Trump just pissed off Beijing in a major way

[Tiberria]

I

The practical reality is, Taiwan is a self governing country and the People's Republic of China does not exercise its authority there.

The political reality is that any kind of acceptance of this fact would undermine the Chinese Communist Party's claim to single party rule in China in a very fundamental way. It would be an existential threat to the regime for them to normalize and accept that Taiwan is independent. The foundation of their claim on power is that after centuries of being carved up by foreign powers, the Chinese Communist Party unified ALL of historic China, and restored China's traditional standing in the world. Were a Western Power be allowed to carve off a slice of it still, it would destroy that foundation. This is why, in Russia threads, we remind the Russians here that Chinese claims on parts of the Russian Far East, taken as one of their "Unequal Treaties" are still outstanding, and one day, they will want them back.

But, why does it make sense for the USA and the rest of the western world to continue to walk on egg shells to essentially prop up the Beijing regime, which is a Communist, totalitarian regime with a horrific record on human rights and basic freedoms? Especially, when it is doing so at the expense of not recognizing Taiwan, which in the decades since the 1979 agreement has become a full modern democracy? Doesn't doing so in effect go against American and Western values for the sake of appeasing a brutal dictatorship?

At some point, what made sense nearly 40 years ago no longer makes sense, and it is time to pull the rug out from under Beijing. Plus, the US has trillions of dollars of debt owing to China. If they throw a fit over the US acknowledging what has been obvious for decades and start threatening things, can't the US just cripple their economy by cutting off debt repayments and saying that based on their insolent conduct, they no longer feel the obligation to honor those debts?

[Laerrus]

Source: http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/02/donal...iwan-call.html

So yeah Trump just managed to piss on 40 years of US policy, piss off Beijing, and it was probably on accident....

Either way, it would benefit us to make as many friends as possible. The past two administrations have wreaked havoc on our foreign relations.

To the Chinese Government, stop acting like a small child and get the fuck over it.

[Surfd]

Wow Therionn, I don't think I have seen that much mindless jingoism posted by anyone, like, ever. I mean, it's cute that you actually seem to think that America invented freedom or something, and is somehow the steward of freedom for the rest of the world, but the big boys are talking here. Go wave your flag over in the corner over there, where you can't accidentally hit someone with it and start an international incident that ends up getting a lot of innocent people killed.

[Tsar Bomba]

Oh come on. Taiwan already has freedom, and it already has independence.

Why do they have that? Answer that, and you will realize you've proved his point.

[Deleted]

Wow Therionn, I don't think I have seen that much mindless jingoism posted by anyone, like, ever. I mean, it's cute that you actually seem to think that America invented freedom or something, and is somehow the steward of freedom for the rest of the world, but the big boys are talking here. Go wave your flag over in the corner over there, where you can't accidentally hit someone with it and start an international incident that ends up getting a lot of innocent people killed.

Naw, we weren't the first people to be brave. Won't be the last either, as you can see with Taiwan

And the corner is for people like you, who lay there in the fetal position.

[Ghostpanther]

Going to be more than just China pissed off at the US next year. The worm has turned and the gravy train is going to be headed in the opposite direction.

[Deleted]

Oh come on. Taiwan already has freedom, and it already has independence. The only thing they don't have is international recognition of that independence. That's it. In every other respect, it is it's own free country. They'll be fighting and dying for recognition, and in the end lose both their freedom and independence.

You all seriously need to stop pretending like Taiwan is some sort of oppressed state yearning for freedom. I've lived there, and all this Braveheart stuff is really, really misplaced.



The only ones threatening all three of those are people who want to risk a conflict with China.

For someone that's trying to talk about the intricacies of diplomacy you sure don't seem understand why being internationally accepted would be extremely important.

I understand that conflict of any nature scares you, which is fine. Luckily for people like you there's people who will fight.

[alexw]

Either way, it would benefit us to make as many friends as possible. The past two administrations have wreaked havoc on our foreign relations.

To the Chinese Government, stop acting like a small child and get the fuck over it.

This isn't making friends this is pissing off everyone who isn't Taiwan. There's a global understanding between all nations vis a vis the Taiwan and China relationship. It basically boils down to "The first rule of Taiwanese independence is you don't talk about Taiwanese independence.

It allows Taiwan to be independent without raising international tensions that might lead to war. Now along comes Trump the idiot in waiting who not having a clue on what he is doing, goes and upsets that balance. This causes problems for not only China but everyone else in the region and worldwide any country which interacts with those two nations.

All it will do is anger the international community that in no shape or form wants to see conflict between Taiwan and China. There wasn't any need for this and no positives for anyone. It was just plain stupid and it will be recognized as such.

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Going to be more than just China pissed off at the US next year. The worm has turned and the gravy train is going to be headed in the opposite direction.

Yes the whole world for us electing a complete and total incompetent as president. America shits and they get left the mess in their garden.

But I don't see how that is the slightest bit positive.

[Garnier Fructis]

Why do they have that? Answer that, and you will realize you've proved his point.

Because the KMT got their asses handed to them and fled across the Taiwan Strait, where they managed to fend off the communists for decades.

Which is why his point is even more moot. It would make sense if Taiwan was currently fighting for its freedom and independence. But that has already fucking happened.

For someone that's trying to talk about the intricacies of diplomacy you sure don't seem understand why being internationally accepted would be extremely important.

I understand that conflict of any nature scares you, which is fine. Luckily for people like you there's people who will fight.

I'm not against conflicts that have a good reason. I'm against stupid conflict for no reason. Enlighten me as to why it's extremely important for Taiwan to be internationally accepted. Because I've lived there, and we did are still doing just fine.

International relations and China are things that basically don't pop up in daily life until it's election time or some mainland tourist does something stupid and we get 15 minutes of news about it. That's how unimportant it is. Official independence is and has been a game for the KMT, the DPP and the PRC to play. The whole thing is Kabuki Theater.

[Tsar Bomba]

Because the KMT got their asses handed to them and fled across the Taiwan Strait, where they managed to fend off the communists for decades.

Which is why his point is even more moot. It would make sense if Taiwan was currently fighting for its freedom and independence. But that has already fucking happened

Taiwan only exists because Truman did some massive Naval dick hanging in the South Pacific circa 1950-51. The Chinese were scared that a full scale invasion of Taiwan would trigger American reprisal. It only exists as a free and prosperous (compared to the Chinese) nation, because of the American threat. His point was that the independence of peoples through history is/has been garnered through bloodshed or the threat of bloodshed. Taiwan proves his point exactly.

[Garnier Fructis]

Taiwan proves his point exactly.

Insofar as his point was a history lesson, yes.

But as a reflection of the current reality? No.

[Nadiru]

Insofar as his point was a history lesson, yes.

But as a reflection of the current reality? No.

If it's not a reflection of the current reality, then here's a question: if the US publicly disavowed all former relations and alliances to Taiwan, would China's timetable for reintegration be moved up? Because under your absurd reckoning, China wouldn't react to such an event because Taiwan is basically "just independent" now.

[Garnier Fructis]

If it's not a reflection of the current reality, then here's a question: if the US publicly disavowed all former relations and alliances to Taiwan, would China's timetable for reintegration be moved up? Because under your absurd reckoning, China wouldn't react to such an event because Taiwan is basically "just independent" now.

'If the politics of the region radically change, then your reasoning...'

I'm not going to take you seriously if you apply my description of the status quo to a decidedly not status quo case and then call it absurd. That's disingenuous and you know it.

[Nadiru]

'If the politics of the region radically change, then your reasoning...'

I'm not going to take you seriously if you apply my description of the status quo to a decidedly not status quo case and then call it absurd. That's disingenuous and you know it.

Insofar as I can tell, you perceive Trump as a changer of the status quo with regards to Sino-Taiwan relations. So your reasoning is flawed if you accept that Trump is, or even might change the status quo.

[Garnier Fructis]

Insofar as I can tell, you perceive Trump as a changer of the status quo with regards to Sino-Taiwan relations. So your reasoning is flawed if you accept that Trump is, or even might change the status quo.

Perhaps you haven't been following the conversation, but I've pretty much spent the last few pages explaining why it is not in Taiwan's interest for the status quo to change, since we had an onslaught of idiots who apparently think Taiwan is currently oppressed or something.

I've been describing the status quo and why it's totally fine for Taiwan, and why changing it would be terrible. Considering that my argument hasn't been about whether or not it would actually change, you're basically just continuing to respond with things that are tangential to my point.

[Nadiru]

Perhaps you haven't been following the conversation, but I've pretty much spent the last few pages explaining why it is not in Taiwan's interest for the status quo to change, since we had an onslaught of idiots who apparently think Taiwan is currently oppressed or something.

I've been describing the status quo and why it's totally fine for Taiwan, and why changing it would be terrible. Considering that my argument hasn't been about whether or not it would actually change, you're basically just continuing to respond with things that are tangential to my point.

Don't get me wrong, Taiwan would probably be rendered uninhabitable if China decided it wanted it badly enough (or didn't want Taiwan to exist badly enough) and the stakes for the US are so low that there's a big credibility issue there. But if there were two countries where the US opinion should be reversed, it really deserves to be those two countries.

[Altariaz]

It's good to see the USA finally standing up for freedom, after the shameful and pathetic Obama years. The Chinese are the aggressive antagonists here: They have no legitinate claim on Tiawan, and should leave the people alone.

[CostinR]

National Interest has a superb article on the issue.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...erything-18605

Also the hill explains:

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blo...end-with-china

[Macaquerie]

Perhaps you haven't been following the conversation, but I've pretty much spent the last few pages explaining why it is not in Taiwan's interest for the status quo to change, since we had an onslaught of idiots who apparently think Taiwan is currently oppressed or something.

I've been describing the status quo and why it's totally fine for Taiwan, and why changing it would be terrible. Considering that my argument hasn't been about whether or not it would actually change, you're basically just continuing to respond with things that are tangential to my point.

In a way, since Taiwan's very existence as an independent country sort of relies on people not thinking or talking about it too much, it shouldn't be all that surprising that people aren't very informed about it. Still though, it's curious that Trump supporters are now all of a sudden taking such a strong stance on this. Activists in Taiwan and Hong Kong are for the most part young, naive, and idealistic, and their focus is less on the authoritarian Chinese regime, which doesn't have much influence on their lives anyway, and more on identity politics, like whether Taiwan and China have intrinsically different cultures, or if being a Hong Konger means you're Chinese, British (lol), or something else entiretly. That is to say, they pretty much exactly fit the PC/SJW mold, and their opponents are much the same as well - poor, uneducated Chinese farmers who think these stupid kids would just shut up already.

[DJ117]

Fuck China. They need to be isolated and shutdown before we through our "Made in china" create a new USSR that we can't stop.