Voting in US - What's the point?

[Palizangetsu]

All of those things would improve their economies and therefore their tax payments in the long run.

No many of these things are federally subsidized and wouldn't improve their economies.

[Spectral]

That says nothing about the vote system being used.

It says that you may or may not actually be voting for a policy or candidate; in the case of the Presidency, it turns out that you're actually voting for EC members. What's irritating is that everyone knows this and people mostly don't care very much until their candidate loses. Changing this could easily have been done over the last 16 years if anyone gave much of a shit, but our hypocritical politicians only care when they don't believe they have a "blue wall".

[NineSpine]

The point is all of the things you mentioned are not directly done by the president alone they are done with the cooperation of your local elected officials and I never said it didn't matter but it wasn't even Eisenhower's idea and most of the planning went in before Eisenhower became president. There is very little a president could do alone to affect the lives of the vast majority of people.

The fact that other people and institutions are involved in the processes does not negate or diminish the role of the President. If you think ANYONE would have started the Iraq War, and it's just a coincidence that the architects of it happened to have been pushing for it for a decade beforehand, you don't live in reality.

[Mormolyce]

and has never been tested because its never happened to a point of mattering.

Isn't that what I said?

[NineSpine]

No many of these things are federally subsidized and wouldn't approve their economies.

Yeah you can keep saying that, but when I look at the real world, I see a bunch of economically powerful blue states where those things are the case, and a bunch of failed moocher red states leeching off of those blue states.

[Saucexorzski]

The left should just stop voting since their votes do not matter. Its the best winning strategy aside from the one Hillary used where she blamed all the problems in the country on white folks.

[Spectral]

Yeah you can keep saying that, but when I look at the real world, I see a bunch of economically powerful blue states where those things are the case, and a bunch of failed moocher red states leeching off of those blue states.

Is your position that a proper apportionment of votes would be based on what net-plus tax-paying citizens vote for?

[bladeXcrasher]

Yeah you can keep saying that, but when I look at the real world, I see a bunch of economically powerful blue states where those things are the case, and a bunch of failed moocher red states leeching off of those blue states.

California should get their own water, instead of mooching off other states

[Mormolyce]

It says that you may or may not actually be voting for a policy or candidate; in the case of the Presidency, it turns out that you're actually voting for EC members. What's irritating is that everyone knows this and people mostly don't care very much until their candidate loses. Changing this could easily have been done over the last 16 years if anyone gave much of a shit, but our hypocritical politicians only care when they don't believe they have a "blue wall".

I posted the stats above: the EC is not popular and as far as I can trace back polls, never has been. "Nobody cares" is a load of shit, the problem is that it requires a change to the electoral system on a federal level and we all know how bitter that fight would be. Easily done my fucking ass.

[Spiffums]

It is truly a joke. How is it a democracy when the decision made by majority of the people doesn't count?

Because its a Republic not a Democracy. There is a difference. Anyone who doesn't understand didn't pay attention in Jr High History.

[NineSpine]

Your logic would be to say if your candidate lost your vote didn't count. The electoral college is set up so that the state has a voice, we are the United States, not the United Citizens. States set their policy based on their populace, if you go against the grain of your entire state your wishes will taker back seat to the rest of the populace. It's not that your vote didn't count, it's that your state population disagrees with your position.

This is the whole point of the electoral college, it balances voting power fairly well across a very large diverse group of states. The big point in this election was globalization and how it's gutting the working class of this country while Urban areas get to reap the benefits of it. Should NY and LA decide the path of our country just because a lot of people live there and can't see the because side of current economic trends? Absolutely not. If the democrats had a clue this election they would have hit hard in middle America, they would have torn apart Trumps policies on taking apart trade agreements, the dangers of excessive tariffs on goods, etc... You attack an opponents strengths, not their weaknesses. Clinton didn't even need to campaign in urban areas, if she would have stayed on target and hit Trump supporters with the reality that he can't take apart the system the way he said he would... It would have been a land slide. But she is a shit politician with an equally shitty campaign staff and look where we are.

This whole system is not balancing power well at all. Democrats keep getting more votes for the presidency, the house, and the senate, yet somehow end up repeatedly being out of power. We have some state houses where democrats represent half the voters but Republicans control the states with majorities like 14-3. Republicans have rigged our electoral systems in their favor, partially through relying on economically successful blue states to subsidize their failed states.

[Mormolyce]

true democracy is MOB RULE, you have voting blocks of people who adhere to a hivemind ideology packed up into cities that would decide EVERY president if we didn't have an electoral system

Oh, Florida and Ohio aren't "big cities"? The EC system does NOT stop this. It's just shit.

[NineSpine]

California should get their own water, instead of mooching off other states

California, the sixth largest economy on the planet, which supports not only two of the largest exporting industries in America (tech and entertainment) but also a big chunk of agriculture as well, all while only getting 79 cents on the dollar for the federal taxes it pays? Is that the California we are talking about?

[NineSpine]

Because its a Republic not a Democracy. There is a difference. Anyone who doesn't understand didn't pay attention in Jr High History.

Those of who actually paid attention, as opposed to those of us who read facebook memes and confuse it for education, know that the definition of democracy includes any system where the representatives are elected by the people, even if totally indirectly. We also know that when the founders talked about "democracy" they meant "direct democracy" because the definition has changed over time to include indirect democracy as a form of democracy. Maybe you should crack a fucking book instead of telling other people to do so.

[Palizangetsu]

Yeah you can keep saying that, but when I look at the real world, I see a bunch of economically powerful blue states where those things are the case, and a bunch of failed moocher red states leeching off of those blue states.

You are comparing different economies a state such as NY doesn't generate money using the same process as a state such as Iowa they will never be the same economically there is no way they would improve an economy like Iowa's.

[Tico]

I'm european so I don't have any personal experience, but from outside point of view it seems to me that US voting is just a show they put up to pretend democracy.

Yes, it seems so pretty much from Europe.

[NineSpine]

Dunno about you, and maybe this says more about the school system than anything else, but even through high school history not once was the US ever called anything but a Democracy in my time at school.

If "Republic" was ever even said in the same breath as "United States", it was moreso in an offhanded comment that nobody would ever think important, nor remember to tell the tale about.

You are right, I remember when in school we would stand up every morning and pledge allegiance to the flag, for the democracy.... oh wait, we called it a republic every god damn day.

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You are comparing different economies a state such as NY doesn't generate money using the same process as a state such as Iowa they will never be the same economically there is no way they would improve an economy like Iowa's.

Maybe Iowa should pull itself up by its bootstraps then and stop taking my money. If they want to be economically successful, they should do it by modeling themselves on successful states, not mooching off them.

[Mormolyce]

Because its a Republic not a Democracy. There is a difference. Anyone who doesn't understand didn't pay attention in Jr High History.

No offence but you don't know what the fuck you are talking about and all the people repeating this nonsense need to cut it out.

America is a democracy. Democracy is a very broad term. Most Republics are democratic in one way or another, "democracy" says nothing about how extensive the franchise is or how it is applied. In Australia we don't vote for our Prime Minister directly at all, but we're a democracy (shit, technically we have a fucking Queen). Before black and female suffrage the majority of the US wasn't eligible to vote, and it was a democracy. In ancient Rome you had to be a free man with a certain level of wealth to vote, and it was a democracy. The Greeks chose their rulers by a jury and they "invented" democracy.

And saying it's a Republic, not a Democracy, is like saying "this isn't an apple, it's a fruit".

For the record - a democracy is a pretty vague term for any system where the people rule, through representatives or otherwise, irrespective of how many are enfranchised or through what system. A republic is a sovereign state ruled by elected representatives of the people (rather than a monarch etc). Most (all?) republics are democracies, though some non-republics are also democracies, eg the UK which is technically a constitutional monarchy.

[Palizangetsu]

The fact that other people and institutions are involved in the processes does not negate or diminish the role of the President. If you think ANYONE would have started the Iraq War, and it's just a coincidence that the architects of it happened to have been pushing for it for a decade beforehand, you don't live in reality.

Do I think anyone would have started the war nope and never said that but I am pretty sure anyone would have signed the bill to make our highway system. Also the ware couldn't have been started without the local government backing the president and the local government is what has a huge impact on an individual's life

[NineSpine]

Do I think anyone would have started the war nope and never said that but I am pretty sure anyone would have signed the bill to make our highway system. Also the ware couldn't have been started without the local government backing the president and the local government is what has a huge impact on an individual's life

Good point, I remember all the local governments that forced us into Vietnam and killed tens of thousands of Americans.