Page 15 of 30 FirstFirst ...
5
13
14
15
16
17
25
... LastLast
  1. #281
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    21,868
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Draenei Artificers, Ethereals, Mo'arg Engineers, Iron Horde. Technology is present all around the world, and it's not exclusive to the Goblins and Gnomes.
    None of those exist in the Dwarven District. :/ And Draenei Artificers? Jewelcrafters.

    No, your reasoning is:
    If you Buy, then you can only keep upgrade your tech through buying more. Impossible!
    If you buy, because you don't know how to build machines, then yes, you can only 'upgrade it' by buying more.

    If you Build, then you're an Engineer!
    If you build machines, you're an engineer. If you use herbs and other plants to create all kinds of concoctions, you're an alchemist. If you smelt metal ores and then hammer them into shapes of armor and weapons, you're a blacksmith.

    Here are just a few examples of how you can Buy or Build without conflicting with Engineers

    - Character's mentor dies, leaving his technology, workshop and weaponry to you, his apprentice... (So he's an engineer.)

    - Character was a renowned Inventor. (So he's an engineer.)

    - Character is a poor, young prodigy gifted in Mechanics. (So he's an engineer.)


    Then why did you say
    Because, while in your scenario you presented us only one 'way out' when the scenario implied more than one, my scenario has two ways to do it, but one of the ways is denied by the lore. Listen, at its core, it's a dichotomy: either the character knows engineering, or he doesn't know engineering.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  2. #282
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,804
    Quote Originally Posted by Ckaelir View Post
    I mean, thinking about Demon Hunters, you would imagine an agile melee class, using big glaives, fel magic, turning into a demon and consuming mana from enemies.
    Minus the big glaives (which several classes could use before DHs emerged), Warlocks covered just about all of that. We also had multiple agile melee classes.

    What defines a Tinker that isn't already covered by Gnomes and Racial Passives? Not arguing here, just asking. I just think that there aren't many unique things a Tinker would do nor does he have a unique fighting style. It just sounds like "ride robots and throw bombs". Let alone make at least 2 specs for them.

    As stated earlier, these are Tinker abilities that are not covered by engineering or the racial passives;

    +The ability to turn into a mechanical, which grants certain benefits/downsides in WoW such as being immune from Fear, Bleeds, and Drains, and the inability to be healed, yet the ability to be repaired. (Robo-Goblin)
    +The ability to pilot a mech during combat. (Robo-Goblin)
    +The ability to collect scrap parts from expired machines to restore resources or empower yourself. (Break it Down)
    +The ability to rapidly upgrade machines to fit a combat situation and enhance their capabilities. (multiple abilities in WC3 and HotS)
    +The ability to instantly construct a factory that produces robots that fight for the Tinker. (Pocket Factory)
    +The ability to construct and use a rapidly expanding laser that increases damage over time. (Deth Lazor)
    +Gravity Weaponry that pulls targets towards the center, damaging them. (Grav-O-Bomb)

    Further, the racial passives and the profession don't allow you to perform a role in a group or raid.

    Off-topic: Regarding Survival Hunters, they tried to make an Iron Horde class basically, having talents like "the way of the Mok'Nathal" and Sticky Bombs and Tar, but they also tried to give the old Survival feel back, fighting like an animal without being one (difference with Ferals), and they spiced it up with Gnomes and Mech pets.
    Those themes don't blend in well together though imo and I see them either removing the Technology theme altogether and focusing on the animal fighter style with Mongoose Bites and stuff or making Survival an entirely mech spec, so badically turning him into a Tinker (though I doubt it cause it doesn't fit the fantasy and the other specs anyway).
    Those are simply talents that were added to give Gnome and Goblin Hunters a little flavor. It doesn't make them a Tinker class, but it does show that Blizzard is perfectly happy taking engineering stuff and placing them in classes.

  3. #283
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    21,868
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well not really since the technical geniuses of Azeroth lore are almost always Goblins and Gnomes, whereas Engineers are represented by every race. Mekkatorque, Blackfuse, Thermaplugg, Gazlowe, etc. are all either Goblins or Gnomes, and they are using tech that makes engineering stuff look like something you buy at Toys R Us. So clearly there is a difference within the lore.
    And yet they're still engineers. Just because those figures of lore may be smarter than the average representative of their profession doesn't mean they're a different profession altogether.

    Blackfuse and Gelbin were definitely not using blueprints when they were building their stuff, since just about everything they created was revolutionary.
    ... Are you going with the dumb "tech class invents, engineers are mentally handicapped and unable to have original thoughts" argument?

    I have little doubt that if you put either one of them in a scrap heap or a junk yard, they'd build some high level equipment in a very short amount of time.
    And I have little doubt that any engineer would be able to do the same. Maybe not in the same short time, since they may not be as smart as those lore figures, but they could indeed build something great.

    Is it not fair to say that if you're a warrior using the engineering profession and building a blingtron, you're not a player representation of Gelbin Mekkatorque or Helix Blackfuse?
    Depends. Are you talking about intellect? Then, yes, it's not fair. But if you're talking about profession? Then, no, it's not unfair. It's completely fair and correct.

    I know what you meant, and I'm telling you that Engineering has been significantly gutted by Blizzard. Many who use the profession feel that its nearly unplayable and not worth the time investment.
    And yet you keep playing coy, for some reason, since what advocate for the profession in that scenario would make all the "gutting" it suffered through its entire lifetime feel more like a simple polishing, by comparison.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    +The ability to turn into a mechanical, which grants certain benefits/downsides in WoW such as being immune from Fear, Bleeds, and Drains, and the inability to be healed, yet the ability to be repaired. (Robo-Goblin) (There is no guarantee a tech class would do that, if implemented)
    +The ability to pilot a mech during combat. (Robo-Goblin) (There is no guarantee a tech class would do that, if implemented)
    +The ability to collect scrap parts from expired machines to restore resources or empower yourself. (Break it Down) (There is no guarantee a tech class would do that, if implemented)
    +The ability to rapidly upgrade machines to fit a combat situation and enhance their capabilities. (multiple abilities in WC3 and HotS) (There is no guarantee a tech class would do that, if implemented)
    +The ability to instantly construct a factory that produces robots that fight for the Tinker. (Pocket Factory) (Engineers do that already)
    +The ability to construct and use a rapidly expanding laser that increases damage over time. (Deth Lazor) (There is no guarantee a tech class would do that, if implemented)
    +Gravity Weaponry that pulls targets towards the center, damaging them. (Grav-O-Bomb) (There is no guarantee a tech class would do that, if implemented)
    You should stop using things not set in stone as if they were indeed set in stone to make your arguments.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  4. #284
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,804
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And yet they're still engineers. Just because those figures of lore may be smarter than the average representative of their profession doesn't mean they're a different profession altogether.
    They're smarter, can produce technology far more advanced than the profession, and are restricted to two races.


    ... Are you going with the dumb "tech class invents, engineers are mentally handicapped and unable to have original thoughts" argument?
    Engineers require schematics to create more advanced products. Tinkers create advanced products and weaponry without schematics. That's simply a fact. A warrior who follows blueprints to create a blingtron is not a representation of a super inventor like Siegecrafter Blackfuse.

    And I have little doubt that any engineer would be able to do the same. Maybe not in the same short time, since they are not as smart as those lore figures, but they would indeed build something great.
    With schematics.


    Depends. Are you talking about intellect? Then, yes, it's not fair. But if you're talking about profession? Then, no, it's not unfair. It's completely fair and correct.
    It's correct that the game shows technology as a formal form of combat on the same level as any magic or martial skill, yet the player cannot participate in that lore even as a Gnome or Goblin?

    And yet you keep playing coy, for some reason, since what advocate for the profession in that scenario would make all the "gutting" it suffered through its entire lifetime feel more like a simple polishing, by comparison.
    I really have no clue what you're talking about here. What I said was that Engineering has been gutted by the game company Blizzard and players of the game are complaining about it.

    Here's an example;

    http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...9034853?page=1

  5. #285
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Minus the big glaives (which several classes could use before DHs emerged), Warlocks covered just about all of that. We also had multiple agile melee classes.




    As stated earlier, these are Tinker abilities that are not covered by engineering or the racial passives;

    +The ability to turn into a mechanical, which grants certain benefits/downsides in WoW such as being immune from Fear, Bleeds, and Drains, and the inability to be healed, yet the ability to be repaired. (Robo-Goblin)
    +The ability to pilot a mech during combat. (Robo-Goblin)
    +The ability to collect scrap parts from expired machines to restore resources or empower yourself. (Break it Down)
    +The ability to rapidly upgrade machines to fit a combat situation and enhance their capabilities. (multiple abilities in WC3 and HotS)
    +The ability to instantly construct a factory that produces robots that fight for the Tinker. (Pocket Factory)
    +The ability to construct and use a rapidly expanding laser that increases damage over time. (Deth Lazor)
    +Gravity Weaponry that pulls targets towards the center, damaging them. (Grav-O-Bomb)

    Further, the racial passives and the profession don't allow you to perform a role in a group or raid.
    Well supposedly only Demon Hunters can weild Glaives with as much precision and still be able to retain their agility, regardless of the weapon size. But anyway, Demon Hunters are melee Warlocks, more or less, like how Death Knights are melee frost mages or melee shadow priests/warlocks or how an Enha Shaman is a melee Elemental.

    And I get your point regarding engineering, Mistweaver Monks use herbs, teas and and ancient remedies, but they aren't Herbalists.

    The thing is, Tinkers, as you describe them and as they are requested, sound like having a limited concept. Mistweavers/Herbalists are part of a class, not the entire class. Even Death Knights and Demon Hunters have new concepts introduced to make them a class (like the vampiric Blood DKs or the far stretched yet wonderful soul eating Vengeance DHs turning into a monstrosity we haven't seen before). They even introduced new races to complete the themes, Pandaren and Aldrachi.

    Tinkers as you describe them are fine for a spec but it doesn't sound enough for an entire class, they need more things to complete them.

    I'm not arguing that they shouldn't exist, just discussing and saying my opinion on why they feel limited for a class or what more they could have to make them a class.
    Last edited by mmoc985e663195; 2016-12-03 at 02:40 PM.

  6. #286
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,804
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You should stop using things not set in stone as if they were indeed set in stone to make your arguments.
    Where did I say it was set in stone? I was merely using Tinker-based abilities from sources that Blizzard has pulled WoW class abilities from in the past.

    More intellectual dishonesty on your part.

    1. A dispenser isn't a factory.

    2.That trinket ability has a 30 minute cooldown and dispensing the bomb is player activated. The Pocket factory ability automatically releases the robot every few seconds.

    3.The Trinket ability does not scale with player level. An actual ability would.

    4. The Goblin Bomb dispenser releases a bomb. Pocket Factory releases a robot with a weapon.

    5. The pocket factory produces a building that can be used as an obstruction between the character and their attacker.

    BTW: Automatically producing a miniature building is something else a tinker can do that the engineer profession can't do.

  7. #287
    I hate "technology" oriented things in a fantasy game.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Minus the big glaives (which several classes could use before DHs emerged), Warlocks covered just about all of that. We also had multiple agile melee classes.




    As stated earlier, these are Tinker abilities that are not covered by engineering or the racial passives;

    +The ability to turn into a mechanical, which grants certain benefits/downsides in WoW such as being immune from Fear, Bleeds, and Drains, and the inability to be healed, yet the ability to be repaired. (Robo-Goblin)
    +The ability to pilot a mech during combat. (Robo-Goblin)
    +The ability to collect scrap parts from expired machines to restore resources or empower yourself. (Break it Down)
    +The ability to rapidly upgrade machines to fit a combat situation and enhance their capabilities. (multiple abilities in WC3 and HotS)
    +The ability to instantly construct a factory that produces robots that fight for the Tinker. (Pocket Factory)
    +The ability to construct and use a rapidly expanding laser that increases damage over time. (Deth Lazor)
    +Gravity Weaponry that pulls targets towards the center, damaging them. (Grav-O-Bomb)

    Further, the racial passives and the profession don't allow you to perform a role in a group or raid.



    Those are simply talents that were added to give Gnome and Goblin Hunters a little flavor. It doesn't make them a Tinker class, but it does show that Blizzard is perfectly happy taking engineering stuff and placing them in classes.
    The problem with the tinker class is it proposes a play style that was now brought into WOW from the WC franchise and that was the concept of player controlled minions, turrets and bases. That is probably the main reason engineering is so gutted and most classes feel gutted. Everything revolves around the trinity but unfortunately DPS and heals is more important than even threat management, blocks and mitigation (tanking).

  9. #289
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,804
    Quote Originally Posted by Ckaelir View Post
    Well supposedly only Demon Hunters can weild Glaives with as much precision and still be able to retain their agility, regardless of the weapon size. But anyway, Demon Hunters are melee Warlocks, more or less, like how Death Knights are melee frost mages or melee shadow priests/warlocks or how an Enha Shaman is a melee Elemental.

    And I get your point regarding engineering, Mistweaver Monks use herbs, teas and and ancient remedies, but they aren't Herbalists.

    The thing is, Tinkers, as you describe them and as they are requested, sound like having a limited concept. Mistweavers/Herbalists are part of a class, not the entire class. Even Death Knights and Demon Hunters have new concepts introduced to make them a class (like the vampiric Blood DKs or the far stretched yet wonderful soul eating Vengeance DHs turning into a monstrosity we haven't seen before). They even introduced new races to complete the themes, Pandaren and Aldrachi.

    Tinkers as you describe them are fine for a spec but it doesn't sound enough for an entire class, they need more things to complete them.

    I'm not arguing that they shouldn't exist, just discussing and saying my opinion on why they feel limited for a class or what more they could have to make them a class.
    I disagree. A Tinker can fairly easily be developed to become a 3 or 4 spec class.

    Mechs can be utilized for DPS, Tanking or healing. (Goblins and Gnomes)
    Chemicals can be utilized for healing or DPS. (Goblins)
    Energy weapons can be used for Tanking, DPS or Healing. (Gnomes)
    Demolitions/Explosives can be used for DPS. (Goblins)
    Robotics can be utilized for tanking, DPS, or healing. (Gnomes and Goblins)

    It's a pretty wide open concept, made even more wide open by almost no other class utilizing the theme.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Simple workaround.

    Rename the Engineering profession to Tinkering (it practically already is if you consider the 'enchants').

    Presto, now they can add a class called Engineer.
    This is the best workaround I have ever heard to give the Engineer class a good name. Tinkering as a profession could then be just simple DIY-level Ikea furniture assembly and the full-fledged Engineer would be called the proper class.
    Your suggestion is simple and elegant at the same time - Kudos to you

  11. #291
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,804
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    The problem with the tinker class is it proposes a play style that was now brought into WOW from the WC franchise and that was the concept of player controlled minions, turrets and bases. That is probably the main reason engineering is so gutted and most classes feel gutted. Everything revolves around the trinity but unfortunately DPS and heals is more important than even threat management, blocks and mitigation (tanking).
    Actually the majority of WoW classes are derived from the WC RTS franchise. Especially WC3.

  12. #292
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    21,868
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    They're smarter, can produce technology far more advanced than the profession, and are restricted to two races.
    Completely irrelevant. Just because Engineer A may be smarter/more intelligent than Engineer B, doesn't mean one is an engineer and the other isn't. It doesn't mean one can invent, and the other can't.

    Engineers require schematics to create more advanced products. Tinkers create advanced products and weaponry without schematics.
    In short: "Yes, Teriz is going with the dumb "tech class invents, engineers are mentally handicapped, unable to have a single original thought" argument." Good to know.

    That's simply a fact.
    "Because I, Teriz, say so!" (tm)
    You have yet to present a lore evidence of such.

    With schematics.
    Without schematics. That argument of yours (engineers are mentally handicapped and cannot create anything new) borders on inane, so dumb it is. Please, be more intelligent and try to come up with that doesn't put your own intelligence into question.

    It's correct that the game shows technology as a formal form of combat on the same level as any magic or martial skill, yet the player cannot participate in that lore even as a Gnome or Goblin?
    You're dodging the answer. You asked if it's fair to say that a player character with the engineer profession is a representative of NPCs like Mekkatorque or Blackfuse, and my answer was two-fold: no, it' not fair, if you're talking about intellect levels; and, yes, it's fair, if you're talking about what they represent: characters dealing and creating technology.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Ckaelir View Post
    What harm can happen with another class? It just so happens that I'm not that interested into an engineering class.
    Fair enough x)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ckaelir View Post
    I'm just saying that most things a Tinker would do are already represented in the form of racial abilities. Rockets and Bombs? Goblins have them. Mech pets and mount? Both gnomes and goblins have them.

    I mean, thinking about Demon Hunters, you would imagine an agile melee class, using big glaives, fel magic, turning into a demon and consuming mana from enemies.
    Sure rogues wear leather, warriors can weild glaives, warlocks can use fel magic and Blood Elves can consume mana, but a class with all those elements wasn't in the game so there was room for it. There can be 2 fel classes or 2 sword classes, similar to how we can have 2 nature classes, Monks and Druids for example, or DKs and Warriors both weilding swords.

    What defines a Tinker that isn't already covered by Gnomes and Racial Passives?
    Agile melee class already existed. Glaives already existed. Fel magic already existed. Turning into a demon already existed. And all of those things existed as part of the toolkit of functional and powerful classes. Sure, the combination of those things is unique in the sense that there wasn't yet a class that does the entirety of those things in the same class. But then again, there isn't a class that does 100% of what a Tinker can do - it's just bits and pieces poorly represented. The racial abilities are not relevant in combat, nor is the fighting style of any player goblin or gnome centered around technology.

    If they can make a class out of the idea "melee warlock" and "melee mage" as you say it, I'm pretty sure they can make a class around non-survival-hunter technology.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ckaelir View Post
    Now if we talk about using mechanical limbs and stuff and imbuing magic into artificial body parts and weapons, well, that's another story but I don't think that's what a Warcraft Tinker does.
    Well, it could be a way of making Tinker a hero class: Tinkers would be heroes who suffered great injuries in battle and were saved by and now require the aid of technology in order to fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ckaelir View Post
    Off-topic: Regarding Survival Hunters, they tried to make an Iron Horde class basically, having talents like "the way of the Mok'Nathal" and Sticky Bombs and Tar, but they also tried to give the old Survival feel back, fighting like an animal without being one (difference with Ferals), and they spiced it up with Gnomes and Mech pets.
    Those themes don't blend in well together though imo and I see them either removing the Technology theme altogether and focusing on the animal fighter style with Mongoose Bites and stuff or making Survival an entirely mech spec, so badically turning him into a Tinker (though I doubt it cause it doesn't fit the fantasy and the other specs anyway).
    Maybe, but even a tinker-ish spec doesn't cover the potential of a tinker class. As you say, it's basicly a direct reflection of the Iron Horde and specifically the Thunderlord clan hunters, I believe. That's just part of how they do their classes nowadays, they had some matching abilities previously locked to NPCs and such. For instance DKs eventually got Remortless Winter, an abilitie previously used only by the Lich King, as well as Breath of SIndragosa. Warriors got SoO's Nazgrim's Ravager ability in WoD.

    Tinkers could have at the very least one spec of each type, and it can include in many different ways (depending on how they go about it) different styles of mech armor, suits or vehicle-like contraptions. In-game examples that can be taken as inspiration:






    Tank - Uses technological armor to become stronger and sturdier. Can have abilities based on short-range technology like flamethrower, shotgun, sawblades, steam-powered hammer/mace, mines, explosive charges. Depends all-in-all on wether they make the spec entirely around permanent use of mecha/steam armor (could be basicly your "combat" form, similar to how the Worgen can walk around as humans but automatically change to Worgen on combat), or wether it becomes a regularly used cooldown or big defensive cooldown.

    Melee DPS - Think of an exoskeleton akin to HotS gazlowe (example above). Has a balanced number of melee and short-range abilities, deployable turrets.

    Ranged DPS - Can be designed around an exoskeleton (to throw grenades and bombs farther, for instance), or not. Focused around medum-range abilities, like throwable explosives, guns, lasers, throwable sawblades, etc. Can also mix in Goblin Alchemist abilities.

    Healer - Can be done nearly full technology - for instance, shooting healing darts, healing grenades, smoke grenades, deployable shields, bandage shotgun, etc. Can also mix in War3 Goblin Alchemist abilities.

    Obviously this is just some random examples put together by me (who is defenitely not a game or class designer), really just an example of how it can be made very unique and different than any other class gameplay and fantasy. Here are some examples of actually implemented gameplay that could be used as reference to design a Tinker class:
    HotS Gazlowe
    Goblin Tinker
    Goblin Alchemist
    Siegecrafter Blackfuse
    Iron Juggernaut
    Mechashredder 5000

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    ... Are you going with the dumb "tech class invents, engineers are mentally handicapped and unable to have original thoughts" argument?
    That was never anyone's argument, by the way. That was a description of what in-game player engineers are able to do. Which is relevant since we are discussing the possibility of players being able to be Tinkers as a gameplay class, seperately from Engineering as a gameplay profession.
    Last edited by Kolvarg; 2016-12-03 at 04:20 PM.

  14. #294
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    21,868
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    That was never anyone's argument, by the way.
    Actually, that is the argument. The engineers are somehow incapable of coming up with something new and can only follow someone else's instructions:
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I have little doubt that if you put either one of them (Blackfuse or Mekkatorque) in a scrap heap or a junk yard, they'd build some high level equipment in a very short amount of time.
    And I have little doubt that any engineer would be able to do the same. Maybe not in the same short time, since they may not be as smart as those lore figures, but they could indeed build something great.
    With schematics.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  15. #295
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,804
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Completely irrelevant. Just because Engineer A may be smarter/more intelligent than Engineer B, doesn't mean one is an engineer and the other isn't. It doesn't mean one can invent, and the other can't.
    Um, how is intelligence not relevant when it is intelligence that allows Goblins and Gnomes to be far more technologically advanced than the other races? Weren't you just pointing out that no other race on Azeroth lives as much technology as Goblins and Gnomes? Why do you think that is? Clearly Gnomes and Goblins are more capable of inventing technological devices than other races, which is why the super geniuses of technology within the game are almost entirely Goblins and Gnomes.

    In short: "Yes, Teriz is going with the dumb "tech class invents, engineers are mentally handicapped, unable to have a single original thought" argument." Good to know.
    Not what I said. I said that it is clear that tech geniuses like Blackfuse and Mekkatorque can construct advanced tech without the use of schematics or blueprints. That isn't to say that a warrior or a mage isn't intelligent. In fact, it requires a great deal of intelligence to be a Mage in WoW.

    In short, thanks for the straw-man.


    "Because I, Teriz, say so!" (tm)
    You have yet to present a lore evidence of such.
    The lore evidence is that we only see Goblins and Gnomes living in technologically advanced cities. We only see Gnomes and Goblins being capable of reverse engineering Titan technology. We only see Goblins and Gnomes riding around in mechs and developing advanced technological weaponry.


    Without schematics. That argument of yours (engineers are mentally handicapped and cannot create anything new) borders on inane, so dumb it is. Please, be more intelligent and try to come up with that doesn't put your own intelligence into question.
    Except I never made that argument. Would we consider Varian, Thrall, Khadger, Sylvannas, Gen Greymane, or Malfurion "mentally handicapped" simply because they can't construct a robot from pure creativity without the use of schematics like Gelbin Mekkatorque can?

    What a stupid argument.

    You're dodging the answer. You asked if it's fair to say that a player character with the engineer profession is a representative of NPCs like Mekkatorque or Blackfuse, and my answer was two-fold: no, it' not fair, if you're talking about intellect levels; and, yes, it's fair, if you're talking about what they represent: characters dealing and creating technology.
    Except a Shaman taking up Engineering isn't a character creating or dealing with technology. My character is a shaman first and foremost, and is defined by Shamanistic lore. Hence why I can dump engineering at any point and not suffer a major penalty. If I dump Shamanism, I have to delete the entire character. Engineering has nothing to do with the lore of my character. It is merely an addition that I can choose to pursue to improve my existing character's stats or wallet in some way.

    Characters like Mekkatorque and Blackfuse are defined by technology, and their super-human engineering ability is an integral part of their character's lore. Just like my Shaman's super-human ability to connect to the spirit world and use various nature and spirit magics is an integral part of its character.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And I have little doubt that any engineer would be able to do the same. Maybe not in the same short time, since they may not be as smart as those lore figures, but they could indeed build something great.
    With schematics.
    They wouldn't be able to do it even with schematics because schematics require specific items and materials. A genius level inventor can improvise those items and materials and create advanced technology. Think Tony Stark in a cave creating an Arcus Reactor from scraps in the first Iron Man film. That is the character archetype we're talking about here.

    That is the line of demarcation.

  16. #296
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    21,868
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Um, how is intelligence not relevant
    I said it's irrelevant because it still doesn't support your idea that one engineer can invent anything they want, while the other, for some unexplained reason, cannot create anything new.

    Not what I said. I said that it is clear that tech geniuses like Blackfuse and Mekkatorque can construct advanced tech without the use of schematics or blueprints.
    "That is not what I said" *proceeds to confirm what he had just previously denied*

    It doesn't matter if you are as intelligent as Blackfuse, or Mekkatorque, or just your average engineer around Azeroth. The all can create new things without schematics.

    The lore evidence is that we only see Goblins and Gnomes living in technologically advanced cities. We only see Gnomes and Goblins being capable of reverse engineering Titan technology. We only see Goblins and Gnomes riding around in mechs and developing advanced technological weaponry.
    That wasn't your argument. Your argument that Tinkers can create high-tech stuff without blueprints, but not engineers, without showing any proof of that, or even that engineers and tinkers aren't the same thing, other than your patented "because I, Teriz, say so!" (tm)

    Except I never made that argument. Would we consider Varian, Thrall, Khadger, Sylvannas, Gen Greymane, or Malfurion "mentally handicapped" simply because they can't construct a robot from pure creativity without the use of schematics like Gelbin Mekkatorque can?
    Except we're not talking about Varian, Thrall, Khadgar, Sylvannas, Genn Greymane or Malfurion, are we? We're talking about engineers.

    Except a Shaman taking up Engineering isn't a character creating or dealing with technology.
    Just like a Warrior taking up herbalism isn't a character collecting herbs and flowers. Just like a mage taking up mining isn't a character extracting mineral ores from veins. Just like a paladin taking up alchemy isn't a character creating or dealing with potions. Just like a Hunter taking up blacksmithing isn't a character creating weapons and armor. Right? (/sarcasm)

    Characters like Mekkatorque and Blackfuse are defined by technology, and their super-human engineering ability is an integral part of their character's lore. Just like my Shaman's super-human ability to connect to the spirit world and use various nature and spirit magics is an integral part of its character.
    That doesn't explain why you think engineers are somehow incapable of creating original stuff.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  17. #297
    I rather Blizz take a break and balance the classes sure if we talk about the expansion after the next one, it would be cool with a tinker class

  18. #298
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    21,868
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    They wouldn't be able to do it even with schematics because schematics require specific items and materials. A genius level inventor can improvise those items and materials and create advanced technology. Think Tony Stark in a cave creating an Arcus Reactor from scraps in the first Iron Man film. That is the character archetype we're talking about here.
    So, not only you claim they're incapable of creating original stuff, now you're adding "incapable of improvising" to the list of what engineers can't do?
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Actually, that is the argument. The engineers are somehow incapable of coming up with something new and can only follow someone else's instructions:
    And in-game, that's true. The argument didn't start form that, as far as I know it originated from this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    A Profession is a term for a set of skills that supplement Adventuring, but by no means dominates the Adventurer's core identity. They can train their skills or learn through experimentation as well, but they never improve with experience. They can rank up their skills and learn to craft better items and cast stronger enchants, but it never scales with their own skill level. This can be explained it's because Professionals follow a strict guideline of rules that yield the same results, thus never growing in potential; only gaining the ability to learn better abilities. An example of this is a Blacksmith making armor; he can craft the same armor piece a thousand times and it will never be stronger than before. A blacksmith can learn to make different version that's stronger, but his skills in mastering that one type of armor never improves. He follows the patterns he is given. Lorewise, an Adventurer's Profession never evolves by itself, only the techniques that are formally passed down from Trainers to their Apprentices. When we see a character like Mekkatorque or Gazlowe, technically they should not be 'Engineers' because that would only be addressing them by their professions. Even though Magni Bronzebeard forged the Ashbringer, he isn't identified by his Blacksmithing profession choice. The theme of Technology should not be defined by Engineering, rather it is simply one aspect of Technology.
    Which was the single point you disagreed on that originated pretty much your entire conversation with Thimagryn.

    But again, it's true. A player who indulges in the Engineering Profession (gameplay term), is someone who creates tech solely based on already existing blueprints, that he never improves or invents himself. That doesn't imply every Engineer in the lore is like that. Simply that in-game player engineers (as well as every other profession crafter) are only able to craft specific objects within very specific rules.

    The simple fact is that he was using gameplay terminology "Tinker (Class)" and "Engineer (Profession)" to describe certain people in-game. I don't believe he or anyone else here ever defends that lore-wise there's that clear distinction or that the terms aren't ever used interchangeably, but rather that the in-game definition of Tinker (Class) and Engineer (Profession) can describe characters in the lore, even if the lore doesn't inherently describes them as such (because in the lore, classes and professions don't exist), without "breaking" or conflicting with the lore.

    What I mean is: In the lore there is no strict definition of the Warrior class. "Warrior" can be used to describe anyone who fights in battles. But it's not wrong to say Varian Wrynn fights as the Warrior Class, because "Warrior Class" describes a way of fighting that matches Varian's, even though "Warrior Class" is pure gameplay terminology.

    The same applies to Engineering and Tinkering. "Tinker Class" is a name we're using to describe someone who uses techonology to fight, could be somethign entirely different like "Battle Engineer Class". That doesn't imply that term, in the lore, is used the same way. It's just what we're calling that style of fighting, which doesn't have to match what they're called in the lore (as there's no consensus or strict definition for a battle-engineer type, as far as I know), because it's a pure gameplay element.

    TL;DR: Classes and Professions names are terms WE , people in the real world, use to describe certain things in the game and lore. We can apply that terminology to the lore because it describes something that exists in the lore, even if the term itself doesn't exist or doesn't mean the same in the lore. It doesn't break the lore, because it's seperate from it.
    Last edited by Kolvarg; 2016-12-03 at 05:30 PM.

  20. #300
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,804
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I said it's irrelevant because it still doesn't support your idea that one engineer can invent anything they want, while the other, for some unexplained reason, cannot create anything new.
    It supports it perfectly. Tony Stark in Iron Man is simply smarter in the realm of technology and robotics than the rest of the Avengers. "Tinkers" are simply smarter in the realm of technology and robotics than profession Engineers.

    It doesn't matter if you are as intelligent as Blackfuse, or Mekkatorque, or just your average engineer around Azeroth. The all can create new things without schematics.
    Then why can't Engineers of the Engineering profession do it?

    That wasn't your argument. Your argument that Tinkers can create high-tech stuff without blueprints, but not engineers, without showing any proof of that, or even that engineers and tinkers aren't the same thing, other than your patented "because I, Teriz, say so!" (tm)
    You just quoted the proof.

    Except we're not talking about Varian, Thrall, Khadgar, Sylvannas, Genn Greymane or Malfurion, are we? We're talking about engineers.
    Your argument is that individuals who aren't geniuses in the field of technology or robotics are "mentally handicapped". Varian is fully capable in lore to take up Engineering. He will NEVER be as good as Mekkatorque in that field. That doesn't make him mentally handicapped. Just like Gelbin will NEVER be good at hand to hand combat as Varian.

    Hope that helps.

    Just like a Warrior taking up herbalism isn't a character collecting herbs and flowers. Just like a mage taking up mining isn't a character extracting mineral ores from veins. Just like a paladin taking up alchemy isn't a character creating or dealing with potions. Just like a Hunter taking up blacksmithing isn't a character creating weapons and armor. Right? (/sarcasm)
    That's right, because that isn't the lore of the character. That is a player choice that can be altered at will throughout the game. For example, I can make my Warrior an expert herbalist, and then completely dump all of that knowledge and take up mining. The professions are merely add-ons to our characters, they don't define them. Technology defines characters like Mekkatorque.

    That doesn't explain why you think engineers are somehow incapable of creating original stuff.
    Because they don't create original stuff. They make trinkets, tools, and vehicles from schematics primarily to sell to other players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So, not only you claim they're incapable of creating original stuff, now you're adding "incapable of improvising" to the list of what engineers can't do?
    Blackfuse reverse engineered titan tech and invented the Iron Star. Mekkatorque invented the Mechanostrider and his current steam suit.

    The engineering profession isn't capable of doing that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    TL;DR: Classes and Professions names are terms WE , people in the real world, use to describe certain things in the game and lore. We can apply that terminology to the lore because it describes something that exists in the lore, even if the term itself doesn't or doesn't mean the same in the lore. It doesn't break the lore, because it's seperate from it.
    Exactly. Thank you posting that.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •