Legion is a grind because...

[kary]

Legion isn't grindy, it's a slot machine.

In vanilla/TBC if I grinded until my rep bar was full, I had a 100% chance of obtaining my reward.
In vanilla, if I grinded until I was HWL, I had a 100% chance of obtaining my gear(I got warlord).

In TBC, if I grinded BGs/arenas for honor/arena points, I had a 100% chance of obtaining the items for the currency.
In TBC, if I grinded heroics for badges, I had a 100% chance of obtaining my items I was working towards from the currency vendor.

In legion, if I run 50,000 M+ dungeons, I have a CHANCE of getting a legendary I want, I have a CHANCE of getting an item I want that's wf+TF.

This is the difference. Vanilla/TBC were grindy, and rewarding. Legion is grindy, and unrewarding. This is what people need to understand, stop saying "LOL VANILLA/TBC WERE GRINDY TOO! ALL MMOS ARE GRINDY!" and realize that Legion is a grind with no reward at the end, unlike other grindy versions of WOW.

Legion is dog shit mixed with cow dung smeared on a pigs ass crack.

You could also be like me and play on an alt for 1 day / played and get your bis legendary sooooo
And no, it's not slot machine. Your rewards have a guaranteed base ilvl. Only becomes slot machine when you wanna do low level shit and pray for high level rewards.

[Hendawgg]

Legion isn't grindy, it's a slot machine.

In vanilla/TBC if I grinded until my rep bar was full, I had a 100% chance of obtaining my reward.
In vanilla, if I grinded until I was HWL, I had a 100% chance of obtaining my gear(I got warlord).

In TBC, if I grinded BGs/arenas for honor/arena points, I had a 100% chance of obtaining the items for the currency.
In TBC, if I grinded heroics for badges, I had a 100% chance of obtaining my items I was working towards from the currency vendor.

In legion, if I run 50,000 M+ dungeons, I have a CHANCE of getting a legendary I want, I have a CHANCE of getting an item I want that's wf+TF.

This is the difference. Vanilla/TBC were grindy, and rewarding. Legion is grindy, and unrewarding. This is what people need to understand, stop saying "LOL VANILLA/TBC WERE GRINDY TOO! ALL MMOS ARE GRINDY!" and realize that Legion is a grind with no reward at the end, unlike other grindy versions of WOW.

Legion is dog shit mixed with cow dung smeared on a pigs ass crack.

No.

What people need to understand is that the legendary system is not intended to be grinded. You're not suppose to grind to receive legendaries. It's not intended to reward you for grinding.

You can grind all you want. But you're trying to defy the intent of the system. It's like grinding for a mount with a .01% drop rate and then crying that you're not being rewarded.

It's moronic. You quicker players realize that your grind is pointless and not intended, the quicker you guys can stop crying about it.

Again:

YOU

ARE

NOT

SUPPOSE

TO

GRIND

LEGENDARIES.

Process this information it. Internalize it. Understand it. And move on with your life.

[Warthix]

Well yeah MMOs are grindy but Legion is the grindiest WoW have ever been.

And how its so unfriendly to alts and off specs, thats why I quit. I usually loved to play several classes but as how much you fall behind and can never really catch up with "main specs or people" nah thanks.

lmao the most grindy.....go play vanilla

[kary]

The thing is, we don't do split raiding. Nor do we play 24/7 no-life the game etc.

How come? Well, because it wasn't needed... until now. There were grinds, and we would push for maybe 2 weeks after tier release, and after that just farm it 2-3 days/week. Actually, I used to maintain a Mythic geared alt in WoD because I could raid with it in a lazy, relaxed, world 1000 guild after progression was over and my main guild went quiet till the next tier.

Now suddenly people cannot farm what it's integral to their spec. These are people that used to do speedruns for fun in HFC with 745 gear and battle each other on logs. Now some can, and some cannot anymore without any good reason... just they're out of luck.

This has a huge impact on people. Things that were fun and functional for them were possible just a few months ago.

Now it's all gone.

So you need to understand that BiS was possible through farming the raid. It was good. Now it's no longer possible and BiS legendaries can be incredibly good, the equivalent of 15-20 ilvls or more.

Yeah but legendaries aren't integral to your spec lol.
Just because it exists doesn't mean that you have to have it or your class is unplayable.

[Hendawgg]

The thing is, we don't do split raiding. Nor do we play 24/7 no-life the game etc.

How come? Well, because it wasn't needed... until now. There were grinds, and we would push for maybe 2 weeks after tier release, and after that just farm it 2-3 days/week. Actually, I used to maintain a Mythic geared alt in WoD because I could raid with it in a lazy, relaxed, world 1000 guild after progression was over and my main guild went quiet till the next tier.

Now suddenly people cannot farm what it's integral to their spec. These are people that used to do speedruns for fun in HFC with 745 gear and battle each other on logs. Now some can, and some cannot anymore without any good reason... just they're out of luck.

This has a huge impact on people. Things that were fun and functional for them were possible just a few months ago.

Now it's all gone.

It's not integral to killing content. It's integral to their parse (WCL says otherwise, but for the sake of your argument lets go with that). Big difference.

And even then...i've seen guys in my guild pull some high parses, 95+ Percentile with legendaries that are far from BIS. The difference in a top parse and a good parse is heavily influenced by RNG and and fight mechanics, much moreso than a legendary. Take Nythendra for example. Getting MC'd once or twice in that fight will have a FAAAAR greater impact on your dps than any TWO BIS legendaries ever will. I'd expect a top 50 raid leader to know that....

Im not trying to rip on your raiders, but they're putting this pressure on themselves. They're burning themselves out chasing warcraftlogs glory.

[ComputerNerd]

Exactly... now I admittedly wasn't around for MoP or WoD, so I can't speak to those, but aside from them, this is the least grindy and most off-spec friendly I have ever seen wow.

Even alts are better off now than ever before (Again, with possible exceptions of MoP and WoD) and they are about to be even more-so with 7.1.5 and buying artifact knowledge.

And actually artifact knowledge in its current form is quicker with a catchup before the 7.1.5 changes, more so afterwards.
I don't get this silly alt-unfriendly argument.
It is something that passively is quicker for alts if you played one character more.
If you have one character with more, others will have a shorter duration until it catches up.

It is grindy IF you throw yourself at everything you can.
It is as grindy as you make it.
If you burn out on world quests, then stop doing them simply because they are there.

[Kuruption]

I don't think it's much of a grind at all. Sure, there's a lot of things I "can" do like get AP, or Order Recources, or Mythic+, or raid, but that means I have stuff to do when I log on and I just do them at my own pace.

I'm sure other people feel like they have to get it all done right away, so it sounds pretty awful for them.

[Hendawgg]

Yeah but legendaries aren't integral to your spec lol.
Just because it exists doesn't mean that you have to have it or your class is unplayable.

The crux of their argument, over and over again, is that they have to have BIS legendaries to be competitive. Yet WCL is littered with logs from players that don't have BIS legendaries.

[Raone]

No.

What people need to understand is that the legendary system is not intended to be grinded. You're not suppose to grind to receive legendaries. It's not intended to reward you for grinding.

You can grind all you want. But you're trying to defy the intent of the system. It's like grinding for a mount with a .01% drop rate and then crying that you're not being rewarded.

It's moronic. You quicker players realize that your grind is pointless and not intended, the quicker you guys can stop crying about it.

Again:

YOU

ARE

NOT

SUPPOSE

TO

GRIND

LEGENDARIES.

Process this information it. Internalize it. Understand it. And move on with your life.

Um, you do realize that it has bad luck protection right? So you 0.1% mount drop example is false because with a mount its always 0.1% regardless of how many times you kill the boss, but with Legendaries the next time will be 0.15~% and then the next time 0.2~% and so on till you eventually get one then back to 0.1%.

You CAN grind legendaries because everytime you DON'T get one you have a higher chance of getting one the next time. The reason they removed the 4 Legendary softcap is because high end players were GRINDING to 4 legendaires quickly then hitting the softcap brickwall.

Also what is this "your not suppose to" thing? Where is this rule? You can grind them if you really want to.

[Shampro]

Courage is Blizzard and the playerbase is Muriel.

[Hendawgg]

Um, you do realize that it has bad luck protection right? So you 0.1% mount drop example is false because with a mount its always 0.1% regardless of how many times you kill the boss, but with Legendaries the next time will be 0.15~% and then the next time 0.2~% and so on till you eventually get one then back to 0.1%.

You CAN grind legendaries because everytime you DON'T get one you have a higher chance of getting one the next time. The reason they removed the 4 Legendary softcap is because high end players were GRINDING to 4 legendaires quickly then hitting the softcap brickwall.

Also what is this "your not suppose to" thing? Where is this rule? You can grind them if you really want to.

Im well aware of the bad luck protection, obviously. But it's still RNG. People are acting as if a certain amount of effort is SUPPOSE to equal a certain reward. Fact is, you can grind all you want, eventually your bad luck protection ramps up enough and you get a legendary that has a mostly useless ability.

Sure you can do that. OR you can just play the game. Stop forcing it and it will come eventually. Just stop crying about it. You are in fact trying to force the system into giving you a legendary by forcing the ramp up of your bad luck protection. And even then, the odds are against you that you'll get a BIS.

It's like swimming up stream against ferocious white water and then complaining that your arms are getting tired.

[ls-]

Courage is Blizzard and the playerbase is Muriel.

-- video

My man, that's perfect

[kary]

Im well aware of the bad luck protection, obviously. But it's still RNG. People are acting as if a certain amount of effort is SUPPOSE to equal a certain reward. Fact is, you can grind all you want, eventually your bad luck protection ramps up enough and you get a legendary that has a mostly useless ability.

Sure you can do that. OR you can just play the game. Stop forcing it and it will come eventually. Just stop crying about it. You are in fact trying to force the system into giving you a legendary by forcing the ramp up of your bad luck protection. And even then, the odds are against you that you'll get a BIS.

It's like swimming up stream against ferocious white water and then complaining that your arms are getting tired.

And then people like me will come around, log for an hour twice a week and get bis leggos for 2 chars.

What if prydaz and sephuz are punishment items for grinding?

[kary]

You're aware we used to be able to get all BiS by farming the raid, minimal RNG involved, just a few months ago?

All that we want is that system to return, so people can farm their gear, be happy. Is so simple.

Oh yeah. And it was a fitting reward for Mythic raiders, effort resulted in BiS - as it should.

Also your claim that "logs are peppered with people not having BiS" is deceptive. Very, very few get to the top without at least one BiS legendary, and any reader can easily see it by just visiting the damn site. People with BiS legendaries play as if they are using cheats, at similar skill, you can rarely compete with them.

This used to be a much more level field. I hope the game will be brought back to that stage.

Lol you sound like you want to go back to dragon soul esque no rng gearing. Which was ultimately boring and after people got their bis they'd just quit. Then they'd complain that they got their bis and have no reason to play any more.

[ShiyoKozuki]

No.

What people need to understand is that the legendary system is not intended to be grinded. You're not suppose to grind to receive legendaries. It's not intended to reward you for grinding.


Process this information it. Internalize it. Understand it. And move on with your life.

So I'm not supposed to grind legendaries.
I'm not supposed to grind for WF/TF.

What am I supposed to do? Play for no reward? Then be happy if I >>MIGHT<< get a reward?

That's literally exactly what I said. You're just saying what I said, and agreeing, by saying different things. You're mimicing what I'm saying

The game isn't rewarding, it's a lotto slot machine.

Grinding for a chance at a reward gets boring quick, very quick.

Legion is garbage.

[Deleted]

Well yeah MMOs are grindy but Legion is the grindiest WoW have ever been.

No its not. go back and play some vanilla then you learn what a GRIND really is.
people got what they wanted - grinds like vanilla (okay they are waaay better these days) and still complain

[kary]

HFC was fine with WF and a good legendary people could obtain by farming the raid. Yeah, it was made too available with Valor upgrades, but let's be honest, all these very casual players continually bugged Blizz with anti "raid or die" propaganda, and if this is what it takes so we can raid, so be it, they can have their similar legendary, even though I'd make them raid-exclusive like in Cata for example.

Thing is, I didn't lose people to getting their BiS. But I do lose people now because they can't get it. I'l be honest, I have no idea where this "people get BiS and quit" comes. In my experience raiders getting BiS are motivated to continue to raid just so they can go big D on damage meters and logs.

But the thing is, we were able to farm it, now we can't and at least for some players, it has a very negative impact. Nobody wants to be 40K DPS below somebody that had worse logs just cause that guy had luck.

Unfairness is bound to cause issues. This is just the start of these issues, I can guarantee you that, I guess we will have to go through a big dip in subs until we will see some changes to bring WoW more in line with what it used to be.

I, on the other hand am used to people getting bis and either playing an alt or sitting out for someone else.
But eh, people complain, things change. People complain more, things change again. Think of things as a constant trial.

Lol and logs are 100% luck. Crit rolls, procs, trinket uptime, etc. You can't be seriously suggesting that RNG isn't present in top parses, right?

[iky43210]

No its not. go back and play some vanilla then you learn what a GRIND really is.
people got what they wanted - grinds like vanilla (okay they are waaay better these days) and still complain

Vanilla wow was not grindy at all if you're just loot driven.

Rep rewards shit gear, everything else also rewards shit gear, the only thing that actually gives good gear are weekly lockout raids.

The resist cloak grind and most of the crafting grinds are also based on weekly raid material drops.

The only thing grindy about vanilla was the high warlord grind, or unless you like to grind shitty rep for funsies.

Legion is many magnitude more grindy than vanilla ever was for hardcore raiders. Nothing even come close to multiple alt raids and constant mythic spam farm for ap/legendaries.

[Brewhan]

limit yourself to 1 main, 1 alt. Thats it. Delete all your other characters. Then you wont feel such a huge burnout.

I've got 4 level 110s and im kind of overwhelmed now when 3 of them are 865+, one is 840+ upcoming and I think of doing kara on 3-4 chars each week/ raids/M+../WQs.. welp thats 6hrs a day alone..

now I need to follow my own advice of limiting your characters...

[Caliph]

Well everyone wanted more challenge.
Everyone wanted more content
Everyone wanted the glory days of vanilla, and tbc
Everyone wanted more dungeons
Everyone wanted to raid
Nobody wanted to raid
Everyone wanted to do pvp
nobody wanted to do pvp
Everyone liked garrisons' free loot
Nobody liked garrisons' free loot
Everyone wanted class differentiation
Nobody likes class fantasy
Everyone wanted professions again
Nobody likes the new profession system
Everyone wanted emerald dream and azshara
nobody likes EN
Blizzard gave us everything but what we liked and wanted by going back to the grindy vanilla roots, heroes of TBC, nemesis of TBC, and made everything like yesteryear but with all of the accouterments of today. The only way to do those things was to cut classes in half, make a grind out of famous weapons, make pvp everywhere in the world, give more dailies, cut back on followers but reward practically the same amount of gold and ensure everybody can have legendaries. all if you agree wholeheartedly with the grind.