[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Lumineus]

Er... logic check? There is no way ~70% damage on three abilities every two minutes is worth 25 ilvl on a weapon. Even if all three are Templar's Verdict crits.

[Deleted]

check storms post again +40 and +51 usually results in a difference of 11 ilvl and if you don´t belief me please check the discord.
should I be wrong I´ll gladly accept correction and wil thank you for it

[urw]

eee easy math according to table on 1st page

840 AW = 11,84% dps increase
40x0,25+1,84 = 11,84
875 SE = 13,36% dps increase
51x0,25+0,61 = 13,36%

delta ~1,52%, the ilvl on the relic crushes here the bis trait relic here...

[Ulthane]

Curious

Kil'jaedens Burning Wish + Chain of Thrayn next patch? Seems to be a ton of burst on top of decent str on the trinket for throughput.

- - - Updated - - -

Also my curiosity extends to combining Kiljaedens with the Str trink that lowers cd of Wings from elisande? (2x str trinks)

[Inb4gkick]

Curious

Kil'jaedens Burning Wish + Chain of Thrayn next patch? Seems to be a ton of burst on top of decent str on the trinket for throughput.

- - - Updated - - -

Also my curiosity extends to combining Kiljaedens with the Str trink that lowers cd of Wings from elisande? (2x str trinks)

Yeah, that Elisandre wings trinket is going to be ridiculous and seems to work very well with Chain of Pain.

[vacor]

From testing on December 2nd
Belt does not currently work with crusade.
New legendary trinket scales with damage modifiers such as crusade.
Wake shoulders do not have a rebuff or buff notification regarding the 20% increased damage, but they do work.

The 4piece tier set leads to watching holy power extremely carefully.
Example. Sitting at 2 holy power and you crusader strike and it procs your now sitting at 4.
If you have legendary ret ring you could very well jump from 2 holy power to 5 with a single crusader strike.
Then if your taking TFOJ your in effect sitting at 6 holy power from once GCD.
Overlapping and wasting holy power is a very real concern.

Other thoughts going forward
- the belt will be fixed to work with crusade. No clue why it's bugged
- assuming we have access to BIS legendarys ( back, belt, ring, trinket)
We will need to have other gear for those slots to make legendary swaps ( I'm assuming that the trinket will be amazing for mythic + or large Aoe fights.)

Without access to simc atm
The most solid legendarysfor a net DPS increase will be the Back/belt/and trinket
To me the liadrins fury ring along with the 4 set bonus will lead to a lot of wasted holy power during crusade.
And I feel that should be minimized.
However with very good skill at holy power management it might be a strong contender.

[Eon Drache]

A bit confused with the trinket rankings. I have an 850 Faulty Countermeasure that I've been using for a while, but recently got the heroic Str/Crit trinket from Odyn. Offering 1557 strength and 1024 crit. This crit trinket is simming 2k dps higher than Countermeasure but 1k less than Swarming Plaguehive. Anything wrong with simcraft or am I finally switching my trinket?

[Deleted]

eee easy math according to table on 1st page

840 AW = 11,84% dps increase
40x0,25+1,84 = 11,84
875 SE = 13,36% dps increase
51x0,25+0,61 = 13,36%

delta ~1,52%, the ilvl on the relic crushes here the bis trait relic here...

i was not talking about first page i was talking about the pic i linked from discord please correct me on this one not on first page

[Gloriandus]

Since SimCraft is so well-promoted, I thought I'd give it a whirl just to check things out (I'm an LFR hero/casual, but still like to "keep up", so to speak).

First run, it tells me Versatility and Haste are the highest-weighted stats for me. So I bump those up a bit with some enchants, gems, and gear swapping. Run it again, and now Versatility and Crit are my top stats, with Haste falling way behind.

I guess I don't understand what the point of SimCraft is when every piece of gear you have equipped can change the stat weights. Going by what I hear/read about it, you're somehow supposed to glean what's best for your DPS spec from the results. How do you do that if every time you swap things, it changes? There's only 3-5k DPS difference between the runs.

[Inb4gkick]

First run, it tells me Versatility and Haste are the highest-weighted stats for me. So I bump those up a bit with some enchants, gems, and gear swapping. Run it again, and now Versatility and Crit are my top stats, with Haste falling way behind.

It's not that all stats have changing values depending on gear it's more that you need up to a certain amount of haste and then the value of crit and verse skyrocket. I am pretty sure that for almost every ret paladin after a certain amount of haste its Verse>=Crit>Haste>>Mastery. For haste, it all depends on how many gcds in judgement you can actually capitalize on and how long you have to wait after judgement falls off and you cast it again and you're aiming to make it so the judgement cd lines up with that GCD and you're not waiting an extra .2seconds or so for the cd to be over the next sweet spot is at a lot higher haste where you have judgement up almost all de time. That is why the relative value of haste is so "spikey". General rule of thumb is anything 15ilvls higher with strength is an upgrade regardless
There's only a handful of things you'd need to consider:
1. If you have Whispers of the Nathrezim, I'll trade you my Prdaz, Sephuz, and raid spot
2. More crit and verse are always better if you're above like 22%ish haste
3. Although the 2.5s Avenging Wrath/Crusade relic is good you can still do reasonably well with anything that raises ilvl and has some sort of %crit/damage trait. What I mean is you don't need Crusade to be at 35 seconds 32.5 or even 30 is good enough and 30 is doable with the Xavius fire relic
4. If the simdps goes from 300k->298k then it's not necessarily a downgrade

[Deleted]

- the belt will be fixed to work with crusade. No clue why it's bugged

CoT+Crusade is disabled because it was even more bugged before . It was giving me 1720%+ haste and a huge damage multiplier, albeit hard to calculate as the tooltip was just saying 90%. Presumably it was fully modifying per stack rather than cumulatively. Can't be that complicated to sort out but they just aren't there yet I guess. Blizz skeleton staff atm for sure

[vacor]

CoT+Crusade is disabled because it was even more bugged before . It was giving me 1720%+ haste and a huge damage multiplier, albeit hard to calculate as the tooltip was just saying 90%. Presumably it was fully modifying per stack rather than cumulatively. Can't be that complicated to sort out but they just aren't there yet I guess. Blizz skeleton staff atm for sure

Oh I know I enjoyed that while it lasted, having 1400% haste and the movement speed legendary boots was insanely funny to play.

[Inb4gkick]

The 4piece tier set leads to watching holy power extremely carefully.
Example. Sitting at 2 holy power and you crusader strike and it procs your now sitting at 4.
If you have legendary ret ring you could very well jump from 2 holy power to 5 with a single crusader strike.
Then if your taking TFOJ your in effect sitting at 6 holy power from once GCD.
Overlapping and wasting holy power is a very real concern.

Would I be right in assuming that with Nighthold/Tier being available, higher crit and haste from higher ilvl, and the 4 set overcapping HP that Virtue's blade is going to be the go to?

[vacor]

Depends.
The main issue I would see with overcapping is during crusade with both 4peice and liadrins fury.
In that situation assuming crit is at a reasonable level ( greater then 30%) virtue blade will pull ahead.
Without one of those critical factors. BoW will be best, if stats go live as they are BoW will be best due to lower levels of haste.

[Vuagnon]

I'm feeling regret for maining a ret. Finding a trinket is impossible, aoe sucks and utility doesn't help mythic keystones much. Think this is the end of the way for me. I'll either try holy or be just done with this.

[Piwielle]

AoE is great, and utility is useful for M+.

[Vuagnon]

AoE is great, and utility is useful for M+.

No, it's not. Stop lying to yourself.

[Elkas]

I'm feeling regret for maining a ret. Finding a trinket is impossible, aoe sucks and utility doesn't help mythic keystones much. Think this is the end of the way for me. I'll either try holy or be just done with this.

The issue is with you, not the class. Our AoE is outstanding and our utility is more than adequate. If you can't get lucky with getting good trinkets from Mythic+, just farm regular Mythic for a while. You don't need trinkets that are +ilvl 850 in order for them to be half decent.

[Vuagnon]

The issue is with you, not the class. Our AoE is outstanding and our utility is more than adequate. If you can't get lucky with getting good trinkets from Mythic+, just farm regular Mythic for a while. You don't need trinkets that are +ilvl 850 in order for them to be half decent.

Outstanding? We have to spend a talent point for a poorly made on demand cleave ability, which replaces crusader strike, nerfing our st damage and there is no other choice.

[Ryuji]

The issue is with you, not the class. Our AoE is outstanding and our utility is more than adequate. If you can't get lucky with getting good trinkets from Mythic+, just farm regular Mythic for a while. You don't need trinkets that are +ilvl 850 in order for them to be half decent.

The AoE isn't very outstanding compared to Windwalker, Outlaw, DH, even Fury. It can do respectable damage but usually other melee besides maybe an Enh Shaman without legendaries or Survival Hunters will do more AoE damage. The utility is there though. BoP still useful on a lot of mechanics, as is bubble, freedom etc. Blinding Light even for some situations or just to give a moment's pause.