I like to raid - I do not like beeing forced to do other content to be viable

[Egregious]

Find a new group to raid with then.

You want to gut others content because your group makes Mythic+ farming a requirement. How about........No. Mythic+ is to 5man groups like raiding is to you. Nether is required, Nothing in WoW is required.

You have 3 simple options.

1) leave wow
2) leave your raid group
3) Deal with it.

The game should have never been catered around a small % of players and its a good thing legion fixed this. Now people can quest,do 5mans or hell even LFR and get good gear. Those who try to min/max need to accept they will have to do more then raiding or just stop playing the dam game.

I never said I wanted to gut content, why do all casuals think that for systems in the game not to punish raiding they have to somehow gut everything? It's ludicrous to think that. I just want them to find a way to make it less of a burden if you're a progression raider.

I thought I explicitly stated that, outside of the groups of people who offer raiding at the level I enjoy, I don't want to raid with people who are essentially "bads." I know it may seem like an obvious choice to just move guilds... but then I wouldn't get the thing I wanted out of raiding. I don't raid to amuse myself.

I already did option 1. And, as a 12 year veteran of this game, I am fucking mad I had to do it and I will still voice my opinion on how I think they game should be.

[ShiyoKozuki]

BiS gear should absolutely not come from 5 man dungeons. The top shelf PvE gear should always be from raiding.

Why?
Raiding is a dying thing, especially TWENTY PERSON raids. We need to move on already.

[Keristrasza]

I keep seeing this word "forced" or "Mandatory" being flung around and still cannot wrap my head around the notion that you are being forced into anything. Personal choice =/= Force. Let me explain before anyone screams that there is no choice. I am going to be using the generalized use of "you" not the personal use of it when explaining this.

As a raider, you want to be the best. You want to go out and top meters, push the hardest content, and be the absolute best you can possibly be. That means you made the conscious choice to do what ever it took to achieve that goal, you would do any content for even a small sniff of an upgrade. As a raider you would even do the LFR if it meant a possible upgrade to another item if you didn't get it in your preferred content.

Because of THAT personal choice, the desire to do anything to achieve a set goal is not forced. Blizzard has placed content for everyone, and the only person to be blamed for "too much to do" is not blizzard but the raider who feels "forced" ... but Its not forced. No one, not blizzard, not the raid leader, and surely no natural or unnatural energy in the world is breaking anyone's arms to do this content but yourself. Yes I have heard "but my raid leader would kick me if I don't preform well!" again, still a choice to accommodate them. Its a conscious personal desire to "be the best" and no amount of excuses will change that fact. The day people decide it is not worth the hassle is the day this will no longer be a problem.

Now it WOULD be forced if say, blizzard gated the raid you want to do behind the content you didn't want to do. To say you had to do 200 world quests, and 50 Mythic dungeons OR 10 Mythic+ Dungeons before you could even LOOK at the raid. Then yes, it would be forced and anyone who raided would have a reason to be angry. That would be unfair, but this scenario is not the case.

[mage21]

Why?
Raiding is a dying thing, especially TWENTY PERSON raids. We need to move on already.

I think raiding is the pinnacle of PvE achievement. It requires many more people to cooperate, and the fights are, for the most part, more complicated and longer-lasting. It's an MMO staple.

The paradigm in which you use 5 man dungeons to gear up for raiding was a good one. I'm not against Mythic + content, I simply don't believe in what it has become, where you could simply eschew raiding altogether and simply spam Mythic + and be better-geared (ilvl-wise and stat-wise) than a Mythic raider.

[kamuimac]

I think raiding is the pinnacle of PvE achievement. It requires many more people to cooperate, and the fights are, for the most part, more complicated and longer-lasting. It's an MMO staple.

The paradigm in which you use 5 man dungeons to gear up for raiding was a good one. I'm not against Mythic + content, I simply don't believe in what it has become, where you could simply eschew raiding altogether and simply spam Mythic + and be better-geared (ilvl-wise and stat-wise) than a Mythic raider.

clearly it wasnt if they couldnt beat the magical 15-20 % barrier even after removal of any other content in game like in WoD - face it it doesnt matter that you belive hard facts are playerbase do not want to raid. the end.

[lardaoc]

They could simply implement a npc inside every raid which after you cleared the instance allows you to redo it without loot but instead give tokens which allow you to gain x ilvl on your gear. Every time you reset the instance the bosses get stronger just like mythic+ 5mans... obviously you have to limit the amount of ilvl you can gain but that would help somewhat if you only want to raid...

[MoanaLisa]

clearly it wasnt if they couldnt beat the magical 15-20 % barrier even after removal of any other content in game like in WoD - face it it doesnt matter that you belive hard facts are playerbase do not want to raid. the end.

This is actually a valid point. Warlords was pretty much designed to direct everyone possible into raids. It was a bet that Blizzard made that if people sampled what they view as their best content and design it would pay off. It didn't of course and Legion is a direct result of that.

It's really clear that a decision was made early on that non-raiders--still about 2 out of every 3 players if you don't count Raid Finder--had to have something to do and for group content that meant keeping dungeons relevant. So here we are. Solo players have a lot to do with the WQ system--at least a much greater variety of things to do than they ever had with traditional dailies--and small groups of friends can run dungeons as much or as little as they wish and find progression there. It's a much better balanced design for content but the elimination of raid-or-leave design as the end path for end game is going to require the raiding community to make adjustments. They would be well-advised to think about becoming more inclusive and less concerned with keeping out the riff-raff and openly saying so.

[Wilfire]

Let's take a loot at raider gameplay in WoD and compare it with Legion (assuming 4 hours playtime on raid days and 1 hour on off-days)

WoD raider gameplay:

- Log in
- Do Garrison stuff
- Free time! Do old content, duel in Warspear, queue for some arenas, collect transmog sets, complete old achievements, etc.
- Raid time

Legion raider gameplay:

- Log in
- Grind casual content (WQs, professions, M+)
- No free time
- Raid time

Pretty obvious why raiders dislike Legion.

[mingarrubia]

Let's take a loot at raider gameplay in WoD and compare it with Legion (assuming 4 hours playtime on raid days and 1 hour on off-days)

WoD raider gameplay:

- Log in
- Do Garrison stuff
- Free time! Do old content, duel in Warspear, queue for some arenas, collect transmog sets, complete old achievements, etc.
- Raid time

Legion raider gameplay:

- Log in
- Grind casual content (WQs, professions, M+)
- No free time
- Raid time

Pretty obvious why raiders dislike Legion.

Honestly WoD's gameplay should never have happened. There's a reason why the game is called World of Warcraft (supposedly an MMO-RPG), and not Warcraft Raiding Simulator.

[segara82]

Well, i understand the frustration of both sides, so i'd simply suggest to make both mythic raids and mythic+ dungeons drop gear of the same ilvl and level of power. You know, an alternative to each other and none better/worse than the other lootwise.
Sadly that is currently not the case and results (among other things) in ... what, 3-4 different threads here bitching about m+, legendaries and such?

[cFortyfive]

Well, i understand the frustration of both sides, so i'd simply suggest to make both mythic raids and mythic+ dungeons drop gear of the same ilvl and level of power. You know, an alternative to each other and none better/worse than the other lootwise.

You can't have an actual alternative as long as one mode is spammable and requires the capabilities of a retarded monkey.

[KaPe]

You can't have an actual alternative as long as one mode is spammable and requires the capabilities of a retarded monkey.

"Retarded monkey" part is only true for low level M+... which is part of the problem. Ones that actually require some skill and gear aren't worth it. Better to three chest something easy and hope for Titanforged loot, than spend a lot of time in 10+ and count on weekly loot box. Maw of Soul spamming is the epitome of this. Shorter and easier than any other dungeon - thus barely affected by afixes - while offering the same rewards. Meanwhile, HoV, CoS or BRH are pretty much dead keys, way too much effort for the same rewards.

Come to think of it, early on people complained about Mythic+ only dropping two pieces of loot instead of five, which they used to do back in beta. Imagine if that system was still in place.

It's possible that there are some hidden modifiers in place which are suposed to make this situation better. Perhaps raid loot has higher Titanforged chance or more legendaries. No one knows really, but even if it is true, the sheer amount of M+ one can do in comparison to raid bosses is incomparable.

And that's not even getting into AP. The very least they could do is to make raid bosses drop AP tokens 100% of time. A single M+ run is worth more than Mythic boss kill - except for something like +3, I guess.

[juhi]

Although I disagree you aren't really forced to grind AP (case in point I've been messing about with alts ignoring my main who's sitting pretty at 30 traits unlocked and I'm still over halfway to the next trait) though I can understand if your guild might be strict about it. You just have to find your balance in the hunt for AP. I mean what, it's usually like around 10 WQs up at a time with AP for rewards isn't there? So do the ones that contribute to your emissary reward for the day as well as the one or two that drop the rewards with high amounts of AP at your AR level (which I assume is around 15-16 atm). Why grind multiple LFD runs if you don't like playing with other people you don't know? Just do the one a day and be done with it. After all the returns on AP after that point aren't worthwhile unless you have 20+ AR research done. As for M+ dungeons, you are definitely not forced to run them for gear.



So Mythic 15+ isn't also considered the hardest content in the game? Wow look at all these people that complete Mythic 15 dungeons on a regular basis. /sarc Though Shammy does have a point. People were complaining about raiding prep gear being locked behind Rep grinds in MoP so Blizzard took that feedback and made sure initially that there weren't any worthwhile rewards from Rep Grinds in WoD and additionally removed all quests that contributed to Rep Grinds and instead stuck all the potential rewards in the Garrison system.

dude. im out played now. i cant even raid with guild. theyr all have legendarys more than 1 and the bis one, and i have nohting.. !
this is really a shame we cant normally play the game because of a item. in mythic + dungeons ppl is not accepting u without legendary
im really done. even the guy who is not even doing 2 m+ each day have 3 legendarys and 1 bis. and im farming all days got nothing.
shame on u blizzard with this 100% troll system

note : Make a lvl 200 Mythic plus or a unkillable boss who is giving 1 legendary if we didnt do it. u can Blame us..
i have too add this part too prove the Troll blizzard system.
someone in our guild Got neck legendary 2 times. that means he had a neck and he wons another 1 !!!
DUDE THIS SYSTEM IS SO NICE

[cFortyfive]

Come to think of it, early on people complained about Mythic+ only dropping two pieces of loot instead of five, which they used to do back in beta. Imagine if that system was still in place.

Well it was pretty obvious to begin with it was broken as fuck. I agree though it's certainly not worth it to do 15s - it's not even worth it to do 12s although that's back again in monkey territory. AP and loot wise it really is no question as you said even if those modifiers exist and once you factor in that mythic bosses don't just die

[Eapoe]

This is actually a valid point. Warlords was pretty much designed to direct everyone possible into raids. It was a bet that Blizzard made that if people sampled what they view as their best content and design it would pay off. It didn't of course and Legion is a direct result of that.

It's really clear that a decision was made early on that non-raiders--still about 2 out of every 3 players if you don't count Raid Finder--had to have something to do and for group content that meant keeping dungeons relevant. So here we are. Solo players have a lot to do with the WQ system--at least a much greater variety of things to do than they ever had with traditional dailies--and small groups of friends can run dungeons as much or as little as they wish and find progression there. It's a much better balanced design for content but the elimination of raid-or-leave design as the end path for end game is going to require the raiding community to make adjustments. They would be well-advised to think about becoming more inclusive and less concerned with keeping out the riff-raff and openly saying so.

While a true statement, and I think it's good to have things for a more casual/solo playstyle, it's safe to say the system is not perfect. It's difficult to make a game that appeals to, and appeases, everyone (simply look at the flight issue for a great example). The problem lies in the fact that while the system is great for a lot of players, it's a chore for the more hardcore mindset of players. While that might only apply to a 15-20% player base, keep in mind Blizzard still finds these people important enough to decide mechanics, tuning, and gameplay around. Maybe time will shift this to m+ crawlers; but, who can know right now?
Something to also consider, with the release of NH, m+ may very well become devalued to a degree. Yes, people will still want them for AP and legendary chance grinds; however, as tier is released as well as the possibility of BiS trinkets and offpieces at a much more easier to obtain ilvl, it's very possible most of the higher end raiders (heroic to mythic) will start focusing more on a 2-7 keystone level and higher m+ clears will be much rarer and less of a concern where gear is from.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, i understand the frustration of both sides, so i'd simply suggest to make both mythic raids and mythic+ dungeons drop gear of the same ilvl and level of power. You know, an alternative to each other and none better/worse than the other lootwise.
Sadly that is currently not the case and results (among other things) in ... what, 3-4 different threads here bitching about m+, legendaries and such?

There have been multiple suggestions to combat the raid or m+ mentality. Some of these range from a weekly AP cap (within reason of course) to no legendary items dropping in m+, to a seperate loot table in the vein of pvp vs pve items, where in a raid the gear is equalized and that 895 from a dungeon gets tuned down to an 875, where an 895 from a raid stays an 895 for the raid.

[madmonarch]

Let's take a loot at raider gameplay in WoD and compare it with Legion (assuming 4 hours playtime on raid days and 1 hour on off-days)

WoD raider gameplay:

- Log in
- Do Garrison stuff
- Free time! Do old content, duel in Warspear, queue for some arenas, collect transmog sets, complete old achievements, etc.
- Raid time

Legion raider gameplay:

- Log in
- Grind casual content (WQs, professions, M+)
- No free time
- Raid time

Pretty obvious why raiders dislike Legion.

Totally this. And it's valid not for wod alone. I started playing in wotlk and every expansion til Legion I've had some (more or less) free time ingame to do all I wanted: old content and achievements, pet battles, pvp, fishing, running in circles around Dalaran and so on. I spent farming or spamming dailies 1 month max. Now I feel urged to grind more ap and armor pieces in hope for TF to not fall back three month into expansion, and I don't see the end to this, no wrapping up. I have the same family and kid, the same job and the same amount of free time at evening to play.

[Wilfire]

Totally this. And it's valid not for wod alone. I started playing in wotlk and every expansion til Legion I've had some (more or less) free time ingame to do all I wanted: old content and achievements, pet battles, pvp, fishing, running in circles around Dalaran and so on. I spent farming or spamming dailies 1 month max. Now I feel urged to grind more ap and armor pieces in hope for TF to not fall back three month into expansion, and I don't see the end to this, no wrapping up. I have the same family and kid, the same job and the same amount of free time at evening to play.

The most baffling thing is that instead of making raiding more accessible for casuals, Blizzard instead just decides to reward them for spamming the same easy content over and over again. Raiding IS the endgame of WoW and has been for the past 12 years.

[Dysheki]

Honestly WoD's gameplay should never have happened. There's a reason why the game is called World of Warcraft (supposedly an MMO-RPG), and not Warcraft Raiding Simulator.

Yeah, except most raiders don't care about a lot of that world. We like to raid. That's it.

I've been raiding since Wrath (started in BC casually), but this is the first time as a raider I've been deluged with things to do outside of raid to be prepared for a raid. It is without a doubt the most raider unfriendly expansion in a long while. I'd venture to say even worse than all of the BC attunements. At least with the attunements when you finished them they were done. The AP grind is here to stay. The wide range of ilvls for items is here to stay. It's really kind of sad to see this happen but I have already put in my notice that I'm done raiding. I know others in my guild that feel the same way (there were some that saw the writing on the wall and quit before the expansion, but I'm stubborn and stuck it out).

You can have all the casual grinding you want. I don't care. I just don't want it forced on raiders.

[mingarrubia]

I've been raiding since Wrath (started in BC casually), but this is the first time as a raider I've been deluged with things to do outside of raid to be prepared for a raid. It is without a doubt the most raider unfriendly expansion in a long while.

Nah, it's just that WoD spoiled raid-loggers to an unprecedented extent. It was time to restore some balance. You'll all get used to it sooner or later.

[AeneasBK]

I'm not reading 41 pages but is it full of people whos performance is utterly mediocre moaning about how Blizzard are the worst game designers ever because there is the option to do 20 hours of grinding for a 1% increase that will actually only be a 0.3% incerease because they mostly achieve about 30% of their potential?

Most of these threads are.

"ERMERGERD I DON'T WANNA FARM GOLDERN LOTUS REP FOR 2 MONTHS JUST TO GET A 496 iLVL ITEM BEFORE I START RAIDING!"

Every terrible raider in MoP

Unless you're realistically racing (i.e. there are other guilds realistically competing with you) - and I'm not denying that these races exist on a proportion of the servers - then every OPTIONAL content to progress your character is OPTIONAL. And if you *are* racing, then well, it's up to you how committed you are; don't sit here and claim you're passionate about it but can't be bothered to do it or don't have time because those statements are at odds; it's a case of how much you care

You could try just playing better for an X% increase in output without any grinding Or work some extra hours at work and upgradwe your hardware. There are so many options out there really

- - - Updated - - -

The most baffling thing is that instead of making raiding more accessible for casuals, Blizzard instead just decides to reward them for spamming the same easy content over and over again. Raiding IS the endgame of WoW and has been for the past 12 years.

Raiding AND PvP.