[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Adramelch]

Secondary changes are largely complete. There is tuning left to be done to compensate for these changes. I can't post links but I will post a quote from Lore about giving specific classes/specs adjustments to compensate power loss with the secondary stat changes.


"As you might expect, these changes will affect some classes more strongly than others. More overall character power will come from your primary stats than it did before, so all of your abilities will hit harder, even if they crit less or happen less frequently. Additionally, as we continue tuning for Patch 7.1.5, we’ll make adjustments as necessary on a spec-by-spec basis."

It is very "sensible" to expect a small change like 5-7% cast time buff to lunar strike/solar wrath to offset the power loss of losing about 5% haste.

So that you read in the post but that: "The next build will have changes that increase the total amount of stats given by all items above level 800 to account for this gap, such that the overall power of your equipped items should be about the same (if not slightly higher) than it is currently in 7.1. " you don't?

[Mewncriket]

So that you read in the post but that: "The next build will have changes that increase the total amount of stats given by all items above level 800 to account for this gap, such that the overall power of your equipped items should be about the same (if not slightly higher) than it is currently in 7.1. " you don't?

I read that part too. If you have been paying attention you would understand that one of the reasons a lot of balance druids are so concerned with is not being able to meet haste breakpoints. Not being able to meet haste breakpoints makes parts of the spec clunkier regardless of damage. The way to ensure we don't lose power by losing breakpoints is to reduce cast time on the spells we rely on breakpoints for. You're commenting on something you don't understand.

[MV Kaa]

These forums are very hostile, whereas the druid discord is not. Discord has both Theorycrafting and "Feely-crafting," whereas MMO-C is normally just users bickering at each other.

Yea not true. Someone called someone else a morn and a woman, he got warned by some SJW for calling someone a woman, but a not a moron.

[Adramelch]

I read that part too. If you have been paying attention you would understand that one of the reasons a lot of balance druids are so concerned with is not being able to meet haste breakpoints. Not being able to meet haste breakpoints makes parts of the spec clunkier regardless of damage. The way to ensure we don't lose power by losing breakpoints is to reduce cast time on the spells we rely on breakpoints for. You're commenting on something you don't understand.

And the "changes that increase the total amount of stats given by all items" couldn't possibly solve this? I'm not saying they will (and it probably won't fully), but it still remains to be seen.

Also, my quote was because you said "Secondary changes are largely complete". So stop trying to be a smartass, proving Cyous' comment to be accurate in the process.

PS: For what it's worth, the set pieces having garbage stats on them (only chest has haste and it's the lesser stat there) is a bigger concern for the ED holders (cause only there you have breakpoints).

[Mewncriket]

And the "changes that increase the total amount of stats given by all items" couldn't possibly solve this? I'm not saying they will, but it still remains to be seen.

Also, my quote was because you said "Secondary changes are largely complete". So stop trying to be a smartass, proving Cyous' comment to be accurate in the process.

Don't act high and mighty, you were the on who left a snarky reply on a comment you were not involved in. What I meant by the changes largely being complete is in terms of rating and percentages it seems to be thought out. The tuning that follows to adjust for the loss in real stats is not complete.

An increase in stats is unlikely to fix the problem I have described. That is unless the stats they are increasing are secondary stats which seems pointless given the changes. The problem comes from not being able to achieve enough haste rating with the changes to achieve certain breakpoints. If we lose damage because our spells aren't hitting as hard/Critting as often you can adjust that easily with something like a stat increase. If we are losing damage because we can't cast the spells we need to cast then you have to adjust cast time as that is where the problem originates.

[Adramelch]

The thing is, the 30% breakpoint is rather easily achievable even as things are now on PTR, so I wouldn't just assume they want to fix something there. As I mentioned, the main concern for many people with ED (the breakpoints are irrelevant for anyone else) is with regards to the horribly itemised tier pieces.

[Mewncriket]

The thing is, the 30% breakpoint is rather easily achievable even as things are now on PTR, so I wouldn't just assume they want to fix something there. As I mentioned, the main concern for many people with ED (the breakpoints are irrelevant for anyone else) is with regards to the horribly itemised tier pieces.

I'm not sure if you have played around on the PTR but I wouldn't describe meeting 30% as easy. Both rings on PTR gave me over 1900 haste rating each and my neck gave me about 600 (low). I was still sitting at 28.5% haste. Sure you could sell out with a full haste roll Boe neck and a haste stat stick trinket but having to make sacrifices in gear for a secondary stat is precisely what they are trying to eliminate.

You already brought up the poor tier itemization on the tier. Currently if you are going to equip 4 pieces of tier you will have to completely sacrifice three items with haste on it. This makes the 30% breakpoint feel almost unobtainable especially if you are using a legendary without haste on it.

Also just because the haste breakpoints only matter for those with ED does not make the issue any less important. Until some sort of change(s) happen to how ED works it will always be used if available. If something is always going to be used and will eventually be obtained by all playing the class it is important that it continue to feel good to play.

[MV Kaa]

I'm not sure if you have played around on the PTR but I wouldn't describe meeting 30% as easy. Both rings on PTR gave me over 1900 haste rating each and my neck gave me about 600 (low). I was still sitting at 28.5% haste. Sure you could sell out with a full haste roll Boe neck and a haste stat stick trinket but having to make sacrifices in gear for a secondary stat is precisely what they are trying to eliminate.

You already brought up the poor tier itemization on the tier. Currently if you are going to equip 4 pieces of tier you will have to completely sacrifice three items with haste on it. This makes the 30% breakpoint feel almost unobtainable especially if you are using a legendary without haste on it.

Also just because the haste breakpoints only matter for those with ED does not make the issue any less important. Until some sort of change(s) happen to how ED works it will always be used if available. If something is always going to be used and will eventually be obtained by all playing the class it is important that it continue to feel good to play.

I only need 1 haste trinket to make the breakpoint and they still have not buffed the stats on all gear over 800 like they said they will be doing. I put on my tier and swarmhive trinket and I have 31% haste, not counting food buff, not counting the buff that will soon be coming. The secondary stat nerf hurts us yes, but it pays off when you have 895+ gear

[Adramelch]

I'm not sure if you have played around on the PTR but I wouldn't describe meeting 30% as easy. Both rings on PTR gave me over 1900 haste rating each and my neck gave me about 600 (low). I was still sitting at 28.5% haste. Sure you could sell out with a full haste roll Boe neck and a haste stat stick trinket but having to make sacrifices in gear for a secondary stat is precisely what they are trying to eliminate.

You already brought up the poor tier itemization on the tier. Currently if you are going to equip 4 pieces of tier you will have to completely sacrifice three items with haste on it. This makes the 30% breakpoint feel almost unobtainable especially if you are using a legendary without haste on it.

Also just because the haste breakpoints only matter for those with ED does not make the issue any less important. Until some sort of change(s) happen to how ED works it will always be used if available. If something is always going to be used and will eventually be obtained by all playing the class it is important that it continue to feel good to play.

A proper haste neck (as in with haste as the main stat) would put you above 30%. I don't think it's that unreasonable to be honest. I just don't think Blizzard cares all that much for the 30% breakpoint if I'm honest. But the set pieces having shit itemization for like 3 out of the 4 specs is a much more pressing issue, that covers the majority of the playerbase and every single boomkin.

[Mewncriket]

A proper haste neck (as in with haste as the main stat) would put you above 30%. I don't think it's that unreasonable to be honest. I just don't think Blizzard cares all that much for the 30% breakpoint if I'm honest. But the set pieces having shit itemization for like 3 out of the 4 specs is a much more pressing issue, that covers the majority of the playerbase and every single boomkin.

It's less about Blizzard caring about balance druid ( or any class ) breakpoints. It's more about the emphasis Blizzard put on ensuring that player power should not feel nerfed at all. It seems the devs are so concerned with not lowering player power they would err on the side of caution and even make players slightly more powerful. Blizzard wants to make sure that when they make picking a upgrade more intuitive they do not sacrifice player power at all. They want secondary stats to matter less but they want everything else to feel the same. If they change secondary stats and all balance druids using their BiS rotation are now weaker because of these secondary changes, they have failed their goal. If something as small as a 5% adjustment to the cast time of the spells that need breakpoints can keep the devs from failing their goal I think they will consider it.

This would also take some of the pressure off of the devs to completely remake a tier set. I honestly think asking for a 5% adjustment in cast times to two spells is a lot more feasible than asking a dev team to completely remake a tier to better favor one of four specializations for a class.

[Adramelch]

This would also take some of the pressure off of the devs to completely remake a tier set. I honestly think asking for a 5% adjustment in cast times to two spells is a lot more feasible than asking a dev team to completely remake a tier to better favor one of four specializations for a class.

Changing the stats on a tier set (in favour of 2 of the 4 specializations for what it's worth - and ofc not everything should have haste on it) surely is much less of a hassle than the 5% you want that actively affects class balance (even if slightly).

Also, just prior experience tells me they just wouldn't do something like that.

[Cyous]

Yea not true. Someone called someone else a morn and a woman, he got warned by some SJW for calling someone a woman, but a not a moron.

MMO-C, in general, is people bickering at each other. Sorta how noxxic has a reputation for being awful, even with the devs, MMO-C has a bad rep too.

[Deleted]

they should just increase the buff duration of ED so we dont need that high haste

[Bugg]

What is the motivation for the nerf of Displacer beast?
I'm already free frag in PvP if a rogue / cat / warr / whateva jumps me....

I'm starting to envy the shammies... are there different Blizzard teams handling the tweaks for classes?

[Irefusetodie]

What is the motivation for the nerf of Displacer beast?
I'm already free frag in PvP if a rogue / cat / warr / whateva jumps me....

I'm starting to envy the shammies... are there different Blizzard teams handling the tweaks for classes?

Every other talent choice in the tier is shit, comparatively, so instead of making said talents not shit they decided to nerf Displacer Beast in a way that we'll continue taking it. Makes a ton of sense, I know.

[Bugg]

Maybe Wild charge -> our of moonkin -> fly to ally?
Doesn't look simple :/

[Irefusetodie]

Maybe Wild charge -> our of moonkin -> fly to ally?
Doesn't look simple :/

Wild Charge itself isn't terrible. It's just not a blink.

[Deleted]

These forums are very hostile, whereas the druid discord is not. Discord has both Theorycrafting and "Feely-crafting," whereas MMO-C is normally just users bickering at each other.

Hey gotta link to this Discord haven for boomkins?

[huth]

Wild Charge itself isn't terrible. It's just not a blink.

Yeah, there's a big difference between quickly jumping through the fire and simply teleporting over it.

[Myztikrice]

Disregarding speedwise it also breaks roots