expensive' or 'too similar to the Engineering Profession', then that's the least of its worries. There are far more tangible issues that could be discussed, like if they would be popular/well received, if they would be playable by many races, and if they would be added as a regular or Hero class. We've already established long ago that theme and identity overlap doesn't matter, especially when being an Engineer doesn't stop you from being anything else.

That's really what it all comes down to. Like I said, the ironic thing about the DH inclusion is that it made all the arguments against a Tinker class moot and pointless. Worried about overlap with a profession? Blizzard was willing to gut an entire class to put Demon Hunters into the game. Worried about a class only having two available races in modern WoW? No problem, we'll make a class that's Elves only. Not enough design space for 3 specs? We'll just make a class with 2 specs. Lore inconsistencies with past expansions and current classes? LoL!!

Demon Hunters are the poster child of thematic and design overlap, as well as massive lore problems and gaps, and yet they're in the game anyway. Demon Hunters prove that Blizzard will ignore just about everything if they want a class in the game.

So the only real argument left is if Tinkers offer anything really new gameplay wise to the game? I think after the parasitic nature of the Demon Hunter class on Warlocks and other agility-based melee classes, the Tinker would be a breath of fresh air gameplay wise.