Could someone please explain why Blizzard doesn't fine-tune their "lots of knobs" ?

[mushroms]

ofcourse you should do worse if you are less skilled. but the question is how many mistakes are you allowed to make before you can't complete a certain task.

to take an extreme example: you could make a spec where you have to press 20 buttons correctly in 12 seconds on a 0.5sec GCD with various procs with different priorities, if you do it correctly you one shot the boss.

with a stupid spec like this, only the most skilled can succeed, and everybody else fails.

that's an awful argument, none of the specs are too difficult to play. there's not really much of an excuse for not being good at your class. if you're bad at your class, you should do worse.

[Deleted]

that's an awful argument, none of the specs are too difficult to play. there's not really much of an excuse for not being good at your class. if you're bad at your class, you should do worse.

go look at the link in the first post. look at 95percentile first, then change it to 10percentile. the highest bad player can't beat the lowest good player, and that is before we even consider the ~95% of players who haven't killed mythic ursoc.

not saying whether they should beat them or not, but obviously skill variance is significant and should be accounted for. which it obviously is since people of significantly different skill level can beat the same boss, the good people can just beat him faster.

[Snackwiches]

How about they make classes unique and we take them off of actual strengths and Blizzard fucks off this retarded method of endless 5-10% buffs and nerfs.

[Wilfire]

What spec utility are you talking about if it's not AoE/ST DPS or burst potential? Because I don't think you have any grasp on how spec utility differentiates specs or the 'reason' for it.

Priests mind controlling on Blast Furnace mythic, hunters kiting on Tortos hc, for example. Unfortunately Blizzard pruned utility toolkits of most classes and watered down boss design to "make a circular room, place a whack-a-mole big baddie in the middle of it and have a clusterfuck of adds and aoe raid damage coming from every direction".

[mushroms]

go look at the link in the first post. look at 95percentile first, then change it to 10percentile. the highest bad player can't beat the lowest good player, and that is before we even consider the ~95% of players who haven't killed mythic ursoc.

Yes, and? Maybe they should get better at the game if you want to do better.

[Spoonman]

I think its a complete Joke, games been out 12 years and its never acctualy been balanced and I have absolutely no idea why
It so easy to do, they have thousands of logs and they have some good feedback on Forums but nothing happens
I want to see weekly buffs and nerfs by % but were not getting shit, everyone just sits and wait for a balancing patch but when it arrives we havent got shit anyway

The main problem today tho is that it feels like the players know how the game work better than developers and I have never said that to be true before
A lot of big names left Blizzard so there is new blood building it up, Vanilla Players who are still here after all these years have a lot of knowledge and at this point I trust more on those kind of players than Blizzard themselves
There is a lot of good feedback threads going on at Forums specialy on US forums(since Blizz doesnt give a damn about EU) about class balance and the term "We agree on that" is being used by Blizzard more than ive ever seen
Way to much feedback gets missed out on tho which is why we have incomplete games on Launch days

I really think Blizzard should hire the elite players from both PvP and PvE and let them be a part of balancing the game

[Schattenlied]

I think its a complete Joke, games been out 12 years and its never acctualy been balanced and I have absolutely no idea why

I can tell you why, it's because blizzard fucking revamps every class every other expansion... I'll just copy paste my rant from the WoW forums because I don't feel like typing it all out again.

Please, stop revamping most classes every expansion...

People wonder every expansion how the class balance gets so screwed up, well, it's because you guys are handicapping yourselves... You're basically forcing yourselves to start class balance over from scratch every couple of years instead of just tweaking what you already have to perfection...

Let's take the class designs from say, WotLK... almost all of them were very solid mechanically, they just needed number tweaks... So, instead of just continuing to tweak numbers, you all opted to redesign a bunch of them for cataclysm and threw a bag full of wrenches into the works... Imagine if those designs had stayed basically the same over all the years till now, just tweaking numbers and fixing minor imperfections, how much better would class balance be by now?

This big mess we're all in where tons of people are flipping out over what is being done to their favorite classes? Wouldn't have happened if you had stuck with the WoD class designs (which were all perfectly mechanically solid designs that didn't need to be thrown out) and just tweaked them to perfection.

See what I'm getting at here? Please stop redesigning classes every expansion, it's very clearly not working... Not to mention it costs a ton of dev time that could be put to use elsewhere, like dungeons and raids, or world content, or just getting the next expansion out faster like you kept saying you wanted to do.

TL;DR is blizzard operates illogically.

[Spoonman]

I can tell you why, it's because blizzard fucking revamps every class every other expansion... I'll just copy paste my rant from the WoW forums because I don't feel like typing it all out again.

I dont think thats the problem
The problem is that there arent enough number tweaks. We could get % changes daily but we arent
Players log everything there are DPS HPS results out there to use but nope lets not do anything
There are loads of forum complaints that are backed up by this also

[Thorbalt]

Referring to this chart: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=95&bracket=20

There is a 22.7% ST dps difference between the top (excluding SPs for obvious reasons) spec (Arms) and bottom spec (BM). Why can't Blizzard apply a hotfix to buff BM damage by 22.7% to bring it in line with Arms and do that with the rest of specs as well until there is a +-1% difference between the bottom and top specs? I get it that different specs are supposed to have different strength but compromising on ST performance is unhealthy since a lot of encounters require you to burst the boss or an add down in a certain amount of time. Spec utility to differentiate between specs exists for a reason.

pardon my blunt as fuck question but....




when the fucking god damned hell did the playerbase become perfect little robots who do the exact same amount of damage in every fight no matter the conditions, which is the ONE AND ONLY FUCKING WAY you could EVER just shoot a class by x% damage and not fuck shit up 2592348 ways from friday

[Schattenlied]

I dont think thats the problem
The problem is that there arent enough number tweaks. We could get % changes daily but we arent
Players log everything there are DPS HPS results out there to use but nope lets not do anything
There are loads of forum complaints that are backed up by this also

We wouldn't need that if they didnt revamp the classes every expansion, they could have been tweaked to perfection years ago if they didn't keep redesigning them... The only class that should need number tweaks right now is the new class, DH, the others should already be done.

[FelPlague]

Referring to this chart: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=95&bracket=20

There is a 22.7% ST dps difference between the top (excluding SPs for obvious reasons) spec (Arms) and bottom spec (BM). Why can't Blizzard apply a hotfix to buff BM damage by 22.7% to bring it in line with Arms and do that with the rest of specs as well until there is a +-1% difference between the bottom and top specs? I get it that different specs are supposed to have different strength but compromising on ST performance is unhealthy since a lot of encounters require you to burst the boss or an add down in a certain amount of time. Spec utility to differentiate between specs exists for a reason.

because bm is a ranged spec that is very mobile and can attack and move
well arms is a melee dps spec that has to be near the boss

so having a class that HAS TO BE IN MELEE do the same damage as a spec that can be anywhere, is not good balancing, thats why

[Schattenlied]

so having a class that HAS TO BE IN MELEE do the same damage as a spec that can be anywhere, is not good balancing, thats why

by that logic every ranged class should be below every melee on the charts.

[Synadrasa]

I mean just look at shadow priests. They wait so long to make changes it's embarrassing. Shadow priest being number one on every single fight in the game is a coincidence? I mean I remember playing my mage back in beta when EVERYONE was playing fire and they didn't give a shit to buff frost, and then the game comes out and everyone is playing fire and frost is complete shit.

[Callypso]

The biggest factor in dps (and tanking/healing) is skill. A 20% gap may seem huge, but it really isn't when you factor in skills.

Skill is, amongst a dozen other things
- Not only knowing your rotation, but the ability to ANTICIPATE how you have to adapt your rotation to the fight. I'm not only talking about 'do this in phase 1, and this in phase 2', but also 'if random ability X targets me, I can optimize my dps by doing Y'. This is HUGE for dps.
- Similarly, smart positioning make a enormous difference in your dps vs. someone that doesn't think ahead
- All of this is completely dependent on your guilds strategy, your role in the raid, etc. Not something you can read up on the web.
- Knowing what to do isn't the same as actually doing it.
- Related: reactionspeed.
- etc etc.

These factors combined make up such a huge difference in potential dps. Not to mention that depending on the amount of movement, singletarget, multitarget, the type of multitarget, the position of enemies etc etc all change the ranking of classes.

If you've truly mastered your class you can start worrying about those last few %'s between top and bottom classes. But the amount of people that can really claim that is extremely small. Even top mythic guilds need a large number of attempts to kill some bosses. Why? Because they're mastering the points listed above for the specific encounter.

Until then, your efforts are best spent at improving your gameplay. Buff yourself, basically.

[FelPlague]

by that logic every ranged class should be below every melee on the charts.

not really
because hunters are a ranged spec that doesent need to stand still to cast
melee can move and attack, but must be in melee
ranged can be at range but need to stand still to attack
hunters are a hybrid they can be at range, and move and attack
so they should never be top dps

so lets say there is a ranged class that
is able to attack at range
can move and attack
extremely mobile
lots of utility
tanky as a tank
lots of self heal


should that spec be allowed to be top dps ever?

[Spoonman]

so having a class that HAS TO BE IN MELEE do the same damage as a spec that can be anywhere, is not good balancing, thats why

Or maybe the problem is encounter design?

[Tradu]

The biggest factor in dps (and tanking/healing) is skill. A 20% gap may seem huge, but it really isn't when you factor in skills.

Skill is, amongst a dozen other things
- Not only knowing your rotation, but the ability to ANTICIPATE how you have to adapt your rotation to the fight. I'm not only talking about 'do this in phase 1, and this in phase 2', but also 'if random ability X targets me, I can optimize my dps by doing Y'. This is HUGE for dps.
- Similarly, smart positioning make a enormous difference in your dps vs. someone that doesn't think ahead
- All of this is completely dependent on your guilds strategy, your role in the raid, etc. Not something you can read up on the web.
- Knowing what to do isn't the same as actually doing it.
- Related: reactionspeed.
- etc etc.

These factors combined make up such a huge difference in potential dps. Not to mention that depending on the amount of movement, singletarget, multitarget, the type of multitarget, the position of enemies etc etc all change the ranking of classes.

If you've truly mastered your class you can start worrying about those last few %'s between top and bottom classes. But the amount of people that can really claim that is extremely small. Even top mythic guilds need a large number of attempts to kill some bosses. Why? Because they're mastering the points listed above for the specific encounter.

Until then, your efforts are best spent at improving your gameplay. Buff yourself, basically.

The 20% gap is comparing specs in actual gameplay, so none of your points disprove anything. This is people doing all of those things while also doing very high DPS, and the gap when doing that is pretty big. Obviously skill is a big factor, but there is definitely a point where class balance comes into it, and just disregarding that "because you could just play better" is a terrible argument. You could also just switch to a stronger spec and play that at the same level as your old character, but get more DPS out of it.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

What makes you think they don't? Do you not read patch notes or hotfixes?

There is a lot of data to process. Its not as quick and easy as you may think it is because you only focus on a single element in a MASSIVE undertaking.

[Tradu]

What makes you think they don't? Do you not read patch notes or hotfixes?

There is a lot of data to process. Its not as quick and easy as you may think it is because you only focus on a single element in a MASSIVE undertaking.

While that's true, they've still been doing a terrible job at balancing based on the data(and feedback) they have.

[Raxz]

Some classes will never do good ST and some will never do good AOE thanks to "strengths and weaknesses" philosophy. I don't think Blizzard thought that one through -- they wanted to have multiple avenues for progression but instead ended up with all avenues being mandatory. People see mythic+ as a means to an end to be able to get enough gear to get into raids. So unless you're a class that can do both you can end up having a very hard time. I believe with time, towards the end of the expansion, the gap will shrink, but there will still be a significant gap and it will be completely unintentional, unfortunately.

If they continue with this philosophy IMO what needs to happen is all classes that have only one DPS spec (Priests, paladins, demon hunters, etc.) need to be able to talent into either AOE or ST and be viable. As for classes with multiple DPS specs... I really do think artifact knowledge is working just fine. It's easier to maintain an off-spec than you might think. What needs to happen for multiple DPS spec classes is at least one of them needs to be the king of ST for that class and another the king of AOE, and the legendaries need to be class-wide instead of spec-specific because people are going to be switching a lot. I've already known some Warlocks to just switch to Demo when raiding and Destro when dungeoning -- if you're going to force people to do this, at least make the transition less painful.

Ideally though just scrap the whole idea of including damage as parts of strengths and weaknesses philosophy. Give us strengths and weaknesses of mobility, utility, survivability etc. instead.