A Simple Argument for the Tinker Class

[ComputerNerd]

Tinkers made more sense than demon hunters.

They had to add a class with wings though

I disagree.
Demon Hunters play a big role in the story of a huge threat, the Burning Legion.
One that has been built up as a threat through the previous expansion.
What major role in any storyline have tinkers actually had.
Gnomeregan is all that springs to mind for me, and that as a threat has been tiny in comparison.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I can't see why engineering has to be gutted to allow for tinkers.
If we accept that our characters can become engineers, they could in theory build themselves mechsuits or ranged weapons or mini robots, or whatever it happens to be that tinkers might use. These devices are all canon, but we're happy to accept that our warriors or magi could build and use such things if they wanted to, but they don't. They choose to fight in a different way, with axes or spells.
There's nothing really preventing a warlock from using arcane or shamanic magic in theory. Most warlocks started off that way, but now choose a different fighting style. Why? Why not use evocation as a demonology warlock? Because it's a game and that's how the restrictions work. It's no different for the proffesion. Why doesn't my engineer build a mechsuit and fight in it? Because in combat he prefers stabbing people in the back to firing a laser gun or letting turrets have all the fun, but he still likes making gliders because they're useful.

[Ielenia]

I can't see why engineering has to be gutted to allow for tinkers.
If we accept that our characters can become engineers, they could in theory build themselves mechsuits or ranged weapons or mini robots, or whatever it happens to be that tinkers might use. These devices are all canon, but we're happy to accept that our warriors or magi could build and use such things if they wanted to, but they don't. They choose to fight in a different way, with axes or spells.

Actually, as far as I know, you have to have an innate magical acuity to really be able to cast arcane spells, or at the very least cast them efficiently enough, or powerful enough. I do believe one of the books go through that.

There's nothing really preventing a warlock from using arcane or shamanic magic in theory.

Actually... there are. At least for shamanistic magic. I reckon a warlock still could throw arcane spells if he wanted, but the question is: why would he, since fel is a much more powerful magic force, that requires a price warlocks are already willing to pay? As for Shamanistic magic... I do believe (I'm working this from memory) you need to make some sort of contract with representatives of the elemental planes, and act as a mediator among them, and they, in turn, allow access to the magic respective to their domains. Consider that a given warlock was, in the past, a shaman, I doubt the elements would allow him to wield their magic.

Most warlocks started off that way, but now choose a different fighting style. Why?

Power.

Why not use evocation as a demonology warlock?

Because Life Tap is a better alternative?

[De Lupe]

What is a Tinker class? Forgive my ignorance but what would a Tinker class offer new? Shoots with rifles? But that is what hunters do. Run around with a mech, that is a variation to a Warlock and Hunter. Lay traps? Again a Hunter and I doubt a class focus on putting traps and HOPING something would step on it would make it rather difficulty to play.

If every single class is required to bring some new gameplay style, may I ask what the Demon Hunter brought? From my own experience playing the class and from what I've seen of others playing it, everything the DH has it copied or flat out stole from another class. At least DKs and Monks were different from the other classes at their respective releases. DH didn't even try. It flaunts the things it took as core features.

Agile, leather-wearing tank? Monk and Druid.
Dual-wielding melee leather DPS? Monk and Rogue.
High mobility melee class? Monk, Rogue, and Warrior.
Melee fighter who weaves spells in with attacks? Paladins and Death Knights.
Even their theme of "demonic influence" was taken from Warlocks.

DH are now, and have always been long before they were added to the game, a poor mishmash of other classes who did things right. And the only reason people allow it to pass as acceptable is because of "they wanna be like Illidan."

[bloodmoth13]

What is a Tinker class? Forgive my ignorance but what would a Tinker class offer new? Shoots with rifles? But that is what hunters do. Run around with a mech, that is a variation to a Warlock and Hunter. Lay traps? Again a Hunter and I doubt a class focus on putting traps and HOPING something would step on it would make it rather difficulty to play.

I am aware people has been asking for it. But I am wondering what is so special about the Tinker class that makes people wants it so much.

Alot.
You could be using upgraded bows/guns with tinker attachments for automatic fire, burst shot and clips etc, bombs, lazers, rockets, turrets, flamethrowers, chemical spray, spider mines, drones, mechanical arms etc etc, the sky is the limit with this one, you just need to use your imagination.

Not sure how a mech is related to hunter/warlock, but an upgrade mode where you jump in a mech for bonus damage/abilities could easily be used.

You could easily add an apothecary off spec for healing using stim packs, healing potions/sprays and field medic style stuff to create a tech based healing spec that has nothing to do with 'nature' or 'the light' which would suit goblins/gnomes/undead perfectly.

Seriously though, this class writes itself! If you cant imagine what a tinker class can offer then you must really lack imagination

[Thimagryn]

No tech other than the entrance to Deeprun tram.

Draenei Artificers, Ethereals, Mo'arg Engineers, Iron Horde. Technology is present all around the world, and it's not exclusive to the Goblins and Gnomes.

Now I get the feeling you're being confrontational solely out of spite. There are just those two ways to go with the class: either the character gets the equipment from somewhere or someone, or the character builds the equipment himself. There is no third way.

No, your reasoning is:
If you Buy, then you can only keep upgrade your tech through buying more. Impossible!
If you Build, then you're an Engineer!

Here are just a few examples of how you can Buy or Build without conflicting with Engineers

- Character's mentor dies, leaving his technology, workshop and weaponry to you, his apprentice. His dying wish is for you to carry on his legacy and finish what he started - Perfect the Portable Weapons System that he designed for combat and become the Adventurer you always wanted to be. Don't live in his footsteps, carry it on in your own way. Your gear was not built by you, but you augment and improve the systems similar to the way we improve our Artifacts. The PWS generates all the weapons you need, you just haven't unlocked all of its capabilities yet.

- Character was a renowned Inventor. He is falsely disgraced and stripped of his title and belongings. Smuggling away his prized invention, the Portable Weapons System, he starts a new life as an Adventurer, learning the combat skills necessary to take down the ones that disgraced him and reclaim his name in the world. Your gear was built by you, but you don't need any training in Technology, only combat training and how to better apply your inventions against your enemies.

- Character is a poor, young prodigy gifted in Mechanics. He tinkers in the scrapyard, creating makeshift weapons to scare away the local bandits. The Bandits retaliate and attack the town. The blame is placed on you and you are exiled from the town, taking all your creations with you. An old Goblin Merchant you befriended gives you a going away present- a Silver Wrench. Unbeknownst to you, it is actually the calling card of the Tinkers Union, an elite global organization of Inventors who only take in the most creative and inventive individuals. This eccentric organization refuses to teach schematics; they want you to learn to play music by ear rather than reading it on sheets. You built your gear and you train in the ways of the Tinker; though you can still train in basic Engineering to learn to read Schematics.

Like I said, there are an infinite ways how Buy or Build can work. When you provided two examples that don't work, it only means those two examples don't work.

Like you, I'd say they're wrong, but unlike you, I'd explain them that both could still keep the ability. By the way, your mistake here was presenting a scenario were someone was presenting only one way in the presented hypothetical scenario obviously offers two ways.

Then why did you say

So that leaves us with just one option: the character builds their own arsenal.

[Teriz]

That is technically a possible solution, but we still have the "tech class and engineers are the same in lore" problem.

Well not really since the technical geniuses of Azeroth lore are almost always Goblins and Gnomes, whereas Engineers are represented by every race. Mekkatorque, Blackfuse, Thermaplugg, Gazlowe, etc. are all either Goblins or Gnomes, and they are using tech that makes engineering stuff look like something you buy at Toys R Us. So clearly there is a difference within the lore.

Blackfuse and Gelbin were definitely not using blueprints when they were building their stuff, since just about everything they created was revolutionary. I have little doubt that if you put either one of them in a scrap heap or a junk yard, they'd build some high level equipment in a very short amount of time. Is it not fair to say that if you're a warrior using the engineering profession and building a blingtron, you're not a player representation of Gelbin Mekkatorque or Helix Blackfuse?

As per your argument, we don't see Tauren, Orcs, Elves, Humans, Trolls, etc. living in high tech settlements, or walking around in mech suits. Further, only Goblins and Gnomes have been able to reverse engineer Titan technology, a fairly high-level technical feat.

In short, restricting the "Tinker" class to just Goblins and Gnomes solves your little spat with Thimgryn.

Don't try to play coy. You know full well what I meant, since it's explained in the very paragraph you quoted.

I know what you meant, and I'm telling you that Engineering has been significantly gutted by Blizzard. Many who use the profession feel that its nearly unplayable and not worth the time investment.

[De Lupe]

Tauren...walking around in mech suits.

That picture in my head made me smile. TY.

[Teriz]

That picture in my head made me smile. TY.

Well, the lore behind mech suits in WoW is that Goblins and Gnomes build them for protection because they're so small and weak compared to the other races.

Unfortunately that lore really doesn't work for Tauren.

[Spiral Mage]

The "simple argument" for any feature you want added to a game,
is WHY do you actually want it?

What would it bring to the game that you would find enjoyable?
Why is it worth the devs' time to do it?

Don't ever focus on trying to argue for something with a "Why not?" argument.
Focus on the "Why" aspect of it. Why do you want it? Not, why won't you do it?

"Why won't you do it?" doesn't tell the devs' why they should.
"Why I want it," does tell them why it's worth their time to invest in.

Me personally? I don't really want this class?
But reading this thread makes me think .. being able to DPS with a flame-thrower?
I liked the Flame-Thrower in GW2. It'd be cool to have one in WoW. "Melee Ranged"? Haha. That'd be kinda neat.

[De Lupe]

Well, the lore behind mech suits in WoW is that Goblins and Gnomes build them for protection because they're so small and weak compared to the other races.

Unfortunately that lore really doesn't work for Tauren.

Oh, I know. But the image of a Tauren cramming themselves into a Goblin-sized shredder made me laugh. Little tufts of fur at every joint, tail breaking out of the back, their arms/legs replacing the mechs because they broke off from the massive cow forcing it's way into the suit, only their hand visible in the control center... A good laugh.

I think I know what I want draw next.

[Traveler Voltin]

Surprise surprises Ielenia ignored my question that asked pages ago

[Dastreus]

- - - Updated - - -



Actually perform a functional role (DPS/Tank/Support) in a group and raid.

No, no. What does it do? What abilities? Name stuff that the engineer doesn't have.

[Teriz]

No, no. What does it do? What abilities? Name stuff that the engineer doesn't have.

Well that's an unfair question since we don't know what abilities a Tinkerer would have since the class doesn't exist. However, if we use other classes as examples, we can use Tinker abilities from WC3 and HotS for examples of possible Tinkerer abilities;

+The ability to turn into a mechanical, which grants certain benefits/downsides in WoW such as being immune from Fear, Bleeds, and Drains, and the inability to be healed, yet the ability to be repaired. (Robo-Goblin)
+The ability to pilot a mech during combat. (Robo-Goblin)
+The ability to collect scrap parts from expired machines to restore resources or empower yourself. (Break it Down)
+The ability to rapidly upgrade machines to fit a combat situation and enhance their capabilities. (multiple abilities in WC3 and HotS)
+The ability to instantly construct a factory that produces robots that fight for the Tinker. (Pocket Factory)
+The ability to construct and use a rapidly expanding laser that increases damage over time. (Deth Lazor)
+Gravity Weaponry that pulls targets towards the center, damaging them. (Grav-O-Bomb)

[Deleted]

Blizzard will never make an expansion about goblins/gnomes or tinkers for one simple reason: its 2 of the least played races in the games=they are not appealing to the bigger audience. Its simple. Also people want to play warriors,rogues,mages or hunters,all classes they can understand and feel related with. I think we are in a time of gaming where mechs just lost their hype,every1 is focused on medival fantasy (I might be wrong here its just my point of view).

[deviantcultist]

There was very little silly about the Iron Horde, Siegemaster Blackfuse, or Gelbin Mekkatorque in Legion.

My comment was a bit more general. I strictly referred to the playable Horde and by that I think the following:

When the Horde (playable) as a whole is so silly and at the same time having a massive fanbase that considers it badass, I will not be surprised if ANYTHING stupid gets added in the game and people simply applaud.

[Kolvarg]

As per your argument, we don't see Tauren, Orcs, Elves, Humans, Trolls, etc. living in high tech settlements, or walking around in mech suits.

To start with, saying a Tinker Class is unlikely to be added because it's not realistic lore-wise, is putting way too much faith on how much Blizzard cares about "realism". I mean, I as a warrior can endlessly throw weapons from a seemingly endless supply.

The whole argument that "only Gnomes and Goblins are plausible to become Tinkers lore-wise" falls apart when we know that Goblins and Gnomes can be as strong and durable tanks as Tauren or an Orc. Gameplay comes first.

Even then, you still see throughout the game members of every race (players) being able to control and use pieces of high-tech with ease. From vehicles ranging from mechanostriders, demolishers and copters, to bipedal flying machines like the Sky Golem, Shredders, explosive charges, cannons, death stars, so on. All of them seemingly with no instruction of any kind.

It's completly understandable that technology doesn't appear very common in settlements and such, because Tinkers aren't very common yet either. If there were no adventurers using weapons and armor, chances are there wouldn't be so many armor and weapon shops and traders.

And honestly this is all just a great mix-up of the interpretation of the words "Engineer" and "Tinker". Because in the lore those words don't refer to a class or a profession, as class and profession are game terminology. Despite of what "Engineer" and "Tinker" might mean in the lore, Tinker (Class) in the game can basicly just mean essentially an engineer specialized in warfare, while Engineer (Profession) just means someone who is able to build assorted technology that isn't very useful in combat.

Just like in my example above: Warrior, Hunter and Priest all have much broader meanings in the lore, and only refer to a class - fighting style, basiclly - in the game.

If they want to make other races able to beocme tinker, they will - Because by adding Tinker they're not stating "Now there's a strong technology presence in this race". They're just saying there's adventurers from that race that learned to fight that way. Remember, all we needed for most races to be able to become monks, was for a few trainers to spread around the world. And technology and engineers are already much better spread than monks were. All races can already become engineers. Becoming tinkers would only mean they take a step further and use that knowledge as their primary fighting style instead of something else.

[Deleted]

I want a Goblin Alchemist then. I want to use potions to mutate creatures, like how the Hobgoblins were created.

What does it matter that Alchemy is a profession? :P

Literally, these kind of things are dealt with racial passives. Gnomes can tame Mecha pets (and become Survival Hunters using explosives) because they have a relation to engineering, tinkering and inventing. That's why they ride Mecha mounts. Goblins can also use Rockets or Bombs they strap on their armor, because they have a relation to engineering and every Goblin likes carrying his favorite rockets around with him. They have also invented cars for every Goblin to ride, not just Engineers.

I mean, what Tinker specific isn't already covered by racial passives, like the mecha pets and mounts and the hidden rockets? You can even play a Survival Hunter and have Sticky Bombs and Tar Traps (and at some point in beta Sentry Turrets).

Definitely the current Survival abilities don't fit the Survival theme (be one with nature, attack like a savage with bites and sharp weapons and use engineering bombs?!?!), but it is there.

[Kolvarg]

I want a Goblin Alchemist then. I want to use potions to mutate creatures, like how the Hobgoblins were created.

Tinker Class could easily take in aspects from both the Goblin Tinker and Goblin Alchemist from WIII, depending on its specs

Literally, these kind of things are dealt with racial passives. Gnomes can tame Mecha pets (and become Survival Hunters using explosives) because they have a relation to engineering, tinkering and inventing. That's why they ride Mecha mounts. Goblins can also use Rockets or Bombs they strap on their armor, because they have a relation to engineering and every Goblin likes carrying his favorite rockets around with him. They have also invented cars for every Goblin to ride, not just Engineers.

I mean, what Tinker specific isn't already covered by racial passives, like the mecha pets and mounts and the hidden rockets? You can even play a Survival Hunter and have Sticky Bombs and Tar Traps (and at some point in beta Sentry Turrets).

Definitely the current Survival abilities don't fit the Survival theme (be one with nature, attack like a savage with bites and sharp weapons and use engineering bombs?!?!), but it is there.

That's like saying "We don't need Warriors, Mages can already use swords!".
Or "We don't need Demon Hunters, rogues can already use glaives!".

Also, doesn't help your argument very much that you say we don't need Tinkers because we already have Survival, and then procee on saying Survival is not matching its own theme, because then the obvious solution is survival will be changed and be even further apart form Tinker.

Sirvival might have some tinker-like abilities, but technology is not what the spec is about. Remember: Blizzard was fine reformulating Demonology and taking abilities from other classes to make room for Demon Hunter, a class that conflicts greatly with 2 or 3 other classes (Warlocks and Rogues, Monks to some extent).

[Deleted]

That's like saying "We don't need Warriors, Mages can already use swords!".
Or "We don't need Demon Hunters, rogues can already use glaivea!"

I'm not saying we don't need a Tinker class. What harm can happen with another class? It just so happens that I'm not that interested into an engineering class, like others aren't into Demon Hunters. (Warcraft is more of a Sword and Sorcery type of game for me, and Tinkers in the Warcraft universe don't have the Victorian Steampunk theme either, which is a theme I like a lot.)

I'm just saying that most things a Tinker would do are already represented in the form of racial abilities. Rockets and Bombs? Goblins have them. Mech pets and mount? Both gnomes and goblins have them.

I mean, thinking about Demon Hunters, you would imagine an agile melee class, using big glaives, fel magic, turning into a demon and consuming mana from enemies.
Sure rogues wear leather, warriors can weild glaives, warlocks can use fel magic and Blood Elves can consume mana, but a class with all those elements wasn't in the game so there was room for it. There can be 2 fel classes or 2 sword classes, similar to how we can have 2 nature classes, Monks and Druids for example, or DKs and Warriors both weilding swords.

What defines a Tinker that isn't already covered by Gnomes and Racial Passives? Not arguing here, just asking. I just think that there aren't many unique things a Tinker would do nor does he have a unique fighting style to turn them into an entire new class. It just sounds like "ride robots and throw bombs". Doesn't matter if you are a Mage or a Warrior, you can start your Technology studies and learn how to craft a bomb or two. You can't weild the power of death and shadow that easily, though, or consume demonic essences and turn into a demon yourself, most Shadow or Fel magic practitioners get mad or die in the process. Channeling the Light isn't as easy as reading a book, you need steel faith and pure heart.
Now if we talk about using mechanical limbs and stuff and imbuing magic into artificial body parts and weapons, well, that's another story but I don't think that's what a Warcraft Tinker does.

Off-topic: Regarding Survival Hunters, they tried to make an Iron Horde class basically, having talents like "the way of the Mok'Nathal" and Sticky Bombs and Tar, but they also tried to give the old Survival feel back, fighting like an animal without being one (difference with Ferals), and they spiced it up with Gnomes and Mech pets.
Those themes don't blend in well together though imo and I see them either removing the Technology theme altogether and focusing on the animal fighter style with Mongoose Bites and stuff or making Survival an entirely mech spec, so badically turning him into a Tinker (though I doubt it cause it doesn't fit the fantasy and the other specs anyway).