A Simple Argument for the Tinker Class

[Ielenia]

Yeah, it got expanded, but it also got diluted because there's no way for the game to keep up with the lore and maintain balance. For example, the Tauren Sunwalkers, Blood Elf Blood Knights, and the Draenei Vindicators should all have different, yet similar spells to the Human paladin. Unfortunately, Blizzard isn't willing to invest the time to do that, so the lore behind those other Paladin groups suffers a bit.

Are you really using gameplay and user interface arguments to justify your idea that "paladin lore got diluted because more races got added"? Really?

Because DKs were almost always portrayed as Humans in WC3 and Orcs in WC2. Expanding it beyond those two races forced Blizzard to come up with reasons why those races were DHs. Also some races simply didn't fit the class. Gnomes being a prime example.

You do know that the Death Knights of World of Warcraft have nothing to do with the units of same name from Warcraft 2 and 3, right? DKs from WC2 were orc souls bound to dead human bodies. DKs from WC3 were embittered paladins who succumbed to their dark emotions before accepting service to the Lich King. The DKs from WoW are a completely new, different breed: souls of heroes of old, who fought and perished in past wars.

When you limit the races of a class it allows Blizzard to make the class more distinct, and enhances the lore behind the class. That's my point.

Making a class "more distinct" has nothing to do with limiting the amount of races that could pick said class, unless race restriction is THE distinction you want for that class.

Well all of that is known at the character selection screen.

You have no idea of the race's voice and animations until you get into the game.

[Teriz]

Mekkatorque looked like a badass in the cinematic

Indeed. A lot of people were pleasantly surprised by how awesome Gelbin was in that clip.

Would be nice to be able to revel in that badassery by being able to play as a Gnome in a mech suit.

Unfortunately we can't.

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Are you really using gameplay and user interface arguments to justify your idea that "paladin lore got diluted because more races got added"? Really?

Gameplay is the player's interaction with the game's lore. If the gameplay isn't matching up to the game's storyline, the player must suspend belief. For example, when I choose a Tauren Paladin, I'm actually choosing a Tauren Sunwalker. The problem is that my Sunwalker is called a Paladin, and he has the exact same abilities as every other Paladin in the game. I as the player have to accept that as a limitation of game design, and pretend that my Tauren is somehow different than other Paladins in the game.

I think we're getting away from the core of this issue. A better question here is why are Druids almost as popular as Hunters despite there being 3 times as many races available for Hunter than for Druid? Keep in mind, Hunter isn't the most popular class in each of its respective races, but in the 4 races where Druids are available, the Druid class is the most popular class by a wide margin.

So what makes the Druid so popular? I would argue that it is its versatility, its uniqueness among the classes, the personal perks that it gives the player, and the personalization based on the character's race.

Druids are the most versatile class in the game. They have 4 specs, and they allow a player to enjoy every playstyle in the game.

Druids are a unique class because they are shape shifters. While other classes have the ability to change form, the core mechanic of the druid class is the ability to turn into something else and perform roles. A very unique characteristic.

Druids got free mounts, their own flight form, and even a swimming form. Those were pretty awesome perks for the class in the early days of WoW. Though those perks have been reduced, it's still pretty cool to jump off a cliff, transform into a bird and fly away.

Each Druid race gets its own animal forms, adding to overall immersion.

A Goblin/Gnome technology class would have similar advantages that the Druid class has. They would be unique among the classes, they could be versatile (4 specs), via mech suits they could have a unique travel, flight, and swim form, and their devices/machines/mechs would be unique to their individual races.

[Ielenia]

So what makes the Druid so popular? I would argue that it is its versatility, its uniqueness among the classes, the personal perks that it gives the player, and the personalization based on the character's race.

What made is to popular? In my opinion, it wasn't really the customization based on race, or "personal perks". To me, what made it popular was how fun the class was to play, coupled with how versatile it was, having "four specs" (even if the "specs" were somewhat badly designed in the beginning), add in the rich, extensive lore that was being greatly expanded when WoW launched, plus one of the races that could be Druids was the Night Elves, a race that got quite famous during Warcraft 3 for being so different from the other races we were accustomed to.

A Goblin/Gnome technology class would have similar advantages that the Druid class has. They would be unique among the classes,

For being high-tech oriented, their theme would be unique enough. That is not an issue. The issue is: what would be the core of the class' gameplay?

they could be versatile (4 specs),

I sincerely doubt Blizzard is going to add another 4-spec class.

via mech suits they could have a unique travel, flight, and swim form,

It can be rather easily argued that giving that to the tech class would diminish the attractiveness of druids. In my opinion, giving the 'tech class' special abilities to travel in land, air and water won't happen, as it's a staple of the druid now.

and their devices/machines/mechs would be unique to their individual races.

That is something I find it really hard to happen, unless only a small, handful abilities get that treatment, otherwise it severely diminishes the chances of said class getting more races in the future.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Can we knock this off? They aren't adding a fucking Tinker class. Why is this still even being discussed?
Especially in the middle of Legion?

[Thimagryn]

What made is to popular? In my opinion, it wasn't really the customization based on race, or "personal perks". To me, what made it popular was how fun the class was to play, coupled with how versatile it was, having "four specs" (even if the "specs" were somewhat badly designed in the beginning), add in the rich, extensive lore that was being greatly expanded when WoW launched, plus one of the races that could be Druids was the Night Elves, a race that got quite famous during Warcraft 3 for being so different from the other races we were accustomed to.

There's multiple facets to that though. As a massive fan of the Druids of Warcraft 3, I can with confidence say that Druid lore was also butchered to work in WoW. The Night Elf society revolves around a Matriarchal society of female warrior priests, while the males are the scholars and druids. Druidism is at the core of Night Elf culture, and it was always exclusive to them.

World of Warcraft changed this through necessities of gameplay. Metzen even wanted Druids to be Night Elf exclusive, but the game designers overruled it and allowed Tauren to be Druids as well. This precedent was carried further in Cataclysm, further alienating the unique culture that Warcraft 3 created. Furthermore, the allowance of Male Night Elves to be anything other than Druids, and Females being allowed to be Druids goes against their established Warcraft 3 backstory. Gameplay is king.

So even though Warcraft 3 made them famous, they changed a lot in their inclusion in World of Warcraft. Lore supports gameplay, not the other way around.

[Teriz]

What made is to popular? In my opinion, it wasn't really the customization based on race, or "personal perks". To me, what made it popular was how fun the class was to play, coupled with how versatile it was, having "four specs" (even if the "specs" were somewhat badly designed in the beginning), add in the rich, extensive lore that was being greatly expanded when WoW launched, plus one of the races that could be Druids was the Night Elves, a race that got quite famous during Warcraft 3 for being so different from the other races we were accustomed to.

So we agree that it was versatility and extensive lore at least. Let's move on...

For being high-tech oriented, their theme would be unique enough. That is not an issue. The issue is: what would be the core of the class' gameplay?

Since everyone seems to be loving Mekkatorque in his steam suit, and walking around in the Sky Golem, it stands to reason that a class that pilots mechs would be a good way to go. Supporting that is the fact that Goblins and Gnomes have been attached to Steam suits for years, even before the release of WoW.

How would it play?

Option 1: Cooldown based- You ride in the suit for a few seconds ever 1-3 minutes.
Option 2: Resource based- You charge up your resource, summon your suit, wreck stuff, then your suit vanishes.
Option 3: Able to shift in and out of your suit at will, much like Druid forms.

I sincerely doubt Blizzard is going to add another 4-spec class.

If it fits the class, I don't see why they wouldn't.

It can be rather easily argued that giving that to the tech class would diminish the attractiveness of druids. In my opinion, giving the 'tech class' special abilities to travel in land, air and water won't happen, as it's a staple of the druid now.

It can also be easily argued that a technology-based alternative to Druids would be good for the game, and help popularize the newer class.

That is something I find it really hard to happen, unless only a small, handful abilities get that treatment, otherwise it severely diminishes the chances of said class getting more races in the future.

I don't think the possibility of this class being spread to other races is an issue.

[Traveler Voltin]

I chose option 3 which i am designing.
Page 19 has the crappy rough draft

[Rhamses]

Tinker would have to have an expansion themed to match it. Just like the last three classes. Pandaria wasn't too bad because there was a lot of lore we hadn't heard about before and the mogu/mantid helped make the storyline serious.

There's no reason there can't be a Gnome/Goblin expansion. In fact, Blizzard's devs pointed out that there really hasn't been an expansion where they could focus on Gnomes and Goblins. However, you could tell by the way they were talking that they wanted to give those races a spotlight in the future.

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I chose option 3 which i am designing.

I'd prefer option 3 for a tank spec. I think a DPS spec would be better served going with option 2 since that type of gameplay tends to be more fast-paced.

There's also the Divine Steed mechanic. I guess that could be option 4? I'd like to see that used in a DPS spec in conjunction with option 2.

[Nurvus]

So the main reasoning behind not introducing the Tinker class is because it's roll is filled by the engineer profession, right? But in my opinion the two are not one in the same. Take Warriors, for instance. Warrior class fantasy is all about two things: Armor and Weapons. Yet the Warrior doesn't forge their armor and weapons, the Blacksmiths do. A warrior CAN be a blacksmith, but it isn't necessary. The engineers only supply the gear and tools tinkers use and modify, its up to the tinker to use those tools effectively in the heat of battle.

You don't need to go to such a complicated explanation.

Engineers have had all sorts of stuff added to them, and then made unavailable for PvP because of balance reasons.
Engineering has been watered down for balance reasons.
Take every Engineering "concept" that Blizzard deemed unbalanced for competitive environment, add mechs for a Tanking spec, Turrets, etc, and you've got a super flavoured, fun class, who might use Plate, or maybe Mail!

[Zuben]

I think a Tinker class would work if they emphasize its class fantasy to be more operator than designer. Dwarf pilots are operators that specialize in using machinery designed and built by someone else. There's just the question of how to introduce Tinkers into the game, as new classes tend to carry the expansions major theme in their class fantasy. I don't think there can be an expansion centered around tech. Iron Horde was the best chance for it and as we saw, it couldn't carry the expansion to the end.

[Sencha]

Why can't Teriz and Ielenia just discuss in PM? It's the same discussion again and again.

[Vaelorian]

Adding a playable dragon race would be pretty amazing, to be honest. I'd come back to WoW for that.

With all due respect... How old are you? No don't answer that. It is not a fair question from my side. Why? Because dragons or halfdragons are pretty amazing indeed. It is not that I lack imagination. I played D&D for years and have played half dragonlike races or even angels or half demons. The thing why I am opposed to this is that it does not fit in the lore. There have been no precedents for this. Yeah the dragon aspects. Sure. But we cannot all be dragonaspects. And if there have been half dragons around (which I just don't know about) - they are super rare. And so by default cannot be a playercharacter race.

If this would be added, they would need to rewrite the lore or discover a planet populated by dragonkin.

Could work perhaps (the last option) but seriously...

I also would like to add that we have already have an abundance of races and classes. Why bother with more? And then complain about lack of balance... and then complain about the fact that so many classes are "all the same". No shit sherlock... obviously the more classes we get the harder it is to gain balance between classes. Simple fix = "make everything the same"

[Kiradyn]

A mech-riding class sounds cool! I'd definitely roll that, even if its just Goblins and Gnomes.

Divine Steed opened up the possibility of vehicles being used in class-based combat. It would be nice to see Blizzard expand on that with a Tinker class.

[Shammyrock]

I'd also guess new races/classes suffer from people returning to their mains after their subject expansion stops being current to some degree.

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Divine Steed is really just a movement speed increase talent isn't it?

The mount option in New Nagrand is a better example but then that's also really just movement speed rather than the mount actually doing anything in combat.

[Airwaves]

Tinker is fine. As long as all 3 specs are ranged. In fact any new class is fine as long as there are never anymore melee. We have far to many already.

[Kiradyn]

I'd also guess new races/classes suffer from people returning to their mains after their subject expansion stops being current to some degree.

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Divine Steed is really just a movement speed increase talent isn't it?

The mount option in New Nagrand is a better example but then that's also really just movement speed rather than the mount actually doing anything in combat.

I'm pretty sure you can attack while mounted (might be wrong on that). I do know the PvP talent has a knockback when you run through targets and doubles its duration.

[Lochton]

Tinker is fine. As long as all 3 specs are ranged. In fact any new class is fine as long as there are never anymore melee. We have far to many already.

Would rather a mid-way melee/range combo for a Tinker Tank. Example: Gazlowe from Heroes of the Storm.

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I'm pretty sure you can attack while mounted (might be wrong on that). I do know the PvP talent has a knockback when you run through targets and doubles its duration.

Attack While Mounted is a Class Hall research talent.

[Cuppy]

Tinker class - Can't use that right now. Can't use that here. Can't use that at all. Ever. Unless you are in draenor, alone in your garrison.

[Lochton]

Tinker class - Can't use that right now. Can't use that here. Can't use that at all. Ever. Unless you are in draenor, alone in your garrison.

That is sadly how many of the engineering themed items are cursed now...

[Ielenia]

Since everyone seems to be loving Mekkatorque in his steam suit, and walking around in the Sky Golem, it stands to reason that a class that pilots mechs would be a good way to go. Supporting that is the fact that Goblins and Gnomes have been attached to Steam suits for years, even before the release of WoW.

How would it play?

Option 1: Cooldown based- You ride in the suit for a few seconds ever 1-3 minutes.
Option 2: Resource based- You charge up your resource, summon your suit, wreck stuff, then your suit vanishes.
Option 3: Able to shift in and out of your suit at will, much like Druid forms.

#1 is, in my opinion, the most likely to be used, considering it's "generic" enough. Just a cooldown, though I think it'll have to behave differently than, for example, the Demon Hunter's cooldown. #2 is the second most likely, considering it shares the same resource management as Shadow Priests (build-up resource, unleash power to cause more damage while resource steadily depletes). #3, in my opinion, is just not going to happen, as, as far as I can see, it "intrudes" too much into Druid "territory".

If it fits the class, I don't see why they wouldn't.

Balancing, most likely. Also design time.

It can also be easily argued that a technology-based alternative to Druids would be good for the game, and help popularize the newer class.

Or cheapen the Druid's uniqueness. Being "tech-based" is already more than unique enough on its own, no need to try to steal other classes' shtick.

I don't think the possibility of this class being spread to other races is an issue.

If a class gets "full customization" based on race, it diminishes the possibility of that class ever being opened to other races, as it wouldn't just be a small change, but actually a big endeavor to design a new "customization" for the new race being added.